Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[JPsPats]

The vice versa is true as well.

to a much lesser extent I think. We see great players drag a mediocre coach to the playoffs all the time.

Rarely do we see great coaches drag a bunch of mediocre players to the playoffs. BB is 0-2 in taking the pats to the playoffs when Brady is not under center the full season.

I don’t care about 11–5 in 2008, because with Brady we prob got 15-1 or 16-0 again.

Also in basketball it didn’t matter how bad the coach was Lebron was always going to the finals. Players are more important in the grand scheme of it.

 

[sb1]

I think its short sighted to look at this year and make any assumptions vs. a 20 year sample. What if brady goes one and done or never wins a super-bowl in tampa, what if Bill gets to 11 wins next year with an improved roster then is he back in the lead?

It was the combination of Bill and Brady who made the patriots what they were over 20 years. Bill doesnt win 6 super bowls without brady, but Brady also doesnt win 6 superbowls without Bill IMO. it was that combination of great QB play and great coaching that got the Pats to 9 superbowls and winning 6

the only thing this year does hopefully is dispel the stupid "brady is a system QB" nonsense people would spout to show hes not a good QB. Brady with a new team is still Brady.

It does put that argument to bed. I don’t think other fans really believed that anyway it’s just to troll us.

 

[JPsPats]

Let’s not put Kerr in a great coach category and Pop ain’t sniffing another playoff without Timmy. Phil Jackson refused to coach without top 5 players so we don’t know how he’d fare either

Exactly my point. It’s always been more about the players. Coaching is obviously an important facet of a team, but if you don’t have the players it doesn’t matter how good of a coach you have.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

There is much more pressure on Brady to win in Tampa with that roster than there is on Belichick right now. You can argue that Brady is 43 years old blah blah blah, but he's got a loaded roster and has no excuses if he doesn't get far in the playoffs in the next couple of years. You all have been thumping your chest about him defying his age ALL YEAR, so if he gets bounced early in the playoffs there is no excuse. You can't revert back and say, "well, he's 43 years old"...

no excuses?

Hes 43 years old
On a brand new team after 20 years being a Patriot
New offensive system
New head coach
New offensive coordinator
New teammates
No offseason program
No training camp
No preseason
Revolving door at WR with injuries at the beginning of the year

Plenty of excuses, although Brady doesn't make excuses but he certainly has plenty of them. People made excuses for Aaron Rodgers last year having a SUCK year on him having a new coach and coordinator, and having to learn a "new" system (with all of his same players hes had). He had a full offseason, training camp and preseason... and did horrible. People made excuses for him, so you can certainly make excuses for Brady this year, which has been unprecedented in terms of challenges and how teams have had to approach the season


"much more pressure on Brady to win in Tampa with that roster."

You mean the roster that had a losing record last year and hasn't made the playoffs since the Warren Sapp days? He's not taking over a perennial contender team, he was taking over a doormat team at the bottom of their division for the last 2 decades

There is no pressure whatsoever on Brady.. his legacy is fully intact and secure, anyone who tries to define his 20+ year career by the last few tail end years at 43+ is not someone that you have to take seriously.

 

[crawhammer]

we have to acknowledge Brady isn't Tim Duncan or Shaq, he barely made it into the NFL. Belichick gets all the credit for the fact Brady even has a career. Just like Edelman, Meyers, JC Jackson, Malcolm Butler owe their careers as well. Without Belichick Tom likely is selling insurance for his dad's company starting in 2002 or 2003.

1. That Brady came to be what he is, the most accomplished NFL player ever, is all the more impressive on his behalf that he's accomplished it as a mere late round flier. Belichick had no clue Brady would ever amount to what he has drafting him in the 6th round.

2. If Edelman owes his career to anyone, it's Brady. And Meyers has accomplished absolutely nothing thus far, comparatively, so I'm not sure what "career" you're referring to.

3. Belichick totally f'd over Malcolm Butler, the entire Patriots franchise, and the fan base (all of us on this forum) with Malcolm's benching for SB 52. So whatever Malcolm may owe Belichick for giving him a shot to play, the debt was covered with the SB 49 pick and SB 52 BS.

 

[RobertWeathers]

1. That Brady came to be what he is, the most accomplished NFL player ever, is all the more impressive on his behalf that he's accomplished it as a mere late round flier. Belichick had no clue Brady would ever amount to what he has drafting him in the 6th round.

2. If Edelman owes his career to anyone, it's Brady. And Meyers has accomplished absolutely nothing thus far, comparatively, so I'm not sure what "career" you're referring to.

3. Belichick totally f'd over Malcolm Butler, the entire Patriots franchise, and the fan base (all of us on this forum) with Malcolm's benching for SB 52. So whatever Malcolm may owe Belichick for giving him a shot to play, the debt was covered with the SB 49 pick and SB 52 BS.

To paraphrase.

1, Bill deserves no credit for drafting and developing Brady
2. Bill deserves no credit for drafting and developing Edelman
3. Bill deserves all the blame for screwing over Butler and the entire NEP franchise even though A) Butler admitted he wasn't prepared to play the game and B) before he became HC the franchise it had a losing record and zero Super Bowl championships.

If you want to piss on BB for sub-standard drafts, bad FA signings, etc i'd agree with you but to basically say hes been the KC Jones equivalent for the 2000-2019 NEP you are way out of line.

 

[lancerman]

I may give you Manning, but this year's Bucs teams is better in paper than Favre's Vikings and Montana's Chiefs by a long shot.
Favre had very little talent around him compared to what Brady has in Tampa - Brown, Gronk, Evans, Godwin, Brate, McCoy, Jones, and Fournette. Is this even a question?

Montana’s Chiefs played in the AFC in the early 90’s when that conference was hot garbage.

 

[crawhammer]

So Bill's legacy is on the line but Tom's is not? if anything, Tom needs to go deep into the playoffs to show he can do it without Bill. Montana did it on another team. So did Manning. So did Favre. Brady’s regular season success doesn't count since the Bucs are playing a ridiculously easy schedule, and when they play a tough team they end up losing more often than not.

Brady obviously is at a huge disadvantage now, trying to be successful with an entirely new team while being past his prime. This is just a blatantly obvious fact. Had he left before the 2010 season, when he was 33, and not 43, and in his prime, then yes you could have held him to his peak standard. What he's doing is unprecedented. None of those quarterbacks you mention started up with a new team at age 43. Montana retired at 37. Favre was a turnover machine and choke artist for much of his career, any age. Manning was completely spent at 39 and Denver won SB 50 despite him.

Age obviously is not applicable with regard to judging Belichick. So it's fair to hold him to the highest standard. Thus far he's falling flat on his face, and unless he has a miraculous off-season, things aren't going to get much better anytime soon, which will legitimately wither his legacy.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Having the best player in any sport is much more valuable than having the best coach.

Belichick is among the greatest football leaders ever (as both coach and GM), and his approach to economic-based value for players and opponent-based value for gameplans is incredible. That said, this provides the “extra edge” when it comes to winning, and it isn’t the other way around. Without a great QB, this is all futile. But this reality seems to be hitting those hard if they didn’t already realize it, despite every sports dynasty confirming the same thing.

 

[crawhammer]

To paraphrase.

1, Bill deserves no credit for drafting and developing Brady
2. Bill deserves no credit for drafting and developing Edelman
3. Bill deserves all the blame for screwing over Butler and the entire NEP franchise even though A) Butler admitted he wasn't prepared to play the game and B) before he became HC the franchise it had a losing record and zero Super Bowl championships.

If you want to piss on BB for sub-standard drafts, bad FA signings, etc i'd agree with you but to basically say hes been the KC Jones equivalent for the 2000-2019 NEP you are way out of line.

Regarding 1 & 2, obviously Belichick and the coaching staff get some credit for the development (or lack thereof) of any player. However, had Brady been drafted into another organization, he still would have been great, but obviously this is mostly hypothetical. Although, we're getting at least a snippet of what a 43-year-old Brady can do elsewhere, and so far he's mostly been pretty impressive.

Regarding 3A, yes Belichick completely f'd over the entire Patriots franchise and fan base. His attempt to humiliate Malcolm completely blew up in his face. That decision cost the team a Super Bowl.

Regarding 3B, the winning didn't start until Brady became the starter and it ended abruptly once he left. I'm betting that's not a coincidence.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Regarding 1 & 2, obviously Belichick and the coaching staff get some credit for the development (or lack thereof) of any player. However, had Brady been drafted into another organization, he still would have been great, but obviously this is mostly hypothetical. Although, we're getting at least a snippet of what a 43-year-old Brady can do elsewhere, and so far he's mostly been pretty impressive.

Regarding 3A, yes Belichick completely f'd over the entire Patriots franchise and fan base. His attempt to humiliate Malcolm completely blew up in his face. That decision cost the team a Super Bowl.

Regarding 3B, the winning didn't start until Brady became the starter and it ended abruptly once he left. I'm betting that's not a coincidence.

Malcolm stated publicly he was not prepared nor was in the right mindset to play the game. Why on earth would BB play him?

If you want to point fingers, point them at Malcolm

 

[TheRainMaker]

Malcolm stated publicly he was not prepared nor was in the right mindset to play the game. Why on earth would BB play him?

If you want to point fingers, point them at Malcolm

I think he was just being politically correct. But didn't he say he was also shocked he wasn't going to play? And why did BB even suit him up? If he knew this, he wouldn't have been crying on the sidelines as it was reported he learned he wasn't going to play right before kickoff. We may get the truth some day of how he really feels - see Asante Samuel.

 

[sb1]

Brady obviously is at a huge disadvantage now, trying to be successful with an entirely new team while being past his prime. This is just a blatantly obvious fact. Had he left before the 2010 season, when he was 33, and not 43, and in his prime, then yes you could have held him to his peak standard. What he's doing is unprecedented. None of those quarterbacks you mention started up with a new team at age 43. Montana retired at 37. Favre was a turnover machine and choke artist for much of his career, any age. Manning was completely spent at 39 and Denver won SB 50 despite him.

Age obviously is not applicable with regard to judging Belichick. So it's fair to hold him to the highest standard. Thus far he's falling flat on his face, and unless he has a miraculous off-season, things aren't going to get much better anytime soon, which will legitimately wither his legacy.

No it won’t.

I doubt this year’s Pats win more than one game with a lesser HC than Belichick. So is that really falling flat on his face?

Totally agree about Butler though. I wish we knew the real reason why he didn’t play. I’m not buying the explanations I’ve heard so far.

 

[JMC00]

Can you people just go to the Tampa Bay forums? It's clear you are just Brady nuthuggers with how you use this year as the definitive answer in Belichick vs Brady.

Get the f**k out here with this "Brady went to a new team" sh!t. Brady went to a stacked offensive team and even brought in his guys Gronk and Brown. An offense in which just last year Jameis Winston threw for 5100 yards and 33 TD. It's hilarious how you use "new team" to COPE when people bring up how Brady has **** the bed against the Saints 2x, Rams, Chiefs and the f**king Bears. Yet run to this forum hailing him the "victor" in Belichick vs Brady when he beats up on teams like the Chargers and Raiders or when he makes a comeback against the Falcons who have choked games they had a 95%+ probability of winning against the Lions, Cowboys and Bears. Imagine how much you suck to choke games to those 3 teams this year.

Fact that you people don't want to hear any argument about how they needed a cap reset and a rebuild after being 3 points away from being in 5 straight SBs just proves you made up your mind before Brady even left.

 

[JMC00]

I doubt this year’s Pats win more than one game with a lesser HC than Belichick.

If Pats would have gotten 65% of 2017 Cam Newton , Monday night would be for the division.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think he was just being politically correct. But didn't he say he was also shocked he wasn't going to play? And why did BB even suit him up? If he knew this, he wouldn't have been crying on the sidelines as it was reported he learned he wasn't going to play right before kickoff. We may get the truth some day of how he really feels - see Asante Samuel.

Everyone knew Malcolm wasn't a big part of the game plan. Malcolm was on the 3rd team for the two practices he participated.

As you say there are reasons why that was the case. What they were no one knows.

I have no idea why Malcolm said what he did. in my view for a player to admit they weren't focused to play in the Super Bowl is incredible and damming. He never made excuses or blamed anyone else and I give him credit for that. He just said he wasn't mentally ready to play. Whether it was due to sickness, partying, attitude, fight with BB Jr....no idea.

 

[sb1]

Can you people just go to the Tampa Bay forums? It's clear you are just Brady nuthuggers with how you use this year as the definitive answer in Belichick vs Brady.

Get the f**k out here with this "Brady went to a new team" sh!t. Brady went to a stacked offensive team and even brought in his guys Gronk and Brown. An offense in which just last year Jameis Winston threw for 5100 yards and 33 TD. It's hilarious how you use "new team" to COPE when people bring up how Brady has **** the bed against the Saints 2x, Rams, Chiefs and the f**king Bears. Yet run to this forum hailing him the "victor" in Belichick vs Brady when he beats up on teams like the Chargers and Raiders or when he makes a comeback against the Falcons who have choked games they had a 95%+ probability of winning against the Lions, Cowboys and Bears. Imagine how much you suck to choke games to those 3 teams this year.

Fact that you people don't want to hear any argument about how they needed a cap reset and a rebuild after being 3 points away from being in 5 straight SBs just proves you made up your mind before Brady even left.

I’m not convinced the Pats make the playoffs if Brady stays. They probably do but it’s not a lock.

This defense who can’t stop a nosebleed keeps them out even with a serviceable passing game.

 

[Boston Boxer]

Regarding 1 & 2, obviously Belichick and the coaching staff get some credit for the development (or lack thereof) of any player. However, had Brady been drafted into another organization, he still would have been great, but obviously this is mostly hypothetical. Although, we're getting at least a snippet of what a 43-year-old Brady can do elsewhere, and so far he's mostly been pretty impressive.

Regarding 3A, yes Belichick completely f'd over the entire Patriots franchise and fan base. His attempt to humiliate Malcolm completely blew up in his face. That decision cost the team a Super Bowl.

Regarding 3B, the winning didn't start until Brady became the starter and it ended abruptly once he left. I'm betting that's not a coincidence.

obviously you are passionate about this topic. I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that if Brady had been drafted by another organization, he would have been great. He was pick number 199 and it is quite possible he goes undrafted. If he was drafted by another team, he might not even see the field. So, its not a forgone conclusion that he becomes what he is today. I think the Pats did a great job in playing to his strengths and grooming him.

Nobody knows what the circumstances were around the Malcolm Butler benching as nobody has come forward to tell the story. I would have figured by now that if in fact Butler was done wrong, he would have said something by now, The fact that he hasn't discussed it tells me he did something wrong and was punished. Just my take

I'm not sure the winning abruptly stopped once he left. He has been gone 14 games and yes, we are horrendous. But take into account all the missing pieces due to COVID and having to start over with a new QB with no offseason. That is a tall task for anyone. We would have been better with Brady this year for sure but i don't see how much better.

I am not saying you are wrong in your assumptions, I'm just thinking we wont know the answer for a few years. My bet is they were a great pair just like all the other great QB/Coach combos mentioned in this post.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

no excuses?

Hes 43 years old
On a brand new team after 20 years being a Patriot
New offensive system
New head coach
New offensive coordinator
New teammates
No offseason program
No training camp
No preseason
Revolving door at WR with injuries at the beginning of the year

Plenty of excuses, although Brady doesn't make excuses but he certainly has plenty of them. People made excuses for Aaron Rodgers last year having a SUCK year on him having a new coach and coordinator, and having to learn a "new" system (with all of his same players hes had). He had a full offseason, training camp and preseason... and did horrible. People made excuses for him, so you can certainly make excuses for Brady this year, which has been unprecedented in terms of challenges and how teams have had to approach the season


"much more pressure on Brady to win in Tampa with that roster."

You mean the roster that had a losing record last year and hasn't made the playoffs since the Warren Sapp days? He's not taking over a perennial contender team, he was taking over a doormat team at the bottom of their division for the last 2 decades

There is no pressure whatsoever on Brady.. his legacy is fully intact and secure, anyone who tries to define his 20+ year career by the last few tail end years at 43+ is not someone that you have to take seriously.

Look, you and the other Bradyites are saying how amazing he looks this season. He's playing like a 33-year-old, so therefore if he loses in the playoffs he ought to be evaluated as a 33-year-old. NO EXCUSES. As far as Tampa's record last year, they were 9-7. The Bucs this year will be 11-5 and therefore Brady would have added a whole 2 wins to that.

 

[sb1]

obviously you are passionate about this topic. I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that if Brady had been drafted by another organization, he would have been great. He was pick number 199 and it is quite possible he goes undrafted. If he was drafted by another team, he might not even see the field. So, its not a forgone conclusion that he becomes what he is today. I think the Pats did a great job in playing to his strengths and grooming him.

Nobody knows what the circumstances were around the Malcolm Butler benching as nobody has come forward to tell the story. I would have figured by now that if in fact Butler was done wrong, he would have said something by now, The fact that he hasn't discussed it tells me he did something wrong and was punished. Just my take

I'm not sure the winning abruptly stopped once he left. He has been gone 14 games and yes, we are horrendous. But take into account all the missing pieces due to COVID and having to start over with a new QB with no offseason. That is a tall task for anyone. We would have been better with Brady this year for sure but i don't see how much better.

I am not saying you are wrong in your assumptions, I'm just thinking we wont know the answer for a few years. My bet is they were a great pair just like all the other great QB/Coach combos mentioned in this post.

Butler should have played that night. Bill could have played him, Pats likely win the SB, and then if he needed to be punished, then tell him after the game to clean out his locker and give him his walking papers.