An Interesting Ranking List

[DarrylS]

How long with fans lament the loss of Chandler Jones?? He went to a team with a completely different defense that the Pats play, and has done well.. how he plays in Arizona would probably not happen in Foxborough.

Next up what a great player Jamie Collins was.....

 

[mosi]

Yeah, in many ways, this Defense played well over its head. Their best player, a guy I think most people would agree they could not lose, they lost (Hightower). The second guy I would have said at the start of the season would have been Butler (no need to discuss) and McCourty. This defense just lacks playmakers in the front 7 (without Hightower). I can think of only 1-2 starters on the Eagles D that would be starters for a team like the Eagles or Jags or Vikings. They just lack talent.

 

[maineman209]

The scouting report descriptions here are often interesting and sometimes educational, but also revealing (of the authors' POV) in how much weight they give to past (sometimes long past) performance for some players and not for others, and in how inconsistent they are about noting in what aspects rookies might yet improve (e.g., Adam Butler, who is apparently downgraded for lack of strength and incomplete technique).

They also appear to often make excuses for some players who they've ranked high. The scouting also rarely make distinctions between players who've been with the same team/system for years, or who switched teams/systems this past season, or discusses what a player's role might be within a given defense.

IOW, it's all opinion glossed over with a patina of "objectivity".

In any case, ordinal rankings are always extremely misleading, especially where a 1-point score difference can make a 15-20 place difference in a player's "ranking". Not to mention that the scores themselves are subjective.

And then, there are issues with categorizations. E.g., Lawrence Guy, at 305 lbs, is not ranked with 3-4 ends or DTs, but exclusively with 4-3 DEs - and scored according to that set of standards.

Pieces like this can, and often do, offer value as an additional observational perspective - if one pays attention to the text (worth the read), rather than to the (relatively worthless) numbers. As an indicator of some level of "talent" - that ambiguous and fluid "standard" that some fans think of as completely quantifiable and immutable - nah, not for me.

But then, I clearly have absolutely ZERO respect for self-proclaimed authority.

Give folks something to argue about, though.

 

[primetime]

Would you invest 83 million into that position though?

I think you have to if you want that level of a pass rusher. It's the one position besides quarterback and cornerback where I probably would be willing to pay that.

I think the return on the trade was fine and what it turned into was good, but Jones is legitimately a top-3 pass rusher and probably the best run defender at the edge in the NFL as well. He's not Von Miller, but he's half a step below, and I'd open the bank for Miller.

 

[Nonentity]

The thing is though, the entire DL has to create pressure, otherwise the opposing OL can simply shift blockers over to your star man's side.

Sure, he'll pick up sacks over the course of the season, and his stats will look lovely, but it's not the same as being able to pressure the QB every snap (e.g. Seahawks & Broncos from a couple of years ago).


I've always been comfortable with Bill's strategy of setting the edge, stopping the opposition from being able to run for 1st downs, and trying to force the opposition into 3rd and longs. You can then sell out against the pass, and statistically it should work well for you over the course of a game.

Of course, it runs into trouble against teams with elite QBs or elite running offenses, as we've seen in years past. Which is why in 2014 we saw the rewards of improving the defensive backfield - Revis/Browner/McCourty/Chung/Ryan/Harmon are the best Patriots backfield I've ever seen in the spread offense era.

I think the last 2-3 years have seen a rebound in the importance of all-round linebackers who can handle both the run and coverage - just look at how good Kuechly and Davis have been for Carolina. RPOs just emphasise this even more. We need a set of LBs who can handle it all.

 

[everlong]

It's not that they lost any one player, and there were reasons for all of them. But in a short span they lost from their front seven Jones, Collins, Hicks, Long, Sheard, Ninkovich, Branch (coaches decision) and Hightower (injury). Collectively that's a ton of talent which wasn't replaced.

 

[ivanvamp]

No team can have pro bowlers at every position constantly. Guys get good, and then they get expensive, and you can't keep them all. You know... salary cap thingy.

Obviously the Patriots do a great job year in and year out managing the roster and the cap. Or else they wouldn't be going to the AFCCG every frigging year.

Do they sometimes have to let great players go? Yep. It happens. For everyone.

 

[maineman209]

It's not that they lost any one player, and there were reasons for all of them. But in a short span they lost from their front seven Jones, Collins, Hicks, Long, Sheard, Ninkovich, Branch (coaches decision) and Hightower (injury). Collectively that's a ton of talent which wasn't replaced.

It wasn't as much "talent" the Pats lost as experience.

The majority of the snaps for the 2017 front-7 were handled by players with little or no experience in the Pats system and/or little or no NFL experience, period.

 

[maineman209]

No team can have pro bowlers at every position constantly. Guys get good, and then they get expensive, and you can't keep them all. You know... salary cap thingy.

Obviously the Patriots do a great job year in and year out managing the roster and the cap. Or else they wouldn't be going to the AFCCG every frigging year.

Do they sometimes have to let great players go? Yep. It happens. For everyone.

The Eagles just won a Superbowl with numerous payers being paid at a superstar level. And, now they're in "cap hell" for 2018 and 2019.

Hoping that Eagles fans really enjoy their moment, because this may not have been the start of any "dynasty" in Philly.

 

[Nonentity]

It's not that they lost any one player, and there were reasons for all of them. But in a short span they lost from their front seven Jones, Collins, Hicks, Long, Sheard, Ninkovich, Branch (coaches decision) and Hightower (injury). Collectively that's a ton of talent which wasn't replaced.

I absolutely agree. And our last few drafts haven't been great either.

Since 2014, in Rounds 1 & 2, we've drafted Easley (bust), Garoppolo (an elite backup), Malcom Brown (fine), Jordan Richards (vomit), 2016 NFL/Deflategate Thievery™, Cyrus Jones (surprising bust), and then last year we spent a 1st rounder on Brandin Cooks.

I'm not blaming Bill for any of these individual decisions, but realistically it's been a 4 year run of draft failure at improving the team.

Look, by the very nature of our success, we're penalised every season by having to draft at the end of each round. So it's tough, and there'll never be any easy home-runs in the draft for us.

But we need a couple of good drafts to reload the team, and I think the 'end of an era' narrative has some foundations in this. Free agency can only get us so far.

 

[mosi]

The Eagles just won a Superbowl with numerous payers being paid at a superstar level. And, now they're in "cap hell" for 2018 and 2019.

Hoping that Eagles fans really enjoy their moment, because this may not have been the start of any "dynasty" in Philly.

I can tell you for them, it was worth it. 1010% worth it.

I think as Pats fans, we forgot how hard and to a large part, how infrequent it is to play in a super bowl let alone win one.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I happened to come across this list that ranked all positions in the NFL this year by the Top 100. They gave a grade breakdown, explanation, and more. I found it really interesting to notice the lack of Patriots' talent on the DLine to be particularly interesting.

NFL1000: Ranking the Top Defensive Tackles of 2017 Season

You can go through and look at other positions as well.

Chung 2nd best SS and McCourty 2nd best FS.


Malcolm Butler ranked 42nd at corner, so an above average starting second cornerback. Would have been nice to have in the Super Bowl instead of Jordan Richards.

What was lazy/wrong in the report was they listed his slow 40 time. There was an article timing the actual play speed of all players and Malcolm Butler was the Patriots FASTEST defender on the entire team....

 

[HailHydra]

Chung 2nd best SS and McCourty 2nd best FS.


Malcolm Butler ranked 42nd at corner, so an above average starting second cornerback. Would have been nice to have in the Super Bowl instead of Jordan Richards.

What was lazy/wrong in the report was they listed his slow 40 time. There was an article timing the actual play speed of all players and Malcolm Butler was the Patriots FASTEST defender on the entire team....

Reading that made me remember that stat during the Super Bowl of how Chris Hogan had an EXTREMELY fast time that even surpassed Brandin Cooks' by a fine margin. Anyone happen to remember the specifics?

 

[BTTA]

The scouting report descriptions here are often interesting and sometimes educational, but also revealing (of the authors' POV) in how much weight they give to past (sometimes long past) performance for some players and not for others, and in how inconsistent they are about noting in what aspects rookies might yet improve (e.g., Adam Butler, who is apparently downgraded for lack of strength and incomplete technique).

They also appear to often make excuses for some players who they've ranked high. The scouting also rarely make distinctions between players who've been with the same team/system for years, or who switched teams/systems this past season, or discusses what a player's role might be within a given defense.

IOW, it's all opinion glossed over with a patina of "objectivity".

In any case, ordinal rankings are always extremely misleading, especially where a 1-point score difference can make a 15-20 place difference in a player's "ranking". Not to mention that the scores themselves are subjective.

And then, there are issues with categorizations. E.g., Lawrence Guy, at 305 lbs, is not ranked with 3-4 ends or DTs, but exclusively with 4-3 DEs - and scored according to that set of standards.

Pieces like this can, and often do, offer value as an additional observational perspective - if one pays attention to the text (worth the read), rather than to the (relatively worthless) numbers. As an indicator of some level of "talent" - that ambiguous and fluid "standard" that some fans think of as completely quantifiable and immutable - nah, not for me.

But then, I clearly have absolutely ZERO respect for self-proclaimed authority.

Give folks something to argue about, though.

Yes, and even if that particular ranking is off by a large margin, it appears that the Pats are relying on an interior DL that is made up of average players, at best. I think our guys fall right in the middle third of the roughly 100 DT's. Adding a playmaker to that group of disciplined, average players would make a big difference. And I think, be worth a cap hit.

 

[Soliel]

The Eagles just won a Superbowl with numerous payers being paid at a superstar level. And, now they're in "cap hell" for 2018 and 2019.

Hoping that Eagles fans really enjoy their moment, because this may not have been the start of any "dynasty" in Philly.

Your right. They are 9 million over the cap as we speak. Now if that were the pats it would be a major scandal and we would be robbed of picks, fined, suspended, drawn and quartered

 

[HailHydra]

Your right. They are 9 million over the cap as we speak. Now if that were the pats it would be a major scandal and we would be robbed of picks, fined, suspended, drawn and quartered

Eagles Dynasty 2017-2018

 

[Jlaff]

The Eagles just won a Superbowl with numerous payers being paid at a superstar level. And, now they're in "cap hell" for 2018 and 2019.

Hoping that Eagles fans really enjoy their moment, because this may not have been the start of any "dynasty" in Philly.

That's what took great deal of the sting away from the loss for me. It's nice to win in a year you go "all-in". It's far nicer to make the AFCCG/Superbowl year after year with the Pat's disciplined approached to personnel, even if your team is not necessarily dominant in any of those years.

 

[Joker]

this team goes 8-8 and half this board will commit ritual sepukku...Pats fan...through thick and thin. YOU are NOT the "knowers of things"...YOU are fans. YOUR job is to support your team. Football is a war game. You don't bleat like goddamned sheep because you don't "weeeee-un!" every game.

 

[bigballas]

Shirtless Chandler Jones went to police station looking for help

If you think a BB coached team is going to turn its' eyes away from the EVIDENT MASSIVE ILLEGAL DRUG OVERDOSE you belong rooting for the NY Rats and their ship of drunks, 140 mph reckless driving drug using child endangering miscreants and team cancers.Krist ,what a bunch of football morons.

what was illegal? last i checked bad judgement isnt illegal...

 

[maineman209]

I absolutely agree. And our last few drafts haven't been great either.

Since 2014, in Rounds 1 & 2, we've drafted Easley (bust), Garoppolo (an elite backup), Malcom Brown (fine), Jordan Richards (vomit), 2016 NFL/Deflategate Thievery™, Cyrus Jones (surprising bust), and then last year we spent a 1st rounder on Brandin Cooks.

I'm not blaming Bill for any of these individual decisions, but realistically it's been a 4 year run of draft failure at improving the team.

Look, by the very nature of our success, we're penalised every season by having to draft at the end of each round. So it's tough, and there'll never be any easy home-runs in the draft for us.

But we need a couple of good drafts to reload the team, and I think the 'end of an era' narrative has some foundations in this. Free agency can only get us so far.

PATRIOTS DRAFTS under BB:

2000 - 10 picks
... Brady, 6th, #199

2001 - 10 picks
... Seymour, 1st, #6
... Matt Light, 2nd, #48

2002 - 6 picks
... Daniel Graham, 1st #21
... Branch, 2nd, #65
... Jarvis Green, 4th #126
... Givens, 7th, #253

2003 - 10 picks
... Ty Warren, 1st, #13
... Eugene Wilson, 2nd, #36
... Asante Samuel, 4th, #120
... Dan Koppen, 4th #164
... Tully Banta-Cain, 7th, #239

2004 - 8 picks
... Wilfork, 1st, #21
... Watson, 1st, #32

2005 - 7 picks
... Mankins, 1st, #32
... Ellis Hobbs, 3rd, #84
... Nick Kaczur, 3rd, #100
... James Sanders, 4th, #133
... Matt Cassell, 7th, #230

2006 - 10 picks
... Maroney, 1st, #21
... David Thomas, 3rd, #86
... Gost, 4th, #118

2007 - 9 picks
... Meriweather, 1st, #24

2008 - 7 picks
... Mayo, 1st, #10
... Wilhite, 4th, #129
... Slater, 5th, #153

2009 - 12 picks
... Chung, 2nd, #34
... Vollmer, 2nd, #58
... Jake Ingram, 6th, #198
... Edelman, 7th, #232

2010 - 12 picks
... McCourty, 1st, #27
... Gronk, 2nd, #42
... Spikes, 2nd, #62
... (Ahern), 4th, #113
... Mesko, 5th, #150

2011 - 9 picks
... Solder, 1st, #17
... Vereen, 2nd, #56
... Ridley, 3rd, #73
... Cannon, 5th, #138

2012 - 7 picks
... Jones, 1st, #21
... Hightower, 1st, #25
... Ebner, 6th, #197

2013 - 7 picks
... Collins, 2nd, #52
... Logan Ryan, 3rd, #83
... Harmon, 3rd, #91

2014 - 9 picks
... Garoppolo, 2nd, #62
... White, 4th, #130
... Fleming, 4th, #140

2015 - 11 picks
... Brown, 1st, #32
... Flowers, 4th, #101
... Mason, 4th, #131
... Cardona, 5th, #166

2016 - 9 picks
... Thuney, 3rd, #78
... Brissett, 3rd, #91
... Valentine, 3rd, #96
... Mitchell, 4th, #112
... Roberts, 6th, #214
... Karras, 6th, #221

2017 - 4 picks
... Wise, 4th, #131