Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?

[Ring 6]

Florida's Sunshine Laws are an aberration, as are their increasingly aggressive surveillance tactics. Other states have been just fine without a bunch of extreme idiocy.

It's enough for them to post a video of Kraft about to remove his clothes and then a full body blur to make their point. No part of his naked body needs to be shown. Let's say a college girl at University of Florida gets drunk, runs down the street naked, and is picked up on security cameras with a fully frontal video. If she is also guilty of a misdemeanor, or accused of one,which parts of her body should be blurred and which should be public record? Kraft should receive the same standard. The jury/courtroom can watch the videos in full to determine guilt or innocence.

I just don’t think you understand this topic.

The court, law enforcement, government doesn’t publish the video.
The law says that an entity can request information in the possession of the government just like the federal FOIL law.
That’s it. Your comments imply that you believe law enforcement is going to post a video.
All the government is allowed/compelled to do is provide the information to those requesting it. You also incorrectly considered this “punishment”. Sunshine laws have absolutely nothing to do with sentencing.

So what it boils down to is that there are laws that govern what information in the possession of the government should be allowed to be seen by someone requesting it and which information they can choose to keep secret and private.
My point is the ironic part of your argument if you seem to be arguing from an anti-government, anti-law enforcement viewpoint yet you are advancing a belief that we should INCREASE the ability for them to keep information private.
If you don’t want to recognize that this increase the ability for government officials to keep damaging information private, to conduct illegal investigations and be shielded from anyone finding out, and having the ability to commit further abuses, then you aren’t able to have an honest discussion.

Sunshine laws are there to “shine the light” on prohibited practices and coverups by the government not to shine the light on bob krafts junk. Freedom of information cuts both ways.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I just don’t think you understand this topic.

The court, law enforcement, government doesn’t publish the video.
The law says that an entity can request information in the possession of the government just like the federal FOIL law.
That’s it. Your comments imply that you believe law enforcement is going to post a video.
All the government is allowed/compelled to do is provide the information to those requesting it. You also incorrectly considered this “punishment”. Sunshine laws have absolutely nothing to do with sentencing.

So what it boils down to is that there are laws that govern what information in the possession of the government should be allowed to be seen by someone requesting it and which information they can choose to keep secret and private.
My point is the ironic part of your argument if you seem to be arguing from an anti-government, anti-law enforcement viewpoint yet you are advancing a belief that we should INCREASE the ability for them to keep information private.
If you don’t want to recognize that this increase the ability for government officials to keep damaging information private, to conduct illegal investigations and be shielded from anyone finding out, and having the ability to commit further abuses, then you aren’t able to have an honest discussion.

Sunshine laws are there to “shine the light” on prohibited practices and coverups by the government not to shine the light on bob krafts junk. Freedom of information cuts both ways.

No, frankly you don't understand the issue.

The legislature and voters create laws. They can rightfully be criticized for allowing these moronic Sunshine laws/policies to include pornography for a non-violent misdemeanor.

The judiciary system is another check and balance with the power to override these laws based on the state constitution, and that can go up to the SCOTUS if Florida's laws are in conflict with the US constitution.

I'm furious with the law enforcement tactics used in this case.

The Sunshine part is a whole other issue that infuriates me, which is Floridians being idiots to let this be an abomination of personal privacy rights.

You seem to be under the impression that just because something is a current law or state policy, it's all good and above reproach.

In the end, what is pissing people off here is that Florida sucks. Blame the people/voters,the politicians, the judges, Jupiter police. This fact this video was even obtained the way it was, and that it is now due to be public information, is absolute stupidity. Just wait a few years when an appeals court or the SCOTUS destroys this idiocy, and then come back here. Try to be ahead of the curve and recognize when something is off and needs to be changed, not part of the herd that appears to think laws are immutable and final. There have been many, many valid points in this thread about why this entire ordeal is incredibly concerning to society, and damn Robert Kraft, this isn't about the Patriots...it's about a totally messed up system in Florida.

 

[PatsWSB47]

The inentions may be pure though I'm not convinced they are. Its reckless because the people who request it will post it. Certain groups and individuals cant wait to get their hands on it with no other intention in mind. Dont be naive.

 

[borg]

It’s not about a late life crisis, it’s about dealing with loss. It says a lot about Myra

Disagree

Loss has nothing to do with a guy needing to take care of a little "business"....business he has handled in one form or another since television switched to color.

The 'easy for consumption' narrative that currently explains Bob's remarkably speedy evolution.... pre and post Myra:
From wholesome devoted husband ...
To horn dog widower

I argue this neatly packaged narrative ignores what I view as extensive writing on the wall.

Loss had nothing to do with Wannabe Bob, sporting his fresh kicks and his $5000 Brooks Brothers suits, becoming a Hollywood star-fu*ker..... filling his sky box with booze. actors and musicians for the past 2 decades.....diving deep into the world of celebrity from coast to coast. Bob has become pass key holder with exclusive privileges.

And call me skeptical in accepting the narrative of when "lonely" Bob's sidepiece came on board or how the billionaire handled his "business" at any time in the past. I'm not ready to give the guy who appeared perpetually intoxicated on camera the benefit of the doubt. Party time typically leads to "PARTY TIME" ....if you know what I mean.



Bob's been operating like a player in one form or another for two decades.
The only difference now:
Bob got caught with the Asian's hand on his cookie next to the tip jar.

 

[Ring 6]

No, frankly you don't understand the issue.

The legislature and voters create laws. They can rightfully be criticized for allowing these moronic Sunshine laws/policies to include pornography for a non-violent misdemeanor.

How do sunshine laws “include pornography”.
You are taking the narrowest of views of laws designing to prevent government corruption and acting as if they promote it.

The judiciary system is another check and balance with the power to override these laws based on the state constitution, and that can go up to the SCOTUS if Florida's laws are in conflict with the US constitution.

There is no reason to believe a FOIL based law is unconstitutional.
Again you seem to think the law says that the gucernemt must/can publicly air kraft getting a hummer. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm furious with the law enforcement tactics used in this case.

A lot of what is out there is rumor so I won’t comment on that yet.

The Sunshine part is a whole other issue that infuriates me, which is Floridians being idiots to let this be an abomination of personal privacy rights.

So you don’t think the government should be transparent?
I’m curious why you feel public knowledge of facts about criminal behavior is not only a bad thing but such a bad thing that it should eliminate laws that were designed to protect people against the government.

You seem to be under the impression that just because something is a current law or state policy, it's all good and above reproach.

Nothing I said even remotely suggests that.
Not even close.

I am saying
1) sunshine laws benefit citizens by making government more transparent
2) changing a law over one incident and creating precedent will have untold consequences that are the opposite of what you want

In the end, what is pissing people off here is that Florida sucks. Blame the people/voters,the politicians, the judges, Jupiter police. This fact this video was even obtained the way it was, and that it is now due to be public information, is absolute stupidity.

If it is ruled the video was obtained illegally it won’t become public information. I don’t believe they will rule that way but if they do it gets shielded. Again, arguing against sunshine laws because your misunderstand them gets us nowhere.

Just wait a few years when an appeals court or the SCOTUS destroys this idiocy, and then come back here. Try to be ahead of the curve and recognize when something is off and needs to be changed, not part of the herd that appears to think laws are immutable and final.

I 100% support transparent government and support the rights of citizens and the media to obtain the information relating to the investigations of the police. I 100% disagree with putting a cloak over a government investigation.
Let’s say that all the people arrested were poor. And they all pled guilty. And let’s say the video were illegally obtained. Do you realize the sunshine laws would be the only thing to expose what happened?
Sunshine laws are designed to prevent miscarriage of justice. Their use is 99% for good cause and to protect citizens. They weren’t enacted for TMZ.
I would rather have a law that exposes people railroaded for crimes that also has the consequence of a criminal having embarrassing information made public than line in a police state where no one can see what the police did to investigate a crime.
You are arguing in favor of protecting the cover up, as a consequence to poor bob being embarrassed by something illegal he acted really did.

There have been many, many valid points in this thread about why this entire ordeal is incredibly concerning to society, and damn Robert Kraft, this isn't about the Patriots...it's about a totally messed up system in Florida.

The only reasonable argument is that resources were wasted on an insignificant crime. Again, I try to think in the big picture and when we start deciding which crimes aren’t crimes all he’ll breaks lose.

 

[venecol]

Jupiter PD begins investigation in late October 2018, conducting 24-hr surveillance for over a week in November. They conduct traffic stops of johns on January 10th.

JPD apply for sneak-n-peak warrant on 15-Jan.
Judge signs warrant on 15-Jan for 5 days.
JPD install cameras on 18-Jan.
Kraft visits spa on 19-Jan & 20-Jan.
JPD stops surveillance on 20-Jan.

Coincidence, bad timing or something else?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

How do sunshine laws “include pornography”.
You are taking the narrowest of views of laws designing to prevent government corruption and acting as if they promote it.


There is no reason to believe a FOIL based law is unconstitutional.
Again you seem to think the law says that the gucernemt must/can publicly air kraft getting a hummer. Nothing could be further from the truth.


A lot of what is out there is rumor so I won’t comment on that yet.


So you don’t think the government should be transparent?
I’m curious why you feel public knowledge of facts about criminal behavior is not only a bad thing but such a bad thing that it should eliminate laws that were designed to protect people against the government.


Nothing I said even remotely suggests that.
Not even close.

I am saying
1) sunshine laws benefit citizens by making government more transparent
2) changing a law over one incident and creating precedent will have untold consequences that are the opposite of what you want


If it is ruled the video was obtained illegally it won’t become public information. I don’t believe they will rule that way but if they do it gets shielded. Again, arguing against sunshine laws because your misunderstand them gets us nowhere.




I 100% support transparent government and support the rights of citizens and the media to obtain the information relating to the investigations of the police. I 100% disagree with putting a cloak over a government investigation.
Let’s say that all the people arrested were poor. And they all pled guilty. And let’s say the video were illegally obtained. Do you realize the sunshine laws would be the only thing to expose what happened?
Sunshine laws are designed to prevent miscarriage of justice. Their use is 99% for good cause and to protect citizens. They weren’t enacted for TMZ.
I would rather have a law that exposes people railroaded for crimes that also has the consequence of a criminal having embarrassing information made public than line in a police state where no one can see what the police did to investigate a crime.
You are arguing in favor of protecting the cover up, as a consequence to poor bob being embarrassed by something illegal he acted really did.




The only reasonable argument is that resources were wasted on an insignificant crime. Again, I try to think in the big picture and when we start deciding which crimes aren’t crimes all he’ll breaks lose.

My god...let's just move on.

 

[PatsWSB47]

"And when you pray, do not babble on repeating your words over and over the way AJ does, for he thinks he will be heard for his much speaking". Mathew 6:7.....sort of

 

[Ring 6]

My god...let's just move on.

I’m not sure why you would startva discussion, try to argue your poor and then act dismayed and offended that someone had a different viewpoint.

 

[Ring 6]

Jupiter PD begins investigation in late October 2018, conducting 24-hr surveillance for over a week in November. They conduct traffic stops of johns on January 10th.

JPD apply for sneak-n-peak warrant on 15-Jan.
Judge signs warrant on 15-Jan for 5 days.
JPD install cameras on 18-Jan.
Kraft visits spa on 19-Jan & 20-Jan.
JPD stops surveillance on 20-Jan.

Coincidence or bad timing?

Probably deprmds upon how many other times kraft visited.

 

[Ring 6]

"And when you pray, do not babble on repeating your words over and over the way AJ does, for he thinks he will be heard for his much speaking". Mathew 6:7.....sort of

I recognize your obsession with me but it’s really not necessary and in fact kind of creepy.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Disagree

Loss has nothing to do with a guy needing to take care of a little "business"....business he has handled in one form or another since television switched to color.

The 'easy for consumption' narrative that currently explains Bob's remarkably speedy evolution.... pre and post Myra:
From wholesome devoted husband ...
To horn dog widower

I argue this neatly packaged narrative ignores what I view as extensive writing on the wall.

Loss had nothing to do with Wannabe Bob, sporting his fresh kicks and his $5000 Brooks Brothers suits, becoming a Hollywood star-fu*ker..... filling his sky box with booze. actors and musicians for the past 2 decades.....diving deep into the world of celebrity from coast to coast. Bob has become pass key holder with exclusive privileges.

And call me skeptical in accepting the narrative of when "lonely" Bob's sidepiece came on board or how the billionaire handled his "business" at any time in the past. I'm not ready to give the guy who appeared perpetually intoxicated on camera the benefit of the doubt. Party time typically leads to "PARTY TIME" ....if you know what I mean.

View attachment 23086

Bob's been operating like a player in one form or another for two decades.
The only difference now:
Bob got caught with the Asian's hand on his cookie next to the tip jar.

My OPINION is that Myra’s loss plays a key role in Kraft’s behavior and your OPINION is that it doesn’t.

Both are opinions with equal weight. And that’s ok.

 

[venecol]

Motion to suppress hearing on 26-Apr-19.

 

[Joker]

Judge Hanser looks like s friggin' undertaker..this whole sordid mess seems like a Twilight Zone episode

 

[maust]

Judge Hanser looks like s friggin' undertaker..this whole sordid mess seems like a Twilight Zone episode

I don't know, he was good in Poltergeist 2.
Only thing missing in that pic is the hat...

 

[fnordcircle]

Judge Hanser looks like s friggin' undertaker..this whole sordid mess seems like a Twilight Zone episode

Well not everyone has aged as gracefully as you, precious. Jeez.

 

[venecol]

Judge Hanser looks like s friggin' undertaker..this whole sordid mess seems like a Twilight Zone episode

Judge seemed in awe of Atty Spiro with his heavy NY accent at the hearing. Asked him if his name was pronounced Spee-ro or Spy-ro. Southern judge with NY attorney defending a guy that was in the wrong place at the wrong time. My cousin Vinny Part Deux. Question is who's the Mona Lisa Vito?

 

[NormZauchin]

No, frankly you don't understand the issue.

The legislature and voters create laws. They can rightfully be criticized for allowing these moronic Sunshine laws/policies to include pornography for a non-violent misdemeanor.

The judiciary system is another check and balance with the power to override these laws based on the state constitution, and that can go up to the SCOTUS if Florida's laws are in conflict with the US constitution.

I'm furious with the law enforcement tactics used in this case.

The Sunshine part is a whole other issue that infuriates me, which is Floridians being idiots to let this be an abomination of personal privacy rights.

You seem to be under the impression that just because something is a current law or state policy, it's all good and above reproach.

In the end, what is pissing people off here is that Florida sucks. Blame the people/voters,the politicians, the judges, Jupiter police. This fact this video was even obtained the way it was, and that it is now due to be public information, is absolute stupidity. Just wait a few years when an appeals court or the SCOTUS destroys this idiocy, and then come back here. Try to be ahead of the curve and recognize when something is off and needs to be changed, not part of the herd that appears to think laws are immutable and final. There have been many, many valid points in this thread about why this entire ordeal is incredibly concerning to society, and damn Robert Kraft, this isn't about the Patriots...it's about a totally messed up system in Florida.

Quite a few friends of mine have moved to Florida upon retiring. As a result, I have a number of standing invitations to visit and stay for a time. I have yet to take up any of the offers, in part, for the craziness of the politics. Second reason, I want no part of a very large state whose highest elevation is 345 feet.

 

[maust]

Judge seemed in awe of Atty Spiro with his heavy NY accent at the hearing. Asked him if his name was pronounced Spee-ro or Spy-ro. Southern judge with NY attorney defending a guy that was in the wrong place at the wrong time. My cousin Vinny Part Deux. Question is who's the Mona Lisa Vito?

 

[LJRomanoff]

This thread has turned into a lot of this: garfield minus garfield for me as I've had to put so many crusading wackos on ignore.