Pats @ Ravens all-22 rewatch thread

[Kontradiction]

Yes. I'm assuming that the DL shifts to match, but why change the Sam?

The Sam moves up to take on the run and to not give a free blocker access to the next level. In other words - support. Otherwise, the OL has the advantage on the strong side and you’ll get gashed.

As far as the best way to defeat gap blocking/option, it’s also the best way to choke off any ground game - a toilet clogger of a DT that can regularly consume two blockers at the LOS and 5-techs that can hold the edge. Not a whole lot of room for a mobile QB to run if those gaps are closed. They can bounce it to the outside, but if the DL is doing their jobs, a free blocker won’t be able to get to the next level. This lets your LBs flow to contain the run and unless they take a piss poor angle, it usually results in minimal yards gained. Shelton has performed better than expected, but he isn’t what this defense needs to cure the issues against the run. That was on full display in this game. I don’t think I’m treading into hawt taek territory by pointing out that he was frequently giving up leverage and was getting handled one-on-one.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Mentioned this yest when talking abt tite, might've helped keep it easier for the read defender but we dont think we have the personnel to run it enough/effectively.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Double caught my eye. Hip 2 hop, shoulder 2 shoulder, feet stepping together. Whole OL did work here though. Just completely erased us & reset

 

[203Pat]

I don’t know if this has been brought up outside the GDT but did anyone hear Collinsworth say that every team should have 2-3 designed runs for the quarterback and mentioned Brady? I’ve heard commentators say some dumb things but that was an all timer.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I don’t know if this has been brought up outside the GDT but did anyone hear Collinsworth say that every team should have 2-3 designed runs for the quarterback and mentioned Brady? I’ve heard commentators say some dumb things but that was an all timer.

Idk I honestly dont think its the worst idea?

Speculating here but I'm guessing hes talking very different then Lamar weaving through traffic & shaking defenders. Probably more along the lines of eating up unaccounted yards the defense gives up.

Stretching the field w verts, outs & creating a lane or space. Brady wouldn't even have to be very successful in terms of gaining yards, its more renting space in their heads.

Again maybe on certain plays you see green grass on film. And its a very clear, slide asap at the first feel of eyes on you.

Every game you see what the defense cant account for or will purposely give up & I'm guessing Cris, like a lot of others see that & want to do something w it.

Even the most conservative ideas there are risky though & not for nothing but imagine Tom's response?
I'm throwing to ****in rookies, udfa & 11 & you want me to ****in tote the rock too?

 

[203Pat]

Idk I honestly dont think its the worst idea?

Speculating here but I'm guessing hes talking very different then Lamar weaving through traffic & shaking defenders. Probably more along the lines of eating up unaccounted yards the defense gives up.

Stretching the field w verts, outs & creating a lane or space. Brady wouldn't even have to be very successful in terms of gaining yards, its more renting space in their heads.

Again maybe on certain plays you see green grass on film. And its a very clear, slide asap at the first feel of eyes on you.

Every game you see what the defense cant account for or will purposely give up & I'm guessing Cris, like a lot of others see that & want to do something w it.

Even the most conservative ideas there are risky though & not for nothing but imagine Tom's response?
I'm throwing to ****in rookies, udfa & 11 & you want me to ****in tote the rock too?

I feel like Brady picks and chooses his spots to run pretty well. Designed runs for him would be an unfathomable disaster.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I feel like Brady picks and chooses his spots to run pretty well. Designed runs for him would be an unfathomable disaster.

W respect I think you're putting too much emphasis on "designed". As if he has run. We could pick & choose the best concepts that clear out space & basically gove him the option if it's easy yards.

Different then "designed" runs but still accomplishing the same purpose. Taking a defender out of coverage if possible.

Again you're not doing this & Brady would laugh at you if you asked. I'm thinking its CC trying to maximize things he sees on film.

That's why mobile guys are so important. You dont have to be a "runner" but every game a defense has grass it can't cover. Having someone to make them pay makes sense in theory buy the risk on 12 is huge.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Wide Zone. Or at least I'm calling it Wide/Stretch Zone. T stretching calls it for me. Anyway this gives you an idea of what you have to face. Shelton gets reached but how many times have we seen this before in any zone play. Just get him going east/west. Just a tough block for Shelton to get off of. Vg effort by Guy though. Shelton too, just got beat. Has to be more aggressive as well.
Another thing I see a little different is HT. Ingram sets him up & just gets him.
Physical, athletic & committed.


Talking abt this ^^^ play to be clear

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I was certain its been this long since we ran any tempo & this confirms it.

Again Balt played great, we played our C. Much of that was Balt but we definitely can take away positives. This film will be shown forever. Sux that we ended up on the wrong side at times but thats football & nothing to be embarrassed abt.

 

[Wheelssps]

Two questions

Can anyone explain how much zone the pats played on the back end? Seemed like very little. Seemed like a possible way for the front 7 to be a bit more aggressive and not get outflanked as easily if a cb is waiting in zone in the flat. Not sure that Jackson is a qb that will kill a zone consistently.

Also it didn’t seem like the pats made Jackson pay for running the option. I think that van noy got fooled on that a couple of times in particular. I always thought the mantra was fir the unblocked end to simply kill the qb before, during, or hopefully soon enough after the pitch to get away with it without a penalty. Even if a big play happens, it gets the other team out of the option instead of getting their qb killed. That’s how I was taught to play it in high school as the end. Pats seemed flat footed and hesitant though. Is there a reason the pats seemed unable do this?

 

[Shockt327]

Interesting break down on the Brady - Edelman long pass.

Check page 65 of the 2003 Patriots playbook, they call Edelman's route a "move post. "

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

If anyone wants the link(s)

New England Patriots Offense (2003) - Charlie Weis


New England Patriots Offense (2004) - Charlie Weis


New England Patriots Offense (1974) - Chuck Fairbanks


New York Giants West Coast Offense (2000) - Sean Payton


Oakland Raiders Mini Camp West Coast Offense (1998) - Jon Gruden

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Two questions

Can anyone explain how much zone the pats played on the back end? Seemed like very little. Seemed like a possible way for the front 7 to be a bit more aggressive and not get outflanked as easily if a cb is waiting in zone in the flat. Not sure that Jackson is a qb that will kill a zone consistently.

Also it didn’t seem like the pats made Jackson pay for running the option. I think that van noy got fooled on that a couple of times in particular. I always thought the mantra was fir the unblocked end to simply kill the qb before, during, or hopefully soon enough after the pitch to get away with it without a penalty. Even if a big play happens, it gets the other team out of the option instead of getting their qb killed. That’s how I was taught to play it in high school as the end. Pats seemed flat footed and hesitant though. Is there a reason the pats seemed unable do this?

Feel like we played a lot on man on 3rd specifically.

Idk how you were taught but if you just went after Jackson only, it probably wouldn't work out to well for you.

 

[patfanken]

Feel like we played a lot on man on 3rd specifically.

Idk how you were taught but if you just went after Jackson only, it probably wouldn't work out to well for you.

After watching this option attack, it gave me a better appreciation of how skillfully this offense was crafted for the NFL game.

I've always thought the easiest way to kill this concept was to cut off the head (QB) and make it too dangerous to run. Back in the day, the QB/RB mesh was made along the LOS, whether it was a veer/wishbone or wingT option. In those formations the QB WAS a legitimate target, and an easy one at that.

The option I saw on Sunday made is MUCH more difficult to attack the QB because he's initiating the mesh 5-7 yds BEHIND the LOS. That makes it hard to directly hit the QB. If a way could be established that would get someone in the backfield close to the mesh point I wouldn't give a **** if the RB got the ball, I'd just keep hitting the QB until he dropped.

I will be interested to see, if there is a rematch, if Bill and company come up with a way to get some quick up field pressure by a DB or LB to create that kind of pressure. I'm sure there are other creative defensive minds on the the other 8 opponents the Raven will play who will present different challenges to this offense that can be used down the road. I won't be missing any Ravens games that get broadcast locally.

New concepts like the Ravens showed are often very effective.....for a while. The question will be how quickly the code can be deciphered. It took almost a full season before McVay's scheme was successfully decoded. The Bear's 4-6 D of the mid 80's got 2 seasons of dominance before it was decrypted and lost it's edge (as did the Bears).

Interesting enough both the Bears and Ravens concepts were very player specific. When Buddy Ryan sought to transfer his 4-6 D to Eagles when he got the HCing job, it didn't work out nearly as well because he didn't have the same talent he had with the Bears, and Ryan was soon gone. This Raven offense was built around Jackson's unique talents. And the Ravens FO should get kudos for taking this leap of faith and going all in, including having a back up who can do similar things if Jackson did get hurt.

I find it all very fascinating. I makes me really want to play the Ravens again. I have a white board I use to remind me of appointments and stuff. It might get a different use, while I mull this over trying to think of ways to get to the QB faster.

 

[PP2]

 

[Kontradiction]

Two questions

Can anyone explain how much zone the pats played on the back end? Seemed like very little. Seemed like a possible way for the front 7 to be a bit more aggressive and not get outflanked as easily if a cb is waiting in zone in the flat. Not sure that Jackson is a qb that will kill a zone consistently.

Also it didn’t seem like the pats made Jackson pay for running the option. I think that van noy got fooled on that a couple of times in particular. I always thought the mantra was fir the unblocked end to simply kill the qb before, during, or hopefully soon enough after the pitch to get away with it without a penalty. Even if a big play happens, it gets the other team out of the option instead of getting their qb killed. That’s how I was taught to play it in high school as the end. Pats seemed flat footed and hesitant though. Is there a reason the pats seemed unable do this?

Jackson won’t kill zone consistently. Or at least he won’t yet. Part of the problem with zone, though, is you’re giving the QB lanes to throw the football. Easy reads. You sacrifice that to keep all eyes in the backfield. The Ravens have a lot of speed so to give them the ball in space, which is what you’re doing in most zone defenses, is dangerous. That will also tend to speed up the game when it was obvious that the Patriots, even from the opening whistle, were trying to slow it down.

That said, that’s not where we lost this game. We simply got our asses whipped up front. Trade deadline has come and gone, so who we have up front is who we are rolling with. The results there won’t suddenly flip in our favor if the two teams play again. The Ravens just simply match up well on offense with who we are on defense these days. It happens. The Pats will have to try to scheme it to slow them down in a hypothetical rematch. I would expect them to go back to what has worked against mobile QBs in the past and that’s a lot of nickel and dime/Cover-3/4 etc. In the end, though, because the Ravens match up so well with the Pats, we would simply need to out score them. Hopefully Harry comes in like game busters. We will need him.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

After watching this option attack, it gave me a better appreciation of how skillfully this offense was crafted for the NFL game.

I've always thought the easiest way to kill this concept was to cut off the head (QB) and make it too dangerous to run. Back in the day, the QB/RB mesh was made along the LOS, whether it was a veer/wishbone or wingT option. In those formations the QB WAS a legitimate target, and an easy one at that.

The option I saw on Sunday made is MUCH more difficult to attack the QB because he's initiating the mesh 5-7 yds BEHIND the LOS. That makes it hard to directly hit the QB. If a way could be established that would get someone in the backfield close to the mesh point I wouldn't give a **** if the RB got the ball, I'd just keep hitting the QB until he dropped.

I will be interested to see, if there is a rematch, if Bill and company come up with a way to get some quick up field pressure by a DB or LB to create that kind of pressure. I'm sure there are other creative defensive minds on the the other 8 opponents the Raven will play who will present different challenges to this offense that can be used down the road. I won't be missing any Ravens games that get broadcast locally.

New concepts like the Ravens showed are often very effective.....for a while. The question will be how quickly the code can be deciphered. It took almost a full season before McVay's scheme was successfully decoded. The Bear's 4-6 D of the mid 80's got 2 seasons of dominance before it was decrypted and lost it's edge (as did the Bears).

Interesting enough both the Bears and Ravens concepts were very player specific. When Buddy Ryan sought to transfer his 4-6 D to Eagles when he got the HCing job, it didn't work out nearly as well because he didn't have the same talent he had with the Bears, and Ryan was soon gone. This Raven offense was built around Jackson's unique talents. And the Ravens FO should get kudos for taking this leap of faith and going all in, including having a back up who can do similar things if Jackson did get hurt.

I find it all very fascinating. I makes me really want to play the Ravens again. I have a white board I use to remind me of appointments and stuff. It might get a different use, while I mull this over trying to think of ways to get to the QB faster.

Their RO was very clean & crisp. Everything was rolling for them. Very much like peak Kap-49ers when Roman was there. 2012, I believe. Watched a lil last night & it was almost like watching the same players. Just an incredibly well put together team.

Roman is the perfect guy to build a ground game & when given the personnel he's had, it makes it very difficult to stop. Esp in the gun. It doesn't take a lot to completely screw w a defense.
Switch to play nickel? In that case its the LB over the B gap, thats really all you have to worry abt. That's Jackson read. He bites you have the shallow to complete an easy pass underneath. Stays or hesitates & its over through the ground.

Extremely tough to deal w snap by snap basis.

I posted a clip above that MG put out to show just how hard their game is to defend.

You a really good, versatile OL. Vg RBs & a dynamic QB. And we caught their A game.

 

[captain stone]

After watching & re-watching the game on the dvr, two conclusions I can draw with metaphysical certitude are: We need another fat-body at DT...and Elandon Waivers, JaWrong Bentley & Terri Brooks all feckin Suck.

 

[catent]

After watching & re-watching the game on the dvr, two conclusions I can draw with metaphysical certitude are: We need another fat-body at DT...and Elandon Waivers, JaWrong Bentley & Terri Brooks all feckin Suck.

No hate for Shelton despite the fact that he was arguably the biggest liability in that game? If we got a strong performance from Shelton, that would have nullified about 80% of what Baltimore did.

Can't blame the LBs when the DL (Shelton specifically) failed in their designated role of 2-gapping and controlling the OL, which meant the LBs had OL on top of them and were playing on their heels instead of flowing and attacking.

Brooks got beat once by a good throw and catch. You won't find me ragging on him.

 

[luuked]

No hate for Shelton despite the fact that he was arguably the biggest liability in that game? If we got a strong performance from Shelton, that would have nullified about 80% of what Baltimore did.

Can't blame the LBs when the DL (Shelton specifically) failed in their designated role of 2-gapping and controlling the OL, which meant the LBs had OL on top of them and were playing on their heels instead of flowing and attacking.

Brooks got beat once by a good throw and catch. You won't find me ragging on him.

Has Shelton ever shown anything to thing he'd be able to hold up 2 gapping against a physical front or any average front for that matter ?

Point being the blame should not go to Shelton but to BB and the coaching staff for a bad gameplan that put Shelton into an impossible situation.

That being said you build your team to get into the playoffs and the way the Pats D is built they will handle 80% of opponents relatively well. On some level given constraints like the salary cap and roster size limits it is like a mathematical optimisation problem.. you are trying to have the personnel to be able to deal with as many teams as possible on your schedule.

So it is kinda hard to say that this was based on a roster building mistake especially when they have dominated more typical offenses with absolute ease.

As most here I am really looking forward to a potential second matchup mostly because I am just so curious how BB uses the additional information he has to stay a few steps ahead. All I can say for sure I'd be shocked if they put Shelton into the same position if there is a next time.