[Old 2020 thread] NFL Free Agency/Trade Rumors:

[Uptown]

 

[Love The Drake]

Seeing that number makes the Texans trade look that much worse if they are on the hook for the whole thing that is.
I’d have to see how it hits their cap to have a valid opinion.

 

[luuked]

But I think BB scheme to get sack is more a product of the lack of talent at DE than a real approach. We were crying on this forum about the lack of pressure the last 5 years and nobody was saying scheme sacks were great and BB was genius and everybody else were morons. I think we also had more sacks last year because the secondary was better.

I don't know where you have been the last couple years but there have been numerous discussions about sacks vs. overall pressures, the value of elite players on market level deals and all kinds of talk about defense.

I mean exactly the same argument can be had for the offense (a unit that consistently has been top 5 until last year) where the majority of success comes from scheme and execution and not physical talent of the QB or his receiving options.

You make it sound like "schemeing" is something unpure and cheap -- similar to how people dismiss trick plays -- when in reality it has been the basis for a lot of our sustained success on offense and defense.

I agree that Bill doesn’t want to pay 15 million a year for a guy like that but his constantly searching for the next chandler jones. It didn’t find it the draft so far but he tried via free agency with signing like Harrison and Bennet.

Value is the entire point of this conversation. If you can just schematically create pressure why would you instead invest 15-18m into a single player who might be taken out by double teams or gets injured.

Almost the entire shtick of BB's roster building has been finding and exploiting market inefficiencies. Teams throwing away 15-20% of their cap space into a player you can scheme away is one of those. We are not talking Lawrence Taylor level players running around and wrecking havoc.

Ultimately you have to see every move and transaction in the NFL with the salary cap in mind. And this is where the value proposition falls apart for pass rushers once they hit market value.

 

[Uptown]

 

[Uptown]

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

I don't know where you have been the last couple years but there have been numerous discussions about sacks vs. overall pressures, the value of elite players on market level deals and all kinds of talk about defense.

I mean exactly the same argument can be had for the offense (a unit that consistently has been top 5 until last year) where the majority of success comes from scheme and execution and not physical talent of the QB or his receiving options.

You make it sound like "schemeing" is something unpure and cheap -- similar to how people dismiss trick plays -- when in reality it has been the basis for all our sustained success on offense
and defense.



Value is the entire point of this conversation. If you can just schematically create pressure why would you instead invest 15-18m into a single player who might be taken out by double teams or gets injured.

Almost the entire shtick of BB's roster building has been finding and exploiting market inefficiencies. Teams throwing away 15-20% of their cap space into a player you can scheme away is one of those. We are not talking Lawrence Taylor level players running around and wrecking havoc.

Ultimately you have to see every move and transaction in the NFL with the salary cap in mind. And this is where the value proposition falls apart for pass rushers once they hit market value.

also some qb's and o-Line are having trouble to identify where the pressure is coming from..and pre snap reads of the defense are little harder..

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

sounds like a good deal for philly..they need to keep their qb protected

 

[captain stone]

I wouldn’t be against Clooney. This team lack a real pass rusher since Chandler Jones...

Clowney isn't as good as a pure pass rusher as we might be lead to believe...And he doesn't appear to be that good at drawing double-teams so others can get sacks either...I wish I could remember in which thread I read a link where this conclusion was drawn, sorry...He is a good/very good base DE because of his edge-setting & run-stopping, but that's not worth $15-18M either...

I always thought that he was mis-cast in Houston's 3-4 defense as a stand-up OLB/DE anyway, and while I would welcome him here as an upgrade to Wise et al opposite Wino (and is Wino even a 3-down DE right now?), Clowney isn't worth half of what he's been asking for, not here at least.

EDIT: Here's the link to which I was referring, from the We now have cap space thread, courtesy of Triumph:

For Seahawks, lack of pass rush, Clowney are biggest disappointments of 2019

 

[DropKickFlutie]

The obsession over sacks instead of QB pressures is like obsessing over home runs instead of on base percentage

.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

I mean exactly the same argument can be had for the offense (a unit that consistently has been top 5 until last year) where the majority of success comes from scheme and execution and not physical talent of the QB or his receiving options

I can argue that we almost never had physical talent on offense that why we were scheming things. When Brady has physical talent (Moss and Gronk) we were not scheming much. There is a difference between a system ( option route mostly) and scheming guys open with pick play, etc because they can’t get open on their own.

For the pass rush, it’s exactly that. we are scheming sacks because otherwise nobody would consistently get to the QB on their own. We scheming because of talent not because of the system on defense. I completely agree with you that value is important. If Bill could get Von Miller for 10 million, he’ll go for it in a heartbeat. I don’t think he pass on an occasion like that in the name of « I prefer to scheme sacks with a 3 million player »

We disagree on the fact that you think Bill scheming sacks is part of the system on defense and I think that it’s not his system but a consequence of the lack of talent at that position. But that’s fine

 

[luuked]

We disagree on the fact that you think Bill scheming sacks is part of the system on defense and I think that it’s not his system but a consequence of the lack of talent at that position. But that’s fine

You are misunderstanding my point.

I am saying if you can scheme your team to success on offense (e.g. the play action play with the pulling lineman Brady learned from Manning which put Gronk into the HoF) and defense then you will have an economical advantage over a lot of those teams that bind up 15% of their cap space in a single pass rusher or their big name #1 WR.

If you then somehow still end up with a really talented player on a rookie deal, he will act as an multiplier on top of that giving you an even bigger advantage.

This is all about value and economics and not at all about talent. I am not saying we are doing this since its part of a system or due to it being a smarter way but because it gives the team a huge edge in a team sport.

 

[luuked]

So much for that then.

 

[Love The Drake]

So much for that then.

Lombardi is drunk

 

[203Pat]

So much for that then.

God he is so annoying.

 

[Love The Drake]

God he is so annoying.

He would of said the same about Cam

 

[skinnydog]

I can argue that we almost never had physical talent on offense that why we were scheming things. When Brady has physical talent (Moss and Gronk) we were not scheming much. There is a difference between a system ( option route mostly) and scheming guys open with pick play, etc because they can’t get open on their own.

For the pass rush, it’s exactly that. we are scheming sacks because otherwise nobody would consistently get to the QB on their own. We scheming because of talent not because of the system on defense. I completely agree with you that value is important. If Bill could get Von Miller for 10 million, he’ll go for it in a heartbeat. I don’t think he pass on an occasion like that in the name of « I prefer to scheme sacks with a 3 million player »

We disagree on the fact that you think Bill scheming sacks is part of the system on defense and I think that it’s not his system but a consequence of the lack of talent at that position. But that’s fine

We schemed a lot to get Gronk one on one. The idea of moving Gronk to the outside and getting a LB go go out to cover him one on one on the outside was a scheme to get a favorable matchup.

 

[captain stone]

We schemed a lot to get Gronk one on one. The idea of moving Gronk to the outside and getting a LB go go out to cover him one on one on the outside was a scheme to get a favorable matchup.

But if somebody can beat 1-on-1 coverage, then how much of that is really scheme?

 

[luuked]

He would of said the same about Cam

He was actually one of the few who kept saying from March through June that Cam to the Pats would make sense.

 

[luuked]

But if somebody can beat 1-on-1 coverage, then how much of that is really scheme?

You still have to get him into that favorable matchup. The other team is not giving you those for free, especially not with marquee players like Gronk. That's all scheme.

 

[mgteich]

But if somebody can beat 1-on-1 coverage, then how much of that is really scheme?

???

Without very clever schemes, Gronk was almost always double covered. It took considerable scheming to get him into 1 0n 1 situations.