Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[Biffins]

I totally get the criticism with regard to the draft, FA signings/misses and even letting Tom walk. I don't necessarily agree with some of the individual points but whatever....

But the calls for BB's head and removal as GM and/or HC is pure bat-**** crazy.

Give the man a chance to rebuild. Hes the most qualified coach/executive in the NFL at rebuilding/flipping a roster and managing a salary cap.

Why is the call of removing BB as GM batshit crazy? He’a drafted horribly for years. And whiffed on trades repeatedly lately with this Sanu disaster being the latest. The team composition sucks today (including the decision to let Brady walk) because we made some horrible front office decisions.

 

[Biffins]

If Belichick had been running the show in Tampa Bay, they wouldn't have the same talent because Belichick has proven he can't draft a decent wide receiver if his life depended on it. Evans, Godwin and Miller were all draft picks. Even Tyler Johnson and Justin Watson look decent. Belichick simply cannot evaluate the position; it's been one bum after another. Belichick also wouldn't sign off on taking shots down the field like Arians. The narrative around Brady for past few seasons was he could no longer throw the deep ball... this season he's one Long Pass Play (>25) behind league leader Mahomes (Brady has 36 completions >25 yards).

Also, how many has-been veteran wide receivers has Belichick brought into camp over the past decade? It's a lengthy list for sure and pretty much none of them have worked out. You have to go all the way back to 2007 as the only season Belichick did anything to surround Brady with a high-powered WR group. Even then, Moss at the time was considered a disgruntled, possibly declining receiver, and we got him on the cheap. Welker was unproven in Miami. Brady only had two seasons with Moss, and the second he was coming back from the torn ACL, even still Moss led the league in TD receptions both seasons (of course setting an NFL record in 2007). Welker had his best seasons with Brady, leading the league in receptions three times. Moss and Welker are the only two pro bowl receivers Brady has ever had and combined he had only seven seasons with them (Moss 2 and Welker 5). By contract Payton Manning had a combined 25 seasons with Wayne (14) and Harrison (11).

Belichick's treatment of Brady over the last few seasons was a travesty. He surrounded Brady with diminishing talent and limited returns which he would then use against Brady in terms of contractual incentives. By the start of the 2019 season, Brady knew it would be his last in New England and he knew the team wasn't good enough anymore (as a result of Belichick's poor roster construction). It's no coincidence the team goes in the toilet the very first season Brady leaves town; just as it's no coincidence that Belichick was 5-13 to start his career in NE without Brady and then 11-3 and winning his first Super Bowl with Brady.

And of course Brady became a better quarterback, with improved skills, as he became more experienced with seasons behind him. Generally that's how it works. He's always been clutch but he was no slouch otherwise earlier in his career. He led the league in TD passes in 2002 and yardage in 2005. He was a pro bowler in 2001, 2004 and 2005. Obviously he wasn't the GOAT after a handful of seasons; he had to build that resume over time. He earned the label after beating Seattle in SB 49; since then he's only piled on considerably. What he's doing now with a new team in Tampa Bay, at age 43, in the midst of all the COVID chaos, is remarkable. By contrast, Belichick has had an utterly dreadful season. He has no quarterback, an otherwise limited roster, has been outcoached repeatedly, even his precious special teams are getting embarrassed, and now the entire team quit on him under a national spotlight.

Frankly I would go a step further and argue that BB ignoring Brady’s and the offense’s requirements and focusing solely on the secondary initially and the overall defense lately is not just a tactical mistake but nepotism. He brought in high priced Gilmore, brought in Jason McCourty, and safety acquisitions and kept putting high draft picks into the secondary for 4th and 5th luxury CB backups when it wasn’t clear it was needed. He invested in and made the secondary the best in the league, and made his frickin son look like a genius.

Well I’d look like a genius too if my position group had the highest cap hit and draft capital invested in the league.

BB wanted his son to look good and he did. Another reason to remove him as GM.

 

[Biffins]

BB as a coach and GM puts him in really unique category. Evaluating players, considering how to use them in specific schemes, calculating their market and draft comp value based on economics, and then using them on Sundays is unique.

I don’t think you can really separate BB as a coach and GM...both roles are unified since he has full control over every aspect of the team. And I think this is why personnel guys and coaches have had limited success elsewhere, or at least not even close to the success of BB. Some GMs understand value well (Newsome); some coaches have mastered Xs and Os (Reid), but I can’t think of any who can see all of it at once.

My only criticism of BB is that it’s time to do what he did so often for the first fifteen years in NE and adapt. The league no longer requires teams to outthink opponents like in 2001, the offense can’t be so complex that no college receiver can come into in it, and it seems that loyalties or familiarity with guys like McDaniels, Caserio, etc. have caused him to sort of stay in neutral.

Bill clearly needs some new influences when an offensive coordinator who has been there for 20 years cannot find out single free agent or draft pick that fits at WR or TE. And in terms of Caserio, I kind of backed off saying he should be fired two years ago and now wish I’d petitioned the team. The guy clearly cannot evaluate talent, and it’s well beyond a statistical aberration. The 2018 Super Bowl team was mainly built from 2010-14...it’s been over five years of head scratching personnel moves that’s caught up to them. The down season here doesn’t concern me; the ongoing personnel failures, which seem to have have become the process, is what concerns me. Time to change things up and rebuild with some fresh ideas.

And The blame for those personnel failures sits with BB the GM

 

[DropKickFlutie]

It's a silly question, really, because without a Franchise QB even the best HC's are going to put up mediocre to pretty good numbers at best.

The real question is what the HC did with the talent when he had a Franchise QB.

Shula had ten seasons with Marino and didn't win a single SB (though he won one with Morrall). Plus, seven with Unitas, winning none.
Dungy had seven with P. Manning and won one.
Walsh, eight with Montana and won three.
Noll, 13 with Bradshaw and won four.
Landry, eight with Staubach and won two.
Lombardi, nine with Starr and won two SB's and two NFL Championships.
Johnson, five with Aikman and won three...fired in the greatest miscarriage of management until Daniel Snyder and Woody Johnson acquired franchises.

Belichick, 18 seasons with Brady as QB, won six and went to nine.

Pretty difficult not to put Belichick at the head of the HC class and Brady at the head of the QB class. It's impossible to make an argument for who was more important. They both were.

PS: Too bad that that idiot Jerry Jones cut Jimmy Johnson off at the knees. We'll never know...

Excellent points here. I've felt we left a couple rings on the table but going to 9 and winning 6 is unprecedented.

 

[Biffins]

The above is correct. Bill is a great coach, no question about it. But Brady was the secret sauce that made them SB winners. Bill made the pats a perennial playoff team and Brady put them over the top consistently. Bill simply doesn't win 6 SBs without Brady. Without Brady Bill is still a great coach, but I don't think anyone would be throwing around the word genius like they do with Bill now.

What’s the basis or evidence you have to claim that Bill is a great coach without Brady? Gut instinct? Eye balling? The stats don’t support this assertion.

 

[Biffins]

BB as a coach and GM puts him in really unique category. Evaluating players, considering how to use them in specific schemes, calculating their market and draft comp value based on economics, and then using them on Sundays is unique.

I don’t think you can really separate BB as a coach and GM...both roles are unified since he has full control over every aspect of the team. And I think this is why personnel guys and coaches have had limited success elsewhere, or at least not even close to the success of BB. Some GMs understand value well (Newsome); some coaches have mastered Xs and Os (Reid), but I can’t think of any who can see all of it at once.

My only criticism of BB is that it’s time to do what he did so often for the first fifteen years in NE and adapt. The league no longer requires teams to outthink opponents like in 2001, the offense can’t be so complex that no college receiver can come into in it, and it seems that loyalties or familiarity with guys like McDaniels, Caserio, etc. have caused him to sort of stay in neutral.

Bill clearly needs some new influences when an offensive coordinator who has been there for 20 years cannot find out single free agent or draft pick that fits at WR or TE. And in terms of Caserio, I kind of backed off saying he should be fired two years ago and now wish I’d petitioned the team. The guy clearly cannot evaluate talent, and it’s well beyond a statistical aberration. The 2018 Super Bowl team was mainly built from 2010-14...it’s been over five years of head scratching personnel moves that’s caught up to them. The down season here doesn’t concern me; the ongoing personnel failures, which seem to have have become the process, is what concerns me. Time to change things up and rebuild with some fresh ideas.

It’s not obvious to me that BB is a great HC or a great GM. No need to separate.

He’s just a grumpy football historian, with encyclopedic knowledge, who had Brady for QB. At best you can say he’s a good DC. There’s some evidence for that.

 

[Biffins]

Half the teams Bill build the last 20 years, wouldn’t have made the playoffs if he didn’t have Brady.

More than half

 

[catent]

Brady looks as great as ever; no drop-off in his play whatsoever. His accuracy is excellent at all levels. He could have thrown for 700 yards against Detroit had Arians not pulled him at the half. You know Brady didn't want to come out of the game. With 4 TD passes next weekend he'll finish with 40 which would be second most of his career.

Belichick totally blew it with Brady. Complete miscalculation of how long Brady could perform at an elite level. With Brady coming out of an MVP season, Belichick had the offense trending conservative, run first, play action, like he was protecting a declining limited quarterback. Belichick also failed to surround Brady with enough (or any) talent which further limited the offense...no adequate replacement for Gronk, whiffed as usual on a WR draft pick, let guys like Amendola leave via free agency. Brady got sick of Belichick treating him like Trent Dilfer. Now Brady is making Belichick look like a total fool. That's how I see it. It's the growing narrative nationally. Only blind-faith Belichick supporters choose to see it otherwise.

"Only blind-faith Belichick supporters choose to see it otherwise".

That's a great way to present your opinion, ya know, by immediately alienating and vilifying anyone who has a different analysis than you.

 

[Biffins]

Bill is an all time great coach.

You make it sound self-evident. When we’re asserting he might not be even an average HC. He just had Brady, that’s all.

 

[Biffins]

Because the excuse is it's a "bridge" or "rebuilding" year after loses in Free Agency and COVID. Like HT/Chung were going to fix the D all by themselves and Vitale/Marquise Lee were the saviors on Offense.

Bill's excuse of "selling out" is my favorite as there were hardly any big contracts on this team. Surprised the media haven't challenge him on this. Colin Cowherd is the only talking head that has questioned where the money is on his show after looking at the salaries on the roster. He's in the position he's in because he drafts terribly, then has to use future draft capital or waste money in FA on veterans to stop the bleeding. They leave and we're back to square 1.

These are years of f*** ups by Bill that's starting to show up as I predicted well before the season. The media is finally starting to go back in time and realize Bill the GM hasn't been so great contrary to the average fan's belief.

Another overlooked trait of Bill is that he has a terrible habit of ignoring needs while hoarding players that weren't needed and don't last on the team (See 2019/2020 using early picks on DB's when the O was in dire need of playmakers). Tom covered that up for years, but that won't work anymore.


7 for me. It started again in 2013. No Pro Bowlers drafted since 2013. NONE! I would bet anybody on this board could've drafted at least one Pro Bowl player.

yeah well hus son was defensive backs coach and needed a leg-up on his career ladder and daddy GM helped him out with some pieces!!

 

[Biffins]

Why does everyone admit that the talent level here is an issue but wants to put no blame on Bill for the lack of talent?

exactly, BB has failed as GM

 

[catent]

Brady went to a team that hasn’t made the playoffs in 13 years. Bill’s team hasn’t missed the playoffs in 12 years. Brady’s team is now in the playoffs. Bill’s team is now out of the playoffs. The common denominator with the teams that make the playoffs is Brady.

You just laid out some abstract facts in a vacuum, without any of the contextual, relevant details provided, as you were quoting the very person who provided said contextual details.

To claim that Brady = playoffs, Belichick /=/ playoffs, without any regard for anything else (including the circumstances/personnel, etc) is useless. It's a good example of correlation /=/ causation, and disregards a lot of the other important variables.

 

[Biffins]

There never should have been a debate.

This isn’t like deciding between John Lennon and Paul McCartney. It’s like deciding between John Lennon and George Martin (their producer who was instrumental in arranging their records and bringing them to stardom.)

Lennon versus McCarthy, in terms of overall value. is an interesting discussion; Lennon versus Martin is not. Like with Brady and Belichick, they are supposed to make each other better since they are in fundamentally different professions even with the same end goal. One is concerned with creating and performing music; the other is concerned with arranging that music with consideration to the audience.

Brady to Manning/Montana and Belichick to Walsh/Brown are valid value comparisons, even if difficult. Brady to Belichick is nonsensical.

Lennon and McCartney had some solo hits. So did George Harrison. Ringo didn’t. Noone says Ringo was the most valuable Beatle.

Let’s see what BB does solo. It’s been crap so far. Brady is having some hits solo.

All evidence points to BB having no hits ever with Brady. BB would have been better off nursing his legacy by keeping Brady all the way. Now he’ll get exposed.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Frankly I would go a step further and argue that BB ignoring Brady’s and the offense’s requirements and focusing solely on the secondary initially and the overall defense lately is not just a tactical mistake but nepotism. He brought in high priced Gilmore, brought in Jason McCourty, and safety acquisitions and kept putting high draft picks into the secondary for 4th and 5th luxury CB backups when it wasn’t clear it was needed. He invested in and made the secondary the best in the league, and made his frickin son look like a genius.

Well I’d look like a genius too if my position group had the highest cap hit and draft capital invested in the league.

BB wanted his son to look good and he did. Another reason to remove him as GM.

I think this is way off. BB spent a lot on a 2nd for Sanu and a 1st for NKeal Harry. A high pick for Dobson and Sony. It's just been that the opinions from his OC are terrible and so those high draft choices haven't panned out.... he also spent major $ on Thuney, Mason, Cannon and a 1st on Wynn...

.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Lennon and McCartney had some solo hits. So did George Harrison. Ringo didn’t. Noone says Ringo was the most valuable Beatle.

Let’s see what BB does solo. It’s been crap so far. Brady is having some hits solo.

All evidence points to BB having no hits ever with Brady. BB would have been better off nursing his legacy by keeping Brady all the way. Now he’ll get exposed.

The one exposed here is Josh McDaniels. He's failed 3 separate times without Brady - Denver, St Louis, and this season. He's trying to grab a new job before people realize he's nothing without Brady.

.

 

[Biffins]

The most humorous defense of Belichick, that's gaining momentum lately due to all of the other excuses fizzling out, is that "a lesser coach would have gone 1-15" with this sad sack of players. They've had losing streaks of 4 and currently 3 games... that's not reflective of a well-coached team. Good coaching is able to make adjustments from game to game that make a difference. Belichick and the entire coaching staff were thoroughly overmatched by McDermott and company the other night. And that wasn't the first this season that they got spanked by the opposition. What game(s) would they have lost this season if not for Belichick's coaching?

Not to mention that it would be asserting that BB the GM had put together a group of players worth 1-15 record on paper. Why isn’t he getting sacked as GM then?!?!?!

 

[catent]

View attachment 29572

Good call, Bob.

Agreed, it was a good call.

Brown is mentally unstable and has allegedly done some pretty heinous things. I don't want him near the team I root for (nor the NFL as a whole).

... and, what he's scored, what, one single, solitary touchdown in ... how many games?

 

[Biffins]

No that’s reflective of a team that has a bad QB and a weak defense. Nothing more.

Good coaching with a bad team still won’t win many games. But good coaching will maximize what they have and in the case of the 2020 Patriots that seems to equal 7 wins or so.

I don’t think that’s all that difficult to understand. I mean you really don’t think this team is good do you?

So you admit BB sucks as GM at least.

 

[Biffins]

I think this is way off. BB spent a lot on a 2nd for Sanu and a 1st for NKeal Harry. A high pick for Dobson and Sony. It's just been that the opinions from his OC are terrible and so those high draft choices haven't panned out.... he also spent major $ on Thuney, Mason, Cannon and a 1st on Wynn...

.

Pats have had the highest or one of the highest cap hit invested in secondary for last 5 years consistently. Look it up.

Don’t tell me that doesn’t help a secondary position coach.

 

[Biffins]

You just laid out some abstract facts in a vacuum, without any of the contextual, relevant details provided, as you were quoting the very person who provided said contextual details.

To claim that Brady = playoffs, Belichick /=/ playoffs, without any regard for anything else (including the circumstances/personnel, etc) is useless. It's a good example of correlation /=/ causation, and disregards a lot of the other important variables.

Are you saying BB’s 135 games as HC without Brady is insufficient to judge him? How many would be sufficient?