OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Again, it's stuff like this that is ruining this forum. The binary, either/or perspectives. That's a bad article and it's that mindset that's made this place so insufferable recently.

Are the Patriots worse-off without Brady? Absolutely. Was Brady's presence the only reason they succeeded in the past, and is his absence the only reason they're struggling now? Absolutely not.

The Patriots haven't been really good since 2016'ish. You saw it in 2018 (they got lucky with a late-season push). You saw it in 2019. And you're seeing it now. They cannot reliably stop the run, their DL is light inside, the LBs are lacking athleticism, and there's a complete void of offensive talent. Brady is one (admittedly large) piece of the puzzle, but he's far from the whole story.

It doesn't mean Belichick sucks, nor does it mean Tom was the only reason for their success; it's a nuanced and complex situation managing a football team.

The Patriots are no different than any other team: give them a good QB and talent across the team, they'll succeed. Give them a poor roster with holes in places, they'll struggle.

There's still no coach I'd rather have than BB, and I can promise you that 31 other owners and fanbases feel similarly.

I don't want to crap on Belichick. He is beyond reproach in many ways and has contributed so much to my happiness as a fan. I have read almost every book about him and think he is brilliant.

What I would like to see is for people to acknowledge that teams are great because of players, and in football, the quarterback is like the queen on the chessboard.

We have seen plenty of coaches with dynasties or teams that dominated for several years - guys like Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Chuck Noll, Bill Walsh, Jimmy Johnson, and Bill Belichick. Yet we've never seen any of them build two dynasties or show that a coach or coach/GM can carry a team through major personnel change; we haven't seen a coach go to a different team and have a lick of the same success, besides maybe Bill Parcells (who had his own issues and never built a sustained dynasty) or Shula (who went from one stacked team to another before going all that time with Marino and still failing to deliver.)

So the reason why the Aha! articles that Brady is better than Belichick are rather dumb to me is because this is the wrong way to look at it. Brady isn't "better" than Belichick. Brady is a quarterback and Belichick is a coach. It's like saying that Justin Tucker is better than Patrick Mahomes since Tucker's lead over the second best kicker is greater. Mahomes is, of course, going to be a much more valuable asset than Tucker.

Bill's dual role as a coach/GM certainly makes him more valuable than most coaches - there's little doubt about that, but I'll repeat what I've said for years, which is that there are basically no metrics to measure how his moves have compared to other GMs, how his coaching has compared to other coaches, and people tend to vastly exaggerate the results through selective confirmation bias, and then they blow up that argument by acting like his impact is infinite and immeasurable, while players have an assigned value and are replaceable.

 

[NYCPATS4LIFE]

Lmao, Kellerman finally admits he was wrong about Brady falling off a cliff. Hallelujah

July 28, 2016 Tom brady is going to be a bum in short order. Dude needs to stick to boxing.

 

[lancerman]

 

[amfootball]

Again, it's stuff like this that is ruining this forum. The binary, either/or perspectives. That's a bad article and it's that mindset that's made this place so insufferable recently.

Are the Patriots worse-off without Brady? Absolutely. Was Brady's presence the only reason they succeeded in the past, and is his absence the only reason they're struggling now? Absolutely not.

I think it is inevitable precisely because Brady did not finish his career as a Patriot with the team not making him an even decent offer to retain him. Then he goes to Tampa and is lightning it up while the Pats are struggling. It is permeating every thread which is to be expected at least for this season. Hopefully the Pats reset next year and things become more interesting.

 

[203Pat]

But even in in 2018 we had enough offense to beat the Chargers, Chiefs and Rams in succession.

We were throwing to Edelman, Burkhead and White,and a hobbled Gronk caught 2 throws in the Super Bowl.

Last year, the main difference was Marshall Newhouse at LT, Ted Karras at C, Shaq Mason with a knee injury all year, a revolving door of players at RT. Brady had no time to throw. If he had more time, he might have found open receivers more.

This is why I think Cam can improve the rest of the year. He gets time to throw with Wynn, Thuney, Andrews, Mason and Onwenu in front of him.

I agree that down the stretch in the regular season they morphed into a run first team and it was pretty much out of necessity. Guys were dinged up and they had the offensive line to do it. Then when the playoffs rolled around they were pretty balanced and won, what I feel, was the most impressive playoff win of the Brady/BB era in Arrowhead against a great Chiefs team.

The thing that is scaring me about Cam is that even when he has time he just won't get rid of the ball. I know the receivers aren't always getting open but at least chuck it at their feet or close enough to them out of bounds. He seems to hesitate for a while and take a sack or scramble for a few yards. Even when he scrambled yesterday it didn't look decisive. He didn't make two reads and then take off. He made his reads and kind of anxiously hung in there then almost seemed to bail out on the decision to run. Cam just doesn't look comfortable right now and I feel like there is a fix but I just don't know what it is. He is still too good a player to be this bad.

Agreed. I think it's less about who Belichick let go (I basically agree with most of the players he let go of offensively), but more of an issue around acquisition. They simply didn't fill those spots with talented players as they had in the past.

I think it's fair to say that perhaps too much of the focus was on the secondary. Look at someone like Jason McCourty and Joejuan, a FA acquisition and high-value draft pick, respectively. If that was instead a talented DT and WR, things may look a bit different right now. With Jason and Joejuan removed from the equation, you still have Gilmore, Jackson, Jones, DMac (and eventually Dugger). No shortage of DB talent even without those two.

I understand the emphasis on getting a deep, athletic secondary to match up with the likes of the Chiefs, but too many eggs have been in that basket. The DB basket hasn't been dropped, the eggs are still in-tact, the secondary is still really freaking good ... but they are so thin at other spots.

Bill's 2019 offseason was a mess. He swung and missed in the free agent market for a TE a few times. He tried to sign Cook but from what I remember was late to the party and he already had a deal in place in New Orleans. Later on in camp he tried to sign a couple of JAGs who fizzled out in ASJ and Kendricks and settled on 2/3 of a season of 114 year old Ben Watson. To me that was just absolutely inexcusable to go into a season with that TE group last year (and so far it doesn't look any better this year) after it being such an important part of the offense for so long. Combine that with the fact that he basically had Brady signing a contract that terminated his Patriots career after the season, and a draft class that produced next to nothing outside of a punter and situational pass rusher the cupboard was bare.

I also completely agree with you about loading up the secondary seemingly at the expense of other positions that were completely bare. I don’t think it is a hindsight is 20/20 thing to say the Joejuan pick was a bad pick. Not only the player but the position considering the needs on offense especially after he signed Terrrence Brooks, ended up re-signing Jon Jones, and still had our prior year's second round bust DB in Dawson.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

It seems apparent that Brady is changing the Tampa Bay offense; maybe the team is just adapting. Clearly he is now looking for designed plays to free up the shorter passes that will lead to YAC and then looking deep as the cherry on top. Which is the way that any successful offense should run but especially when you have that many playmakers.

 

[Zarozzor]

Lmao, Kellerman finally admits he was wrong about Brady falling off a cliff. Hallelujah

Did he really?!

 

[captain stone]

...There's still no coach I'd rather have than BB, and I can promise you that 31 other owners and fanbases feel similarly.

Don't think that true any longer.

 

[Zarozzor]

Dome Games

Drew Brees: 138
Tom Brady: 16

Saw this stat earlier

@Ice_Ice_Brady

 

[catent]

Don't think that true any longer.

Based on 6 games? No way.

 

[randomk1]

Brady's arm looks the same as it has always been.

There was never a doubt that he was going to kill it. Just so ****ing great watching our dumpster fire on offense vs the goat shredding Ds.

Get Brady some decent weapons and the dynasty window would have still been open but we can't draft talent for ****.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Brady with what he had yesterday and Brown would hang 50 on that D.

im sure it would still come down to the wire though, especially if its in Seattle. Weird things happen up there

 

[venecol]

Did he really?!

MAX KELLERMAN ADMITS BEING WRONG ABOUT BRADY - Search Videos

www.bing.com

 

[JMC00]

If Bucs stay relatively healthy and Brown clicks right in, don't think they will lose another game in the regular season.

Their 3 toughest remaining games (NO, LAR & KC) are at home then they have a Week 13 bye and then
Vikings
Falcons
Lions
Falcons
to end the season

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Dome Games

Drew Brees: 138
Tom Brady: 16

Saw this stat earlier

@Ice_Ice_Brady

I see there are some Brees-iots in the comments sections all around, crying about how Brady has played a few more games and that this is some type of illegitimate record (even though Brees has a lot more passing attempts). Lmao.

Brady now has more TD passes than Brees and 57 less interceptions.

And now I see they are even trying to pump up Brees's "most game winning drives" stat as some kind of trump card. Well, here is the real stat to know on that...

Brees has 52 game winning drives, but he has also lost 113 games.
Brady has 46 games winning drives, but he has only lost 66 games.

That doesn't even count the postseason, which would put Brady ahead. So counting the postseason, he has more game winning drives, despite that Brees has had almost 2X as many opportunities.

 

[lancerman]

Dome Games

Drew Brees: 138
Tom Brady: 16

Saw this stat earlier

@Ice_Ice_Brady

I know where you saw it too

 

[TheRainMaker]

Don't think that true any longer.

BB is treading in dangerous territory of what happens when you lose the GOAT and other key veterans towing the "Patriot Way". You turn into Greg Popovich who was mediocre before scoring Tim Duncan. Then he scored Parker and Ginobli and was considered one of the best coaches of all time. Now he's been an afterthought since losing Kawhi Leonard.

When you lose the greatest leader at QB, veterans start to depart and the team isn't winning, BB will start getting tuned out by the new generation of players.

 

[Zarozzor]

I see there are some Brees-iots in the comments sections all around, crying about how Brady has played a few more games and that this is some type of illegitimate record (even though Brees has a lot more passing attempts). Lmao.

Brady now has more TD passes than Brees and 57 less interceptions.

And now I see they are even trying to pump up Brees's "most game winning drives" stat as some kind of trump card. Well, here is the real stat to know on that...

Brees has 52 game winning drives, but he has also lost 113 games.
Brady has 46 games winning drives, but he has only lost 66 games.

That doesn't even count the postseason, which would put Brady ahead. So counting the postseason, he has more game winning drives, despite that Brees has had almost 2X as many opportunities.

I saw a couple of Saints fans saying “well he will never break the completion percentage record and that one is more impressive anyway.”

I didn’t realize throwing 20+ checkdowns behind the LOS, screens, and slants every game was “impressive”

 

[Tottie]

I saw a couple of Saints fans saying “well he will never break the completion percentage record and that one is more impressive anyway.”

I didn’t realize throwing 20+ checkdowns behind the LOS, screens, and slants every game was “impressive”

They'll stop his last game to give him a trophy for best completion % in NFL history. He'll retire a hero...

Or...maybe someone should tell him the only number that matters is 6. NE plays tough inclement weather games and runs out the clock in 4th quarter with the lead. These fake records like 'comebacks' are made for TV.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I saw a couple of Saints fans saying “well he will never break the completion percentage record and that one is more impressive anyway.”

I didn’t realize throwing 20+ checkdowns behind the LOS, screens, and slants every game was “impressive”

Somehow defenses don't realize that 90% of the time, the ball is either going to Kamara on a dump off, or if they're throwing "downfield" it will be the shallowest crossing route.