Duke traded to Broncos

[BradyFTW!]

It's two separate discussions that some people are trying to conflate. The Patriots aren't drafting brilliantly/terribly/ok because they traded for Gilmore and Jason McCourty. They are drafting brilliantly/terribly/ok because because they are drafting brilliantly/terribly/ok.

6 of the top 8 guys on the secondary depth chart are home grown, and there's a bunch of young ex-Patriots secondary guys contributing in significant roles all over the league (Butler, Ryan, Jones, Wilson, Roberts, LeBlanc, technically Richards I guess, etc). I certainly don't think the Pats have been flawless in their talent evaluation and development for secondary guys, and there are individual picks that you can isolate and say they clearly didn't work out. But taken in total the only conclusion I can reach is that the Pats are doing pretty well in finding talented guys, drafting/signing them at good overall value, and coaching them up.

 

[Ring 6]

Whenever I start to feel upset about the Dawson pick, I just pretend that JC Jackson was our second round pick last year and Dawson was the UDFA. Problem solved.

What you should feel is that things are pretty good if he can’t make the team and we have too many good players to keep him around to develop.
Crappy teams picks always make the team and play a lot.

 

[Wheelman]

So every single bust should be let off the hook because they got injured? He had a hamstring injury. He was available for the second half of the year and did nothing. He did less than nothing he didn't even suit up. He took up space on the sideline. I love the knots you can tie yourself into to make sure someone isn't labeled a bust or a wasted pick.

Remember special teams matter. I speculated last season the reason Crossen was on the active 46 over Dawson was because of this. Watching preseason it turned out to be correct. Crossen is a beast on ST's.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Thanks, and I wasn't alone...and to answer your question, I would've Not traded up at all; I simply would've drafted the best player available at 63, Safety & Heir Apparent Justin Reid...then 3/5-Tech (and local dude & legacy) Maurice Hurst at 117...as some of us stated that very weekend.

I remember you wanting them to take Reid as well. I forgot to add him as the only player in round 2-3 that has done well so far.

 

[Ring 6]

No, it doesn't.



There are any number of reasons why a team might make a bad pick. Poor research is one of them.

And many of them are impossible to predict.
Outside of a select few you drag a guy who isn’t ready to succeed in the nfl yet. There are myriad factors that happen after the draft that have more to do with success than where you were at draft time. These include
Injuries
Technique development
Fit for scheme
Growing up and being a responsible adult
Work ethic
Commitment
Intelligence
Taking care of yourself (diet, nutrition, partying, lifestyle)
How you adapt to having your first job and living in your own with responsibilities.
Improvement in strength, speed quickness
Coach-ability
Quality of coaching
And the list goes on

 

[Deus Irae]

6 of the top 8 guys on the secondary depth chart are home grown, and there's a bunch of young ex-Patriots secondary guys contributing in significant roles all over the league (Butler, Ryan, Jones, Wilson, Roberts, LeBlanc, technically Richards I guess, etc). I certainly don't think the Pats have been flawless in their talent evaluation and development for secondary guys, and there are individual picks that you can isolate and say they clearly didn't work out. But taken in total the only conclusion I can reach is that the Pats are doing pretty well in finding talented guys, drafting/signing them at good overall value, and coaching them up.

I haven't argued the specifics of the argument today, other than to call the Dawson pick the worst in the BB era, which is something that I don't see any way to refute. It's a silly argument to deny that BB has struggled in some areas, just as it's a silly argument to deny that the Patriots have had some excellent personnel runs. I've said before that BB is a good overall drafter, and the data is out there. The Patriots hit about as often as any team, but they find more picks through trades and FA compensation.

But when posters start pretending things like Dawson wasn't a bust, or that BB hasn't struggled in a couple of areas of the draft, it gets annoying, and there's going to be blowback. There's no need for such mindless defense of the indefensible, and it insults the intelligence of everyone, particularly given that we know BB would agree with the reality of the numbers and data. "It is what it is", after all.

And, the elephant in the room, the one that the homers ignore pretty much every time this issue comes up, and the one that cheeses me off a bit, is that Brady and BB are good enough at their jobs (QB/Coach) to cover for the drafting, trading, and FA blunders, and often make the rest of the roster (including draft picks) look better than it really is.

 

[Wheelman]

As Ken so astutely pointed out, normally Dawson would have been given more time to produce (certainly beyond his rookie year when he was mostly injured) but it wasn't feasible because the Patriots hit on three UDFAs that developed into quality players, Jackson, J. Jones and Crossen, and when combined with the other strong CB vets it simply wasn't possible to give Dawson a more reasonable time to develop.

IMHO Cyrus Jones was a somewhat similar story. The first year he was thrown to the wolves as a returner and surprisingly (given his return ability in college) seemed to develop the yips and had a lousy rookie year as a returner. The next year (2017) he was injured all year and at the beginning of 2018, coming off of injury, he simply couldn't beat out a group of CBs that included Gilmore, Jason McCourty, J.C. Jackson, J. Jones and Crossen. That is a similar story to Dawson except Dawson had 2nd round pick Williams to compete with also.

However, it isn't like Cyrus Jones is now working at the neighborhood Walmart, he has landed on the Ravens and is expected to be their starting nickel CB, "even though the Ravens' depth chart at cornerback might be one of the deepest position groups on an NFL team."
https://www.al.com/sports/2019/08/cyrus-jones-feeling-really-really-good-with-ravens.html

So: Cyrus Jones appears to be doing fine with the Ravens, he simply got beat out by a bunch of great UDFA CB prospects on the Pats. We will have to see if something similar happens to Dawson on the Broncos.

For what it's worth some ratbirds fans were bemoaning his play in the preseason. He's at least catching punts this time around. I do remember BB or Caserio saying one of the reasons he was drafted in the 2nd was for his punt return ability.

 

[LJRomanoff]

In that situation, you are correct...

...but the Dawson situation - and the situations of ALL of the other predictable bust picks - are different from it.

Dawson's leg injury was predicted at draft time?

 

[Wheelman]

Sadly, all that winning has made fans think the team should be immune to criticism.

No I don't think that is it. It's the kneejerk reactions. We haven't seen what Duke Dawson can do. We saw what Jordan Richards could do. Let's give it a season or two to see what he can become. There ended being no space on here with the emergence of JC Jackson and then drafting JoeJuan Williams this season.

 

[Wheelman]

We wouldn't have drafted and re-signed a corner this year had Duke Dawson show the ability one could reasonably expect from a second rounder.

Uh, do you not remember BB saying at some point during the off season something along the lines of "Who's going to cover all these tall receivers in the league". Oh I think BB would have drafted JoeJuan Williams anyways just for his size.

 

[203Pat]

And yet he is now a starter for a team that many pick for the playoffs (Yawn)

And what are YOUR credentials to categorize him as a "role player". I can remember a year or two ago when I commented in a thread about Mr February, how Hightower had 25 tackle FEWER than Tavon Wilson. (In fairness, this was a year before he became "Mr February" )

Take your outrage elsewhere, son, or do a better job backing up your remarks

He is a good pick for us because he might start for another team? The reason he is potentially a starter is because Tavon Young, their nickelback (who signed a 3 year $25 million deal in the offseason) injured his neck and will likely miss the season. Here is what John Harbaugh had to say about him a week ago:

“He can tell you those things that he’s working on, but he played hard,” Harbaugh said of Jones. “He played smart, generally, and he did a good job. We have a lot of guys. It will be a little bit [of a] different plan if Tavon is not there, in terms of playing more guys in the slot than we would have. We’ll see how that plays out.”

Baltimore native Cyrus Jones finally feels his feet under him in second season with Ravens

Doesn't sound like he has won the starting job for a team that many pick to make the playoffs yet. Okay then get him fitted for a red jacket now.

As for Tavon Wilson, my credentials are a working pair of eyes and a functioning brain. He's started 26 of the 40 games (diminishing starts/games each year) he played with the Lions and he has signed two modest contracts with the Lions (two-year, $2.20 million in 2016 and two-year, $7 million last season). So if having 87 tackles one year makes him a superstar well then congrats the Lions got themselves Ronnie Lott.

Take your "I've been watching this team for 40 years!!" outrage elsewhere son and do a better job of formulating an actual point other than "I said a couple years ago one guy had more tackles than another guy!"

 

[patchick]

For the first time, ever, I think everyone here was universal in their praise of this years draft picks.

Oh, it wasn't universal. Happiness with a Patriots draft will NEVER be universal here at Patsfans.com.

 

[203Pat]

Remember special teams matter. I speculated last season the reason Crossen was on the active 46 over Dawson was because of this. Watching preseason it turned out to be correct. Crossen is a beast on ST's.

And what does any of that have to do with my post you quoted?

 

[slam]

Honestly wouldn’t care if they set every 2nd round draft card on fire on the draft stage from now on if the apparent level of talent on the team in general and the secondary in particular remains as it is. If 2nd round DB “busts” are the tithe Bill has to pay to maintain his deal with the Devil, so be it.

 

[Ring 6]

Once again, stay with me here, I am not faulting Bill for drafting a bust. I am faulting the people who foolishly try and claim that a bust is not a bust.

But who cares?

 

[203Pat]

Uh, do you not remember BB saying at some point during the off season something along the lines of "Who's going to cover all these tall receivers in the league". Oh I think BB would have drafted JoeJuan Williams anyways just for his size.

Even if that is the case why re-sign McCourty if you have the budding superstar that is Duke Dawson waiting in the wings? I was responding to a post that claimed that DD was traded because we are so deep at DB not because DD sucked. The reason we ended up so much deeper this year is because Dawson sucked and Bill did more to shore up the position (ie. re-signing McCourty and drafting a corner).

 

[203Pat]

But who cares?

It is a New England Patriots message board Andy. People post their thoughts and opinions about the New England Patriots here. If no one cared about any of this the site wouldn't exist. You are closing in on 50k posts here. You must be one of the ones who cares as well.

 

[Ring 6]

I think a big reason why he is a good drafter is his system of drafting and developing players that are system fits and putting them in a position of success is tried, true and tested as opposed to picking the most talented player and rolling the dice.

I think he is a good drafter because he understands how to build a team and that the draft is one piece of it. Further it’s a piece drought with failure. Fans expect and I think some teams think there is a magical way to draft the right guy and if you are just smart enough every pick will be a good one. That couldn’t be further from true.

Why is Belichick the best drafter? Because he builds the best teams consistently and that is the sole goal of drafting.

 

[203Pat]

Only on this forum could it be argued that Cyrus Jones and Duke Dawson weren't bad picks for the New England Patriots.

 

[Ring 6]

It is a New England Patriots message board Andy. People post their thoughts and opinions about the New England Patriots here. If no one cared about any of this the site wouldn't exist. You are closing in on 50k posts here. You must be one of the ones who cares as well.

I care about the team and it’s success. I couldnt care less about Monday morning quarterbacking to label something.
What difference does it make.