OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[Zarozzor]

Also Gronk still an absolute beast. He obviously was using those first 4-5 games a pre season since there was none this year. We won’t see him stiff arming and dragging 3+ defenders like we saw from 2011-2015 since his body has gone through so much but it looks like he’s getting some speed back now and he still catches everything near him. His two TD’s were vintage Gronk in the end zone. Not to mention his blocking is like having a 6th OL out there.

 

[JMC00]

and still lose because of the defense. They’ll never say anything, but I would wager that they were fuming.

To be fair to Belichick he went and righted that wrong the next season.

 

[XLIX]

The Patriots haven't been really good since 2016'ish.

LOL! How spoiled we are that you can take a 3-year span where they went 36-12, won 3 division titles, made it to 2 Super Bowls and won 1 of them, and refer to that time period as "haven't been really good."

 

[amfootball]

For me personally (and quite a few of the Brady supporters I’d wager) this all started with the Eagles Super Bowl. After that game I said screw this, Bill has something against Brady because the week prior he brushed off the question about his hand like it was no big deal. I mean they had been together 17 years, you would think he could have at least given him some props or something instead of saying “we’re not dealing with open heart surgery” Well obviously we know now that it was because of the book that came out this year. Knowing how messed up his hand was makes the comeback against the best defense in football with no Gronk or Edelman even more impressive.

Then on top of that all year he was ready to move on from Brady even though Brady had just won a Super Bowl the year prior and would go on to win Regular Season MVP in 2017. He obviously wanted Jimmy to be the quarterback for the Patriots by 2018.

Brady was probably already upset about them not committing to him for multiple years prior to that Super Bowl, but then Bill goes and benches Butler while Brady and Gronk put up a historical performance and still lose because of the defense. They’ll never say anything, but I would wager that they were fuming.

I’ve always been on the Brady side of this, even more so since that game. Bill is a great coach but we are going to see what it’s like when he doesn’t have Tom covering up massive holes and getting 12+ wins every single year because you have the luxury of the GOAT.

Good summation. Pretty spot on. Bill royally screwed up starting in '17 and that pretty much ruined Brady finishing here. Why on earth Bill was so eager to push Brady out when he was playing the best football of his career, I will never ever understand. At 43, he is in the MVP convo. What a colossal screw up. It cannot be emphasized enough seeing what Brady is doing right now and where the Pats are.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I don't know, man. This is pretty harsh.

I just don't get why it's this either/or thing. Why the need to trash Belichick? He's demonstrated himself to be a darn good coach, arguably the best ... they just don't have enough talent at some crucial spots.

I mean, imagine saying the Patriots will never be special again. That's pretty absurd. Look at the Bucs -- perennial dumpster fire that has received a shot in the arm from a top tier QB and some talent on both sides of the ball. At least for this season, they're special. There's nothing different about the Patriots -- get them a good QB and some talent and they'll perform really well with the coach they have.

Moronic to opt for Belichick over Brady long-term? I certainly don't consider sticking with the coach who's brought you 6 Super Bowls and is probably looking to coach another 8-12 years moronic, when compared to keeping a QB who's looking at 4-5 years left in his career.

It's an unfortunate situation and I wish things had been handled differently and Tom was still here. I really do. But the reactionary, binary, either/or mentality is a large part of what's been ruining this forum recently.

It was supposed to be harsh against Kraft, not Belichick. Belichick does everything possible to win and is the best coach in the league. But he's a coach, not a player, and certainly not the greatest player ever. If Belichick and Brady were at odds and there was no way to save the relationship, it's up to the owner to choose which guy remains and which guy goes. I thought it was beyond absurd that every pundit would just say that, because of Brady's age, you have to choose Belichick. No way...

We'll see if Belichick coaches for another 8-12 years. If Brady plays 4-5 more seasons, even that 8-12 is a terrible value return.

Hey, before this season, we heard all about how having the GOAT coach means that the team will always be competitive, that the dropoff at QB will never be that bad because of smart offensive philosophy, how the team would always show tremendous heart and never stop playing hard. How they had a huge built-in advantage due to having superior coaching. That stuff is pretty much bunk and it's time to start facing some realities. Coaching isn't magic. It can give minor advantages, but it doesn't take an otherwise 7-win roster and make them 12-4. Tom Brady does that.

 

[NYCPATS4LIFE]

Three things still give me pause:
1) OL (especially LT)
2) Bruce Arians
3) D is still inconsistent... they shut down one team and give up 30 points to another

But Brady looks amazing... Gronk is showing signs of life and AB is going to open up the middle of the field and running lanes for the backs

Their secondary is what can keep them from getting to the super bowl. Their run defense is scary good though. Have to be more consistent on defense. They will score a ton of points soon.

 

[catent]

For me personally (and quite a few of the Brady supporters I’d wager) this all started with the Eagles Super Bowl. After that game I said screw this, Bill has something against Brady because the week prior he brushed off the question about his hand like it was no big deal. I mean they had been together 17 years, you would think he could have at least given him some props or something instead of saying “we’re not dealing with open heart surgery” Well obviously we know now that it was because of the book that came out this year. Knowing how messed up his hand was makes the comeback against the best defense in football with no Gronk or Edelman even more impressive.

Then on top of that all year he was ready to move on from Brady even though Brady had just won a Super Bowl the year prior and would go on to win Regular Season MVP in 2017. He obviously wanted Jimmy to be the quarterback for the Patriots by 2018.

Brady was probably already upset about them not committing to him for multiple years prior to that Super Bowl, but then Bill goes and benches Butler while Brady and Gronk put up a historical performance and still lose because of the defense. They’ll never say anything, but I would wager that they were fuming.

I’ve always been on the Brady side of this, even more so since that game. Bill is a great coach but we are going to see what it’s like when he doesn’t have Tom covering up massive holes and getting 12+ wins every single year because you have the luxury of the GOAT.

Fair enough, I really appreciate this thoughtful response. I agree Belichick could've been more praiseworthy of Brady and treated him better from a PR perspective (at times). My hunch is that he thought the more standoffish, cold approach may press the right buttons for Brady from a motivation perspective, but perhaps he miscalculated.

As for your last statement about 12+ wins every season ... that's tricky. You saw basically the same team last year as this year (with a bit more defensive talent + Brady) and they were barely a 12-win team ... and you saw the 2018 record the year prior. Even with Brady they were pretty meh the past few seasons for the reasons I mentioned -- there are some big holes in talent/production across the roster outside of QB. Brady carried them to an extent, and the continuity at QB/OC definitely gave them a floor of basically 10-11 wins per season, but the razor-thin margins and postseason success had a lot to do with Belichick, too.

Basically my point is, when the Patriots were really freaking good, it was because they had a great QB and a great rest of the roster. If you only have a great QB but a poor roster (like 2018 and 2019), or a poor QB and a poor roster (like this season) you're going to struggle.

 

[catent]

It was supposed to be harsh against Kraft, not Belichick. Belichick does everything possible to win and is the best coach in the league. But he's a coach, not a player, and certainly not the greatest player ever. If Belichick and Brady were at odds and there was no way to save the relationship, it's up to the owner to choose which guy remains and which guy goes. I thought it was beyond absurd that every pundit would just say that, because of Brady's age, you have to choose Belichick. No way...

We'll see if Belichick coaches for another 8-12 years. If Brady plays 4-5 more seasons, even that 8-12 is a terrible value return.

Hey, before this season, we heard all about how having the GOAT coach means that the team will always be competitive, that the dropoff at QB will never be that bad because of smart offensive philosophy, how the team would always show tremendous heart and never stop playing hard. How they had a huge built-in advantage due to having superior coaching. That stuff is pretty much bunk and it's time to start facing some realities. Coaching isn't magic. It can give minor advantages, but it doesn't take an otherwise 7-win roster and make them 12-4. Tom Brady does that.

I don't think this season's team is looking at 12 wins even with Tom. Can't stop the run and have no offensive play-makers.

My best guess is that Brady generally gave them a floor of about 10-11 wins per season.

 

[NYCPATS4LIFE]

Fair enough, I really appreciate this thoughtful response. I agree Belichick could've been more praiseworthy of Brady and treated him better from a PR perspective (at times). My hunch is that he thought the more standoffish, cold approach may press the right buttons for Brady, but perhaps he miscalculated.

As for your last statement about 12+ wins every season ... that's tricky. You saw basically the same team last year as this year (with a bit more defensive talent + Brady) and they were barely a 12-win team ... and you saw the 2018 record the year prior. Even with Brady they were pretty meh the past few seasons for the reasons I mentioned -- there are some big holes in talent/production across the roster outside of QB. Brady carried them to an extent, and the continuity at QB/OC definitely gave them a floor of basically 9-10 wins per season, but the razor-thin margins and postseason success had a lot to do with Belichick, too.

Basically my point is, when the Patriots were really freaking good, it was because they had a great QB and a great rest of the roster. If you only have a great QB but a poor roster (like 2018 and 2019), or a poor QB and a poor roster (like this season) you're going to struggle.

They tried to scheme around a great QB. Anyone who had a clue knew the personnel was terrible last year. Brady had started the season well when guys like josh gordon where contributing. This franchise needs scouts who can see offensive talent.

 

[NYCPATS4LIFE]

I don't think this season's team is looking at 12 wins even with Tom. Can't stop the run and have no offensive play-makers.

My best guess is that Brady generally gave them a floor of about 10-11 wins per season.

They wouldn’t look this bad though. They would compete somewhat. Scheme around the talent. I don’t know if jules has checked out or is injured. Idk.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Much love PB12 but:

1) OL has lowest sack rate in the league
2) It's pretty clear Arians has been willing to adapt to accommodate the GOAT
3) Bucs have a top 3 defense making Bucs one of most complete teams in NFL.

Please admit you were wrong about Gronk. He just needed a little time to get NFL game ready. I see him getting even better as the season goes on with TB12 getting more comfortable with the WRs and AB coming in.

I admit I was wrong about Gronk's physical upside at this point in his career. But I still feel like I'm watching a porcelain sculpture whenever he gets hit, waiting for it to shatter. I half expected him not get up yesterday when he made that catch around the five yard line and got blown up. His back/disc injuries are really concerning.

It's fun to watch him, and I have no idea why people wouldn't love the guy. Not only is he quintessential person off the field, he is such an amazing locker room leader with his unselfishness in doing the dirty work and playing decoy. I imagine that mindset is important to the locker room right now when you have Evans getting a fraction of his production and Godwin getting less too.

 

[catent]

LOL! How spoiled we are that you can take a 3-year span where they went 36-12, won 3 division titles, made it to 2 Super Bowls and won 1 of them, and refer to that time period as "haven't been really good."

Well, because it's true. I probably should've said 2017'ish, because they were still pretty darn good that season.

But anyone who watched the games critically from 2018-2019 knew those teams weren't the same. They had a very good QB but some significant gaps in talent at other places.

They had a remarkable postseason run in 2018 but couldn't find the magic in 2019. They were a good team each season, but not really good since 2017.

 

[venecol]

Just heard a take that sounds pretty good, that what TB12 took from BB was being able to move on a year early than a year late.

IOW, Brady saw what the lack of talent in the team was going to become and decided to move on to a team where his talents (leadership, IQ) would be displayed. It wasn't BB that moved on from Brady but the other way around. Wicked smart of him to pick the Bucs too.

 

[Zarozzor]

Good summation. Pretty spot on. Bill royally screwed up starting in '17 and that pretty much ruined Brady finishing here. Why on earth Bill was so eager to push Brady out when he was playing the best football of his career, I will never ever understand. At 43, he is in the MVP convo. What a colossal screw up. It cannot be emphasized enough seeing what Brady is doing right now and where the Pats are.

I agree 100%. To me, 2014-2017 is peak Brady and the best version of him. But it seems like Bill was wanting him out by the 2017 season which just makes no sense to me. 2018 and 2019 his numbers were down but you can’t really put that on him when you see what he was working with those two seasons. He’s proven this year that he’s still got it since he actually has component receivers to throw to.

 

[Zarozzor]

Just heard a take that sounds pretty good, that what TB12 took from BB was being able to move on a year early than a year late.

IOW, Brady saw what the lack of talent in the team was going to become and decided to move on to a team where his talents (leadership, IQ) would be displayed. It wasn't BB that moved on from Brady but the other way around. Wicked smart of him to pick the Bucs too.

I was actually saying back in December 2019 to some people that I would really like to see him on the Bucs because they had an underrated defense and two stud receivers. They were just held back by their QB. I have no idea if they were even on the media’s radar on the time because all I remember hearing was about the Chargers.

 

[203Pat]

Well, because it's true. I probably should've said 2017'ish, because they were still pretty darn good that season.

But anyone who watched the games critically from 2018-2019 knew those teams weren't the same. They had a very good QB but some significant gaps in talent at other places.

They had a remarkable postseason run in 2018 but couldn't find the magic in 2019. They were a good team each season, but not really good since 2017.

Even more evidence that Brady wasn't washed just that his surrounding talent got worse. 2017 he was the MVP and he had an All-Pro Gronk, a 1000 yard receiver in Cooks, Amendola, Dion Lewis and James White, and Chris Hogan wasn't completely lost in the abyss yet.

 

[upstater1]

LOL! How spoiled we are that you can take a 3-year span where they went 36-12, won 3 division titles, made it to 2 Super Bowls and won 1 of them, and refer to that time period as "haven't been really good."

Don't worry, fans like him are going to drop off their interest soon.

 

[catent]

Even more evidence that Brady wasn't washed just that his surrounding talent got worse. 2017 he was the MVP and he had an All-Pro Gronk, a 1000 yard receiver in Cooks, Amendola, Dion Lewis and James White, and Chris Hogan wasn't completely lost in the abyss yet.

Agreed. I think it's less about who Belichick let go (I basically agree with most of the players he let go of offensively), but more of an issue around acquisition. They simply didn't fill those spots with talented players as they had in the past.

I think it's fair to say that perhaps too much of the focus was on the secondary. Look at someone like Jason McCourty and Joejuan, a FA acquisition and high-value draft pick, respectively. If that was instead a talented DT and WR, things may look a bit different right now. With Jason and Joejuan removed from the equation, you still have Gilmore, Jackson, Jones, DMac (and eventually Dugger). No shortage of DB talent even without those two.

I understand the emphasis on getting a deep, athletic secondary to match up with the likes of the Chiefs, but too many eggs have been in that basket. The DB basket hasn't been dropped, the eggs are still in-tact, the secondary is still really freaking good ... but they are so thin at other spots.

 

[upstater1]

Even more evidence that Brady wasn't washed just that his surrounding talent got worse. 2017 he was the MVP and he had an All-Pro Gronk, a 1000 yard receiver in Cooks, Amendola, Dion Lewis and James White, and Chris Hogan wasn't completely lost in the abyss yet.

But even in in 2018 we had enough offense to beat the Chargers, Chiefs and Rams in succession.

We were throwing to Edelman, Burkhead and White,and a hobbled Gronk caught 2 throws in the Super Bowl.

Last year, the main difference was Marshall Newhouse at LT, Ted Karras at C, Shaq Mason with a knee injury all year, a revolving door of players at RT. Brady had no time to throw. If he had more time, he might have found open receivers more.

This is why I think Cam can improve the rest of the year. He gets time to throw with Wynn, Thuney, Andrews, Mason and Onwenu in front of him.

 

[venecol]

Lmao, Kellerman finally admits he was wrong about Brady falling off a cliff. Hallelujah