Stephon Gilmore

[Ring 6]

Not really getting this post. You start by claiming that it's not Gilmore's fault, but then go on to describe all of the reasons why it is his fault.

By the way, he's the only change in the secondary, so when they speak of "communication issues," who exactly do you think they're referring to? We can go through film and point out issues from Butler, Rowe, and McCourty--but that doesn't prove a damn thing. The issue is clearly the new guy and his failure to diagnose responsibility and pick up assignments. As long as that's going to happen, everyone will look bad.

So no matter who screws up the new guy is at fault?
McCourty said it was him on the hill TD but people still blame Gilmore.
The pass to funchess looked like Rowe to me since he was with him then left him. Not sure how you are blaming Gilmore for the Whitaker play.
If Gilmore doing the wrong thing is clearly the issue reference some plays and tell me what he should have done. He is the only new guy isn't cutting it as analysis for me.

 

[supafly]

Just stop AJ. Gilmore is the "only" new guy in the group (who replaced Ryan). So Gilmore sucks and we made a huge mistake letting Ryan go. Can't you see how obvious it all is!

So, is the suggestion that McCourty, (a 7-8 yr vet) is suddenly having communication problems with Butler (4th year), Harmon (5th year), Chung (two separate stints as a Patriot)? That seems a bit odd.

The one change was bringing in an outside new guy who isn't diagnosing the proper coverage, picking up the right reads, failing to switch off/pass off receivers, etc. I don't doubt Gilmore or his talent, but doesn't it appear as though he's the wildcard in this scenario who hasn't adjusted to the new system, particularly in zone coverage?

Edit: that's not meaning to claim that there aren't mistakes being made by anyone else, but I do think that Gilmore being the new guy is making things more difficult.

 

[jimnance]

Fact: M.Butler has been a better cb than Gilmore prior to this season.
Many of you clueless posters laughed at me when I said that many months ago,which was ridiculous,since it's pretty indisputable.
Malcolm- 2 Pro Bowls, one All-Pro selection last 2 years; numerous big-time,clutch plays. One of the very most,if not THE most physical cbs in the NFL.
Gilmore-the 1 Pro Bowl, 0 All-Pro selections; almost zero big-time,clutch plays.
See I had the benefit of friends who are Bills fans and heard them constantly *****ing about Gilmore. He would flash some talent one game and flat-out suck the next. They were all glad to get rid of him.
What I saw was butler being the superior player,which was obvious to anyone who watched a lot of both, but I saw the "potential" with Gilmore. I believed that BB and MattyP would coach him up and he would become a top cb in the NFL.
That still could happen. I'm not going to throw Gilmore under the bus the way a lot of you did to Butler.( which is mind-boggling to me after all he's done for us).
Rowe has played like crap so far and even Dmac has not been himself.
I think we all know this situation will be fixed,one way or the other.
Butler clearly remains our best cb and he's also not been himself- tho he was better on Sunday. I still think there's too much talent there for our secondary to not be one of the best in the league by dec.
Hopefully,that won't be too late.
But yeah, I think that contract was too much.

 

[supafly]

So no matter who screws up the new guy is at fault?
McCourty said it was him on the hill TD but people still blame Gilmore.
The pass to funchess looked like Rowe to me since he was with him then left him. Not sure how you are blaming Gilmore for the Whitaker play.
If Gilmore doing the wrong thing is clearly the issue reference some plays and tell me what he should have done. He is the only new guy isn't cutting it as analysis for me.

Yes, I think it's much more likely that Gilmore is having some issues recognizing his responsibilities and being on the same page than it is having an experienced, veteran secondary suddenly forget how to execute their assignments.

If you're right and it's the latter, we may be in more trouble than I initially thought.

 

[supafly]

Fact: M.Butler has been a better cb than Gilmore prior to this season.
Many of you clueless posters laughed at me when I said that many months ago,which was ridiculous,since it's pretty indisputable.
Malcolm- 2 Pro Bowls, one All-Pro selection last 2 years; numerous big-time,clutch plays. One of the very most,if not THE most physical cbs in the NFL.
Gilmore-the 1 Pro Bowl, 0 All-Pro selections; almost zero big-time,clutch plays.
See I had the benefit of friends who are Bills fans and heard them constantly *****ing about Gilmore. He would flash some talent one game and flat-out suck the next. They were all glad to get rid of him.
What I saw was butler being the superior player,which was obvious to anyone who watched a lot of both, but I saw the "potential" with Gilmore. I believed that BB and MattyP would coach him up and he would become a top cb in the NFL.
That still could happen. I'm not going to throw Gilmore under the bus the way a lot of you did to Butler.( which is mind-boggling to me after all he's done for us).
Rowe has played like crap so far and even Dmac has not been himself.
I think we all know this situation will be fixed,one way or the other.
Butler clearly remains our best cb and he's also not been himself- tho he was better on Sunday. I still think there's too much talent there for our secondary to not be one of the best in the league by dec.
Hopefully,that won't be too late.
But yeah, I think that contract was too much.

Obviously, there are mistakes being made by more than just one person, but it seems very odd that you take one of the best secondaries in the game and switch out one player and that suddenly makes them all suck. Even worse, it seems surprising that they wouldn't be able to diagnose and react to plays any longer.

 

[jimnance]

Obviously, there are mistakes being made by more than just one person, but it seems very odd that you take one of the best secondaries in the game and switch out one player and that suddenly makes them all suck. Even worse, it seems surprising that they wouldn't be able to diagnose and react to plays any longer.

I think Hightower being out the 1st 3 games had a negative effect on the entire D. But yeah,the miscommunications are very puzzling. If it weren't for Rowe getting hurt, I think BB would've kept Gilmore benched for the rest of the Panthers game.
He's got to get on the same page and once everyone's healthy, maybe BB cuts back on Gilmore snaps until he has a better grasp. Which I hope he gets soon.

 

[mgteich]

So, is the suggestion that McCourty, (a 7-8 yr vet) is suddenly having communication problems with Butler (4th year), Harmon (5th year), Chung (two separate stints as a Patriot)? That seems a bit odd.

The one change was bringing in an outside new guy who isn't diagnosing the proper coverage, picking up the right reads, failing to switch off/pass off receivers, etc. I don't doubt Gilmore or his talent, but doesn't it appear as though he's the wildcard in this scenario who hasn't adjusted to the new system, particularly in zone coverage?

Edit: that's not meaning to claim that there aren't mistakes being made by anyone else, but I do think that Gilmore being the new guy is making things more difficult.

Patricia has them all playing very different roles. So, yes , everyone is making mistakes in what is a new system for everyone. There are problems that Gilmore. There is Gilmore, and there is also the change in roles.

 

[supafly]

Patricia has them all playing very different roles. So, yes , everyone is making mistakes in what is a new system for everyone. There are problems that Gilmore. There is Gilmore, and there is also the change in roles.

Not meaning to sound like a smartass, but why would he change everything up to make them play "very different roles?" That seems like taking a very odd and complicated path to get from A to B.

McCourty excelled in his role, as did both Chung and Harmon. Butler was considered a top 10-15 CB and did a fine job in his role. It seems as though one could argue that all they needed to do was replace the reps from Logan Ryan's role.

 

[PP2]

Obviously, there are mistakes being made by more than just one person, but it seems very odd that you take one of the best secondaries in the game and switch out one player and that suddenly makes them all suck. Even worse, it seems surprising that they wouldn't be able to diagnose and react to plays any longer.

This is what I have been thinking about for a while- is it possible to just yank one player out of that backfield (Logan) and replace it with someone new to the system and upset the chemistry? It seems to be so.

I don't think it's about diagnosing, but assignment. When you're not sure who's covering who, I suspect that might interfere with your confidence and ability to just relax out there and let the game come to you. You're all of a sudden just second-guessing everything.

 

[PP2]

Patricia has them all playing very different roles.

I have not seen this. Can you explain further?

 

[Betterthanmost]

So no matter who screws up the new guy is at fault?
McCourty said it was him on the hill TD but people still blame Gilmore.
The pass to funchess looked like Rowe to me since he was with him then left him. Not sure how you are blaming Gilmore for the Whitaker play.
If Gilmore doing the wrong thing is clearly the issue reference some plays and tell me what he should have done. He is the only new guy isn't cutting it as analysis for me.

I mean I don't think he was brought here to cover the tight end in this play? Pre snap also shows that he gave Rowe the nod that he had Funchess or probably 'miscommunicated' his intention to Rowe. A common theme we are seeing in the secondary.
What I see is that Gilmore is not yet a Patriot. He seems to not know what the defense is doing or has any attention to what his teammates are doing or even lineup. He is in a zone and lacks any general awareness of what is happening. Based on where Rowe was, who did he think had Funchess after he got that free release off the LOS? This is maddening.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, I think it's much more likely that Gilmore is having some issues recognizing his responsibilities and being on the same page than it is having an experienced, veteran secondary suddenly forget how to execute their assignments.

If you're right and it's the latter, we may be in more trouble than I initially thought.

Whatever it is it is. Speculating doesn't make it fact.
It's easy to pile on Gilmore but when he isn't the guy out of position or playing the wrong scheme it's wrong too.

 

[Ring 6]

I mean I don't think he was brought here to cover the tight end in this play?

That is an abysmally obtuse statement.

Pre snap also shows that he gave Rowe the nod that he had Funchess or probably 'miscommunicated' his intention to Rowe. A common theme we are seeing in the secondary.

So you know what the nod means?

What I see is that Gilmore is not yet a Patriot. He seems to not know what the defense is doing or has any attention to what his teammates are doing or even lineup. He is in a zone and lacks any general awareness of what is happening. Based on where Rowe was, who did he think had Funchess after he got that free release off the LOS? This is maddening.

There is no way of knowing what the call is. You cannot critique Gilmore unless you know what his assignment was.
Your are just guessing and that is wrong.
Btw wtf is McCourty doing on that play?

 

[TommyD4207]

So, is the suggestion that McCourty, (a 7-8 yr vet) is suddenly having communication problems

Yes, and it's been very obvious the last couple of weeks.

Not only is he not getting the communication across to the rest of the secondary (Be it Chung, Butler, Gilmore or Rowe, they've all been in situations having to make up for being in the wrong spot), but he's not getting in the right spots himself, and his reactions have been very late.

 

[Betterthanmost]

That is an abysmally obtuse statement.



So you know what the nod means?

Your are just guessing and that is wrong.
Btw wtf is McCourty doing on that play?

Ooucch, I failed to see McCourty. WTF indeed. wow.

 

[jimnance]

It's obviously more than just Gilmore. The entire secondary has sucked to this point. Can't put that all on one guy.
But he's been the worst. I also think that fat contract has everyone pointing at him.
They need time to work him in. I hope he's up to it. I hope his struggles in Buffalo are not a bad omen(ala kony ealy). Have to believe Gilmore and entire secondary,as well as the D, will improve big time.

 

[Ring 6]

Not meaning to sound like a smartass, but why would he change everything up to make them play "very different roles?" That seems like taking a very odd and complicated path to get from A to B.

McCourty excelled in his role, as did both Chung and Harmon. Butler was considered a top 10-15 CB and did a fine job in his role. It seems as though one could argue that all they needed to do was replace the reps from Logan Ryan's role.

Well every year is different and every opponent is different so it's not like you dust off last years game plans and change some names.

This year for example in game 1 (against an offense that the last 2 opponents resemble and would potentially have similar game plans) we played a scheme I have ne wr seen before as the BASE. 326 with 4 safeties.
Perhaps that was the scheme they worked on in camp and are still learning the new one.
But as far as roles changing the biggest thing is Chung being diminished. Now he is playing Harmon snaps meaning McCourty is playing chungs role and Harmon playing McCourtys. Can you play Harmon in chungs role instead? Maybe but would it help but maybe not.
So if your captain and main communicator is playing a new role and the second most experienced guy is on the bench perhaps that explains coverage and communication gaffes.
Very fixable but picking out the guy who makes the most money and blaming him is knee jerk.

I'm more concerned about doing a better job in run D and closing the holes in underneath coverage that fearing we will have a player not knowing what he is supposed to do a few plays every game.

 

[Ring 6]

It's obviously more than just Gilmore. The entire secondary has sucked to this point. Can't put that all on one guy.
But he's been the worst. I also think that fat contract has everyone pointing at him.
They need time to work him in. I hope he's up to it. I hope his struggles in Buffalo are not a bad omen(ala kony ealy). Have to believe Gilmore and entire secondary,as well as the D, will improve big time.

Gilmore was excellent in buffalo. Probowl caliber.

 

[Ring 6]

Except most of the personnel in the secondary is the same, except for Gilmore.

If you blame Gilmore, then you have to harshly criticize bb the gm for giving him a record patriots contract and stinking up the joint

I would argue mccourty, Harmon, butler, Chung, Gilmore have a history of playing well individually with pro bowl appearances from 3 of These players...so what gives?

Chung has been so bad he has been benched.
This makes McCourty move to a ss role and Harmon to fs. Major change.

 

[Ring 6]

Disagreed, because I don't think he's going to get it. I think he'll get his butt chewed for those lazy penalties, and he'll take it the wrong way and get his feelings hurt and sulk and not fix anything. He'll get his butt chewed for following McCaffrey and he'll feel butthurt and sulk. He's talented, but he's toxic.

You have absolutely nothing to back that up.