Lebron James and NBA Discussion!

[TB_Helmet]

You keep posting garbage like this. It keeps being garbage.

As long as a player was the better player when both players were at their best, and their respective bests were long enough to matter, then that player is the better player. Short times of excellence that are limited by injury do not prevent people from understanding the greatness of the player, as long as the term isn't too short to get a fair read on the extent of that greatness. That's how short careered players make it into the various Halls of Fame. That's simply common sense.

You can keep trying to claim otherwise, but it's an embarrassing claim to make.

Not sure how saying Michael Jordan over Bill Russell is a “garbage” and “embarrassing” claim? You might not agree with it but if you can’t see the other point of view (which as he said is by far the majority opinion) then we have some calibration problems here.

ETA: notwithstanding that point, I’m also interested in your other claim of short term greatness peak being the deciding factor in comparing two players. What is your limit for “too short to get a fair read”? 2 year? Less?

 

[lancerman]

You keep posting garbage like this. It keeps being garbage.

As long as a player was the better player when both players were at their best, and their respective bests were long enough to matter, then that player is the better player. That's simply common sense.

You can keep trying to claim otherwise, but it's an embarrassing claim to make.

Do you honestly think it is the consensus among NBA ?fandom/players/insiders/reporters whatever that Jordan isn't the GOAT over Russell? That's the question I'm asking you. The reality is anyone with a pulse knows the answer to that. I'm not saying you can't debate it and have a different opinion. I'm not even saying that there isn't a valid argument for Russell over Jordan. But I'm saying you take this outside of a Boston sports message board and you are the minority opinion.

Same with Magic vs Bird. I personally think Bird was easily better than Magic because Bird's peak was all time good and as good as anybody who ever played. But generally Magic had the superior career and most people give him the nod over Bird. But I'm also willing to acknowledge that I have a minority opinion here.

So again, yeah you will be very hard pressed to find a list that doesn't have Jordan at number 1 and Magic over Bird. Just googling "best NBA players of all time" every link I've looked at thus far has Jordan #1 and Magic over Bird. Fox Sport, CBS, Simmons, Broussards rankings, SI, ESPN, Barkley's rankings, Kevin Durant's rankings, Lebron's rankings, Reggie Miller's (who actually had Bird the highest I've seen at third, sadly he Jordan and Magic 1 and 2 for the purposes of this) Magic didn't give a list but he flat out said Jordan was the greatest who ever played, and pretty much every general ranking site I've looked at so far.

I'll play nice and say some players like Julius Irving mentioned Bill Russell in a top 5 (didn't specify if there was an order and said Elgin Baylor was his favorite) in a list that didn't include Jordan or Magic or Bird. But even he had the caveat that it was a group he had as a teenager and he wouldn't change it.

So yeah, your opinion is a minority opinion. Now I'm not saying it's wrong because at the end of the day these are all opinions and I know you are going to complain about all the sources and say they don't know what they are talking about. But that's the general consensus. Yeah we can have a really interesting discussion dissecting all of them. But if you are going to say a list should be disqualified for having Russell anywhere but 1st and Magic above Bird you are going to disqualify the vast majority of lists and tell a lot of great players their opinion is wrong. That's just not the reality of how it's viewed in the basketball community as a consensus.

 

[lancerman]

Not sure how saying Michael Jordan over Bill Russell is a “garbage” and “embarrassing” claim? You might not agree with it but if you can’t see the other point of view (which as he said is by far the majority opinion) then we have some calibration problems here.

ETA: notwithstanding that point, I’m also interested in your other claim of short term greatness peak being the deciding factor in comparing two players. What is your limit for “too short to get a fair read”? 2 year? Less?

The thing is I'm not even arguing for one over the other. I'm just pointing out that the vast majority of the basketball community has Jordan as the GOAT and if he is going to dismiss someone for having that opinion he's going to be dismissing the vast majority of analysts and players. It's just not reality to say that it's a kooky disqualifying opinion.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don’t really want to get drawn into this, and as Deus says you can’t really compare players at different positions, but to say McHale is better than Magic is a tough sell, man. I don’t think you’re gonna get very many people following you into battle on that one.

Just to piggy back off your post:

The way to go is to just accept that top 5 or top 10 guys at a position are at the top of the chain, and to then realize that any out of position comparisons are going to be inherently unfair, and destined for really silly claims. That largely mitigates the stupidity of people trying to put someone above Russell, for example.

For example:

Magic wasn't the key to the Lakers, though he gets a lot of the credit. The key to the Lakers was Kareem. If you were to give an honest evaluation of Celtics/Lakers 80's matchups based on talent and impact/importance, you'd be doing something like

Bird v. Kareem
McHale v. Magic
Parrish v. Worthy
etc...

So Magic was benefiting from the fact that, in an era when centers were still king as the transition was slowly being made to wing dominance, he was paired with the better center.

 

[DarrylS]

Kareen and I are contemporaries, in High School there was a tournament in Newport.. Eastern States Catholic Invitational Tournamene (ESCIT)... where powerhouses like DeMatha, Power Memorial, Catholic Memorial, Archbishop Carroll as well as my high school De La Salle as the host..

Had the privilege of watching the then Lew Alcindor as a High Schooler, needless to say he was impressive..

 

[Uptown]

Only way the Lakers could top (the move, not the team itself) what GS did, would be to acquire Anthony Davis.

 

[primetime]

Believe whatever you want, but Larry Bird isn't a thing if he was born 19 years ago.

I agree with you for the most part on eras and physical advantages, and I'm on Lebron being the best all-time, but I actually think Bird would have been better in this era than in the one he played in. He was a 40% 3pt shooter and they would have let him jack up a lot more 3s nowadays. He wasn't quite the outside shooter of someone like Klay Thompson, but he was much better going to the rim (and a much better defender). Figure they double or more the number of threes he shoots each game to 6 or 7, Bird might have averaged above 30 for several years. Question becomes whether could hold up inside with 280 lb guys banging on him.

 

[primetime]

Lakers will have a bunch of room next year. I think Brandon Ingram will be really good, less sure about Ball, who doesn't seem to be able to shoot at all. Kawhi seems inevitable, but who else? Love, Kyrie, Gasol, Klay? Does a starting 5 of Lebron, Ingram, Kawhi, Love, and Lopez challenge the Warriors? I don't see any path to a championship team here, even assuming age doesn't start creeping up on Lebron. Unless they could get Davis or Giannis or someone in a trade.

One year can change a lot, though. Isaiah was the hottest player in the league this time last year.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

Lebroni went to a worse situation imo. It seems like winning wasn’t a part of the move to L.A. Too many young parts and Lebroni can’t babysit. Maybe they win 13 more games. 48 games maybe.

 

[Ring 6]

The will to win is what propelled a lot of those all time greats who were not physically the tops even during their time to out perform people who would run faster and were stronger. But there's a limit to how much the will to win can launch someone to outperform their more physically gifted peers.

And then you have guys like Bo, Brown, Barry Sanders or Michael Jordan who were freaks in their time. They wouldn't have their physical advantage to rely on today. The things that made them look like a man among boys would be canceled out by how many opportunities are afforded to athletically-gifted kids today.

I grew up watching those guys. I looooved rooting against MJ but was in awe of his pure will to win. In today's NBA he might still be a top guy but not the complete freak he was then. Same with Bo, Barry and Brown.



I'm old. I watched the C's regularly during the 6pack era. Tell someone else to get off of your lawn.

Believe whatever you want, but Larry Bird isn't a thing if he was born 19 years ago.

You cannot know anything about basketball to make that comment about Bird.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

Lakers will have a bunch of room next year. I think Brandon Ingram will be really good, less sure about Ball, who doesn't seem to be able to shoot at all. Kawhi seems inevitable, but who else? Love, Kyrie, Gasol, Klay? Does a starting 5 of Lebron, Ingram, Kawhi, Love, and Lopez challenge the Warriors? I don't see any path to a championship team here, even assuming age doesn't start creeping up on Lebron. Unless they could get Davis or Giannis or someone in a trade.

One year can change a lot, though. Isaiah was the hottest player in the league this time last year.

They won’t have a bunch of room. Might save a max contract for leonard. Lebron will be going on 35.

 

[LaterGator]

They won’t have a bunch of room. Might save a max contract for leonard. Lebron will be going on 35.

They can create a lot of room. Most of the deals they are doing now are 1 year deals. They can also create space by dealing off Deng and his expiring contract with an asset.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

They can create a lot of room. Most of the deals they are doing now are 1 year deals. They can also create space by dealing off Deng and his expiring contract with an asset.

Yes if you get a dumb team to take it. They’re wasting a year of Lebroni this season. I see the roster right now and maybe it makes the playoffs but i don’t think they’re better than the warriors or rockets.

 

[primetime]

They won’t have a bunch of room. Might save a max contract for leonard. Lebron will be going on 35.

Cap will be going up next year and they have a bunch of one year deals. They'll be able to deal Deng's expiring next year, though they'll probably have to give up a 1st to do it. They'll have room for two maxes or near-maxes. Kawhi seems inevitable, the question is who is the other one.

Yes if you get a dumb team to take it. They’re wasting a year of Lebroni this season. I see the roster right now and maybe it makes the playoffs but i don’t think they’re better than the warriors or rockets.

Lebron alone makes them probably the 5th or 6th best team in the West with a lineup of Rondo-Ingram-Lance-Lebron-Lopez and McGee and Ball off the bench. Weird thing about that team is how old school it is. Slow pace, work it to the post, very good defensively. Though the best outside shooters are Ingram and the bigs.

I think their hopes probably lie with the development of one or both of Ingram and Ball. If both bear fruit this year, they might be able to deal one as the centerpiece of a Anthony Davis or Giannis trade and keep the other. And you'd need to do that and deal for Kawhi (and the Spurs apparently have already rejected a Kawhi trade with Ingram at the center), and that's going to be tough. But that's probably the only path forward, and it's a very narrow one.

 

[patsfan13]

No I said they were better than everyone not named Russell and Bird. Someone made a ranking and had Russell at 1 and Bird at 2 then a toss up between McHale and Garnett. I said Wilt/Shaq/Kareem/Magic/Kobe/West were all better than both guys he had ranked 3

How many Centers do you put on the floor at the same time?

Though not in their primes Tiny Archibald, Pete Maravich and Bill Walton were also Celtics.
One could also include Reggie Lewis who life was tragically cut short.


BTW do you think Dan Marino and P Manning are better QB's than TFB?

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

Cap will be going up next year and they have a bunch of one year deals. They'll be able to deal Deng's expiring next year, though they'll probably have to give up a 1st to do it. They'll have room for two maxes or near-maxes. Kawhi seems inevitable, the question is who is the other one.



Lebron alone makes them probably the 5th or 6th best team in the West with a lineup of Rondo-Ingram-Lance-Lebron-Lopez and McGee and Ball off the bench. I think their hopes probably lie with the development of one or both of Ingram and Ball. If both bear fruit this year, they might be able to deal one as the centerpiece of a Anthony Davis or Giannis trade and keep the other. And you'd need to do that and deal for Kawhi, and that's going to be tough. But that's probably the only path forward, and it's a very narrow one.

Prime time those guys ain’t getting traded for whatever the lakers have. I feel magic screwed up here and i don’t see how ball’s development will be better with lebron james being there. Wouldn’t shock me if he gets dealt. Rondo will be starting

 

[Tunescribe]

This is sad and funny at the same time. Link: LIVE: LeBron's icon banner in Cleveland comes down - CNN

Imagine Brady leaving, coming back and leaving again. I assume LeBron will return to Cleveland in a Lakers uniform for the regular season. How will fans "greet" him?

 

[LaterGator]

Yes if you get a dumb team to take it. They’re wasting a year of Lebroni this season. I see the roster right now and maybe it makes the playoffs but i don’t think they’re better than the warriors or rockets.

Expiring contracts have value as they can be used as salary offsets. Adding another asset increases the appeal. This year looks like a stop-gap defensive team. They should make the playoffs. Next year they will be in position to add more significant pieces.

 

[BTTA]

This is sad and funny at the same time. Link: LIVE: LeBron's icon banner in Cleveland comes down - CNN

Imagine Brady leaving, coming back and leaving again. I assume LeBron will return to Cleveland in a Lakers uniform for the regular season. How will fans "greet" him?

It'll be the one game that Cleveland sells out next year. It may be the only game where they have 10,000+ fans in attendance.

 

[lancerman]

How many Centers do you put on the floor at the same time?

Though not in their primes Tiny Archibald, Pete Maravich and Bill Walton were also Celtics.
One could also include Reggie Lewis who life was tragically cut short.


BTW do you think Dan Marino and P Manning are better QB's than TFB?

Again after Russell and Bird who on the Celtics would you put over Lebron (SF) Magic (PG), West (PG/SG), Wilt (C), Kareem (C), Shaq (C) Kobe (SG), ? Yeah they are stacked at center with two top 5 player of all time and another top 10 or 15. It’s just too bad the 3 other positions feature the best player of the 2010’s (Lebron), the best of the 2000’s (Kobe) and one of the top two players of the 80’s (Magic). Magic, Kobe, Lebron, Kareem, and Wilt are 5 players they have in the top 10 all time. Also they were all better than the 4 players you mentioned.

Also that’s a straw man I think Brady is better than both and have argued as such plenty of times. Some of you need to stop throwing tantrums over people not propping up every Boston athlete over everyone.