Cyrus Jones still struggling on returns

[Tunescribe]

nice words

The fact is that neither of the Jones brothers should have been on field in place of Butler, Ryan, Rowe or Harmon.

There are no situations where they would have been the stronger player.

Under that assumption, how do you explain Cyrus getting any snaps at all? "Situations" also can involve instances where his limited experience/skill set aren't necessarily a liability and the coaches want to give him live-action reps, when the front-line player he's subbing for needs a break, or when multiple DB packages are called for.

 

[mgteich]

Under that assumption, how do you explain Cyrus getting any snaps at all? "Situations" also can involve instances where his limited experience/skill set aren't necessarily a liability and the coaches want to give him live-action reps, when the front-line player he's subbing for needs a break, or when multiple DB packages are called for.

When multiple DB packages were/are needed, we have 3 corners and 3 safeties. When we need SEVEN defensive backs, CB#4 gets reps. And yes, if there are injuries or someone needs a rest, CB4 get some reps. Finally, when the game is relatively in hand, Belichick likes to get reps for subs. This often happens in the last series or two, or in the last couple of games of the season.

So, we agree that "situations" can mean that the coaches simply wanted an end of the bench guy to get some reps.

MY BOTTOM LINE
Absent injuries, we don't need to count on on CB4, CB5, CB6 or S4 for much of anything. They are only needed when we need SEVEN defensive backs on the field.

 

[supafly]

Those are only 3 corner positions. There are 2-3 more positions open this year.

Not meaning to sound like a smartass by any means, but that's what the whole conversation comes down to: the fact that Cyrus is battling Coleman and J.Jones for one of the backup spots.

However, since injuries are part of the game of football, I would expect the CB4 to get more reps this year. Unless, of course, you believe that the team will get through unscathed again for a 2nd year in a row, which I would personally assume to be unlikely.

I don't think they'd keep 6 CBs, so it would appear that only 2/3 would make it.

 

[supafly]

MY BOTTOM LINE
Absent injuries, we don't need to count on on CB4, CB5, CB6 or S4 for much of anything. They are only needed when we need SEVEN defensive backs on the field.

That's like saying that we don't need to count on anyone outside of the starting 5 OL, as the 6th OL will only be needed in max protect/GL/TE eligible plays.

You know how important the CB4 can be. Assuming another year of injury-free football may be faulty logic.

 

[mgteich]

That's like saying that we don't need to count on anyone outside of the starting 5 OL, as the 6th OL will only be needed in max protect/GL/TE eligible plays.

You know how important the CB4 can be. Assuming another year of injury-free football may be faulty logic.

I agree that it important to have a capable #4 CB. However, this board has been discussing the importance of the #5 CB and the #6 CB.

IMHO, we need an OK #4 and an STer who is an emergency #5 CB. Of course, this presumes three safeties, one of which is our dime back.

 

[mgteich]

Not meaning to sound like a smartass by any means, but that's what the whole conversation comes down to: the fact that Cyrus is battling Coleman and J.Jones for one of the backup spots.

However, since injuries are part of the game of football, I would expect the CB4 to get more reps this year. Unless, of course, you believe that the team will get through unscathed again for a 2nd year in a row, which I would personally assume to be unlikely.

I don't think they'd keep 6 CBs, so it would appear that only 2/3 would make it.

You think that we are morel likely to have injuries at CB because we didn't have any last year?

A study of gambling odds and probability seems in order.

 

[supafly]

You think that we are morel likely to have injuries at CB because we didn't have any last year?

A study of gambling odds and probability seems in order.

I think the team was lucky to get by without injuries at certain positions, and I'm not sure that I'd assume that only 3 real CBs will be needed for the second season in a row.

Maybe I'm just too pessimistic. Hope I'm wrong. We will see.

 

[supafly]

I agree that it important to have a capable #4 CB. However, this board has been discussing the importance of the #5 CB and the #6 CB.

With more of a focus on using a big nickel/3rd safety in many packages and the decision to keep Duron Harmon, I'm not buying into this theory that there will be a 6th CB.

I think roster spots are at a premium now more than most years. The talent/depth/competition is strong at most positions, and as usual, more ST only players will make it than people would assume (you know this better than anyone).

Taking it one step further, didn't we just have a summer last year where the competition at CB was insane and many hoped to sneak a player or two onto the PS for the future? Even with all of that talent, Belichick didn't keep 6 CBs. Anything is possible, but I'd find it to be unlikely.

 

[Deus Irae]

MY BOTTOM LINE
Absent injuries, we don't need to count on on CB4, CB5, CB6 or S4 for much of anything. They are only needed when we need SEVEN defensive backs on the field.

What an odd notion. Are you saying that it's not possible that a better CB4 might lead to some 4 CB/2S sets?

 

[mgteich]

I think the team was lucky to get by without injuries at certain positions, and I'm not sure that I'd assume that only 3 real CBs will be needed for the second season in a row.

Maybe I'm just too pessimistic. Hope I'm wrong. We will see.

I agree that we need a solid #4 CB. Ideally, this player can backup outside and inside.

If one player cannot do both, then 2 players must share this position, adding a roster position at corner. We discussed this. If one of the Jones boys can't be a solid backup inside, then we will need to keep Coleman. NESN agrees, but has us cutting Cyrus Jones (keeping 6 seems more likely).

I just lose interest when we talk about how critical it is to have a #5 who can start or be a major contributor on the defense. For me, the #5 CB position is a special teams position, much as the #5 LB position, and the #4 safety position.

 

[maineman209]

Yes of the guys I mentioned, only Wilhite wasn't a 2nd rounder so one could argue that he wouldn't be considered "highly drafted".

Not so much "highly regarded", either.

 

[The Boston Patriot]

Stone Hands Jones!


Maybe they need to get him a shrink to see what's going on in his alleged mind as well.

 

[TommyD4207]

I value JE11 too much to risk him back there.

He's also in the top-5 all-time in punt returns in NFL History. When he was still returning regularly (2014), he was actually number 1.

I get what you mean about risk, but the guy is an absolute weapon back there. It's not that dissimilar as to how the Cowboys would manage Deion Sanders back in the day.

 

[maineman209]

Situational rotation.

Seems to me that's exactly what they did. Mostly toward the end of the season. Certainly over Coleman. CJ got the same % of snaps as Harmon in wk-13 against the Rams. He took Rowe's spot wk-14 against the Ravens - not Coleman, not Jon Jones.

IDK. He was a rookie behind a lot of guys who were very good and who were working well together. The fact that the coaches didn't work him into that rotation more, especially early in the season doesn't seem like solid evidence for claiming, "If the coaches had confidence in him he would've played more."

 

[patfanken]

For Christ Sakes guys, it was ONE shorts and t-shirt practice. How do we know that CJones didn't catch every punt in the 3 practices the media DIDN'T get to see? We don't.

This is what I hate. People making judgements based on a VERY limited sample size. We see it happen every single year, and while we see it backfire so many, many times we still can;t seem to pass up the urge to rush to judgement. It's like we feel the need to make a "hot take" so just in case we happen to be right, we can say "I told you so, first".

Now I have no idea what kind of football player Cyrus Jones will become over the next 2 years. According to his measurables he should become a sold contributor IF it works out. But we all know that having measurables doesn't make you a good "football player" They are just indicators.

But either way, I certainly won't make ANY judgements about CJones until I see him in TC several times and at LEAST get a couple of preseason games to see him in action. Even then, they play so little full speed stuff in TC, its hard to predict what you'll get when the lights go on in September.

 

[maineman209]

With more of a focus on using a big nickel/3rd safety in many packages and the decision to keep Duron Harmon, I'm not buying into this theory that there will be a 6th CB.

I think roster spots are at a premium now more than most years. The talent/depth/competition is strong at most positions, and as usual, more ST only players will make it than people would assume (you know this better than anyone).

Taking it one step further, didn't we just have a summer last year where the competition at CB was insane and many hoped to sneak a player or two onto the PS for the future? Even with all of that talent, Belichick didn't keep 6 CBs. Anything is possible, but I'd find it to be unlikely.

BB "kept" 5: Butler, Ryan, Jones, Jones and Coleman. Then he acquired Rowe before wk-1. So, the Pats had 6 CBs all season, and 10 DBs overall - not including Ebner and King.

 

[Nunchucks]

Starters: Gilmore, Butler

Role starter: Rowe

Slot: C. Jones, J. Jones, Coleman

All three slot candidates play ST. If C. Jones can put return he is a lock. The other two are on coverage teams.

I think it is very likely they keep all 6.

We probably see fewer line backers as it is a deemphasized position with all the nickel.

 

[maineman209]

Starters: Gilmore, Butler

Role starter: Rowe

Slot: C. Jones, J. Jones, Coleman

All three slot candidates play ST. If C. Jones can put return he is a lock. The other two are on coverage teams.

I think it is very likely they keep all 6.

We probably see fewer line backers as it is a deemphasized position with all the nickel.

CJ and Coleman actually didn't play all that much on ST. Jon Jones played primarily on ST.

Jon Jones: 64 defensive snaps, 307 ST snaps (3rd most on the team)
Coleman: 227 defensive snaps, 65 ST snaps
Cy Jones: 147 defensive snaps, 51 ST snaps (about half on return teams)

 

[mgteich]

Starters: Gilmore, Butler

Role starter: Rowe

Slot: C. Jones, J. Jones, Coleman

All three slot candidates play ST. If C. Jones can put return he is a lock. The other two are on coverage teams.

I think it is very likely they keep all 6.

We probably see fewer line backers as it is a deemphasized position with all the nickel.

When 3 corners are on the field, one will be Rowe. He adds lots, lots more then the Jones boys or Coleman.

As was case last year, Rowe will come in and play outside. Last year, Logan moved into the slot/nickel. This year, Butler will move inside. The other alternative, last year and this when we have 5 db's on the field is bring in Harmon.

SLOT CORNER
I think that it very poor analysis to think that Rowe would sit while on your listed slot players would be in the game. The drop in quality is HUGE.

 

[Nunchucks]

When 3 corners are on the field, one will be Rowe. He adds lots, lots more then the Jones boys or Coleman.

As was case last year, Rowe will come in and play outside. Last year, Logan moved into the slot/nickel. This year, Butler will move inside. The other alternative, last year and this when we have 5 db's on the field is bring in Harmon.

SLOT CORNER
I think that it very poor analysis to think that Rowe would sit while on your listed slot players would be in the game. The drop in quality is HUGE.

I wasn't impressed with Rowe on the outside. I'd prefer to see Butler out there with a true slot corner, unless matchup dictate otherwise. But, well see how TC shakes out. Will be fun to watch.