Cyrus Jones still struggling on returns

[supafly]

There have been lots and lots worse that played a second year. I'll start Bequette. Other poster can add many more.

I agree that he'll at least be here for a second year, but I don't think it's nearly as clear cut as we've seen in other years due to the reasons that Deus listed.

Personally, I really don't know why we should care what round the player was selected in, aside from the hype and excitement. He's not a first rounder, so they cannot attempt to exercise any kind of 5th year option (if he turned things around). If someone like J.Jones or Coleman makes Cyrus expendable after only 1 year (again, probably doubtful), I honestly couldn't care less. I'd guess that you likely feel the same.

 

[PittPatriot]

I value JE11 too much to risk him back there.
One of the main reasons Cyrus excited us as a high draft pick was for the immediate help on special teams. Without that, even if he develops into a "good" or "dependable" CB, I would be disappointed if he didn't develop (or find) his punt return skills.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

It honestly sounds like Jones has a case of the yips!

Remember Cardinals pitcher Rick Ankiel? He would just somehow not be able to throw sometimes. I mean he wasn't even close! He went to psychologist after psychologist and they basically diagnosed him as having the "yips" and it was incurable. He eventually made it back to the majors as an outfielder. But it has happened to many an athlete. Basically you struggle at a normal function so much, that after a while you develop a psychological block that results in the Yips.

I hope Jones finds a way out of yip land. But it might be permanent.

 

[mgteich]

Yeah I thought about moving Butler to JAG, and I wouldn't really quibble with that. But he was a 2nd round pick that was with us for only 2 years, so calling him a bust isn't inaccurate either.

But let's not quibble. The point remains. Our high draft picks on defensive backs in last decade or so have mostly been wasted.

I think that folks expect much more from draft choices than is reasonable. We need to review the probabilities again. How many 2nd rounders are starters in 2 years? How many 3rd rounders? Was Logan a bust? Ryan? Chung? McCourty? And yeah, sometimes players are drafted too high, but still contribute. Butler and Wilson fall in that category, especially since they were able to play well for others. They clearly weren't terrible picks.

And, I do agree that as of now, C Jones and Richards were poor picks. But, we'll see. Sometimes you hit a home, sometimes a single, a sometimes you strike out. Striking out happens a lot, by all teams in the early rounds (Rounds 1 through 4).

 

[mgteich]

I value JE11 too much to risk him back there.
One of the main reasons Cyrus excited us as a high draft pick was for the immediate help on special teams. Without that, even if he develops into a "good" or "dependable" CB, I would be disappointed if he didn't develop (or find) his punt return skills.

I expect, given what you viewed as needs and value, Belichick would have done better drafting a punt returner instead of a corner.

Amendola is likely to be our #1 punt returner this year. Our #2 COULD be Edelman; that is Belichick's style. But the #2 also could be Lewis or Jones or someone else.

When we drafted, we were looking for someone who might start at corner in a couple of years, NOT a mediocre backup who might develop into a punt returner.

 

[Biffins]

Personally, I really don't know why we should care what round the player was selected in, aside from the hype and excitement.

So to you a first round not making the team is the same as a 6th or 7th rounder not making the team? I disagree. We spent more draft capital in the former case and hence it's a bigger deal and waste if he goes bust. From our 2014 draft, Dominique Easley not being present on the 2016 roster was a bigger deal than Jeremy Gallon or Jemea Thomas not making it.

 

[supafly]

So to you a first round not making the team is the same as a 6th or 7th rounder not making the team? I disagree. We spent more draft capital in the former case and hence it's a bigger deal and waste if he goes bust. From our 2014 draft, Dominique Easley not being present on the 2016 roster was a bigger deal than Jeremy Gallon or Jemea Thomas not making it.

Nope. I specifically stated that first rounders give you the option of having them for a reasonable 5th year contract.

After that, why would you want to pay more money when a cheaper player can do the job just as effectively? If you can find an UDFA who has the speed and talent (or heart and brains) of a second or third rounder, what's the difference?

If we are talking strictly about first rounders though, How many did we have on the field during the game winning drive of the SB? Just curious.

 

[TheFlyingWedge]

The line of highly drafted CB's who haven't worked out in the Belichik era include, among others: Terrence Wheatley, Darius Butler, Jonathan Wilhite, Ras-i Dowling. All four of these guys were given at least 2, and up to 3 years before getting jettisoned. Based just on this, I think Belichick would give him at least another season to catch on - he has proven to be surprisingly patient in situations like this.

 

[supafly]

The line of highly drafted CB's who haven't worked out in the Belichik era include, among others: Terrence Wheatley, Darius Butler, Jonathan Wilhite, Ras-i Dowling. All four of these guys were given at least 2, and up to 3 years before getting jettisoned. Based just on this, I think Belichick would give him at least another season to catch on - he has proven to be surprisingly patient in situations like this.

I wouldn't see many scenarios where Jones wouldn't be given a second season to try and iron out his mistakes/habits, but if there were ever a season where camp competition is at its highest and roster spots at a premium, it would likely be this one.

Still, as you point out, the likelihood of him getting cut is probably pretty low unless there's something going on behind the scenes that we're unaware of.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Nope. I specifically stated that first rounders give you the option of having them for a reasonable 5th year contract.

After that, why would you want to pay more money when a cheaper player can do the job just as effectively? If you can find an UDFA who has the speed and talent (or heart and brains) of a second or third rounder, what's the difference?

If we are talking strictly about first rounders though, How many did we have on the field during the game winning drive of the SB? Just curious.

Do you remember the vitriol for Chris Harper when he fumbled that punt return in Denver, which arguably cost us a Super Bowl appearance? The team cut him the next day, and our fans still have not forgiven him. On a side note, he was recently punished for his sins in the most gruesome way, joining the Jets.

Cyrus Jones fumbled FIVE times last season. He literally could not get out of the way of a rolling football. Yes, he does add the potential to be a serviceable cornerback, but he fumbled FIVE times. Fans are overly optimistic and quick to forgive players based on their higher draft status. Maybe Jones will turn it around, maybe he won't, but it's amazing how the perception is different with him. I spent almost three years pointing out the absurdity of many Patriots fans banking on Aaron Dobson to "breakout", due to his second round pedigree, which was contrary to all observable evidence. People were going as far as to say the coaching staff was saving him for the playoffs before unleashing his talents. Although Jones is only one year in, I recognize similarly insane optimism and a denial of reality.

 

[supafly]

Do you remember the vitriol for Chris Harper when he fumbled that punt return in Denver, which arguably cost us a Super Bowl appearance? The team cut him the next day, and our fans still have not forgiven him. On a side note, he was recently punished for his sins in the most gruesome way, joining the Jets.

Cyrus Jones fumbled FIVE times last season. He literally could not get out of the way of a rolling football. Yes, he does add the potential to be a serviceable cornerback, but he fumbled FIVE times. Fans are overly optimistic and quick to forgive players based on their higher draft status. Maybe Jones will turn it around, maybe he won't, but it's amazing how the perception is different with him. I spent almost three years pointing out the absurdity of many Patriots fans banking on Aaron Dobson to "breakout", due to his second round pedigree, which was contrary to all observable evidence. People were going as far as to say the coaching staff was saving him for the playoffs before unleashing his talents. Although Jones is only one year in, I recognize similarly insane optimism and a denial of reality.

I saw a fair amount of comments which suggested that Jones looked alright at CB, but I must have missed those moments. I think he'll likely get a second season here, but as you point out, it's nothing near the sure thing if used to be.

If he continues to struggle in both aspects, he could find himself on the bubble, especially with the kind of roster competition that we'll see this summer. Personally, I think he's safe at the moment, though.

 

[mgteich]

I wouldn't see many scenarios where Jones wouldn't be given a second season to try and iron out his mistakes/habits, but if there were ever a season where camp competition is at its highest and roster spots at a premium, it would likely be this one.

Still, as you point out, the likelihood of him getting cut is probably pretty low unless there's something going on behind the scenes that we're unaware of.

The idea that J Jones, Coleman, and the 5th safety are so valuable that Cyrus Jones may be cut is more than far fetched.

 

[supafly]

The idea that J Jones, Coleman, and the 5th safety are so valuable that Cyrus Jones may be cut is more than far fetched.

As I've said, I believe that he's safe, and that the likelihood of him getting cut is very low. That said, I do not believe that keeping a guy who has fumbled 5 times and continues to do so is as much of a given as it was in previous years, second rounder or not, particularly one who has (reportedly) pondered whether or not he wants to continue playing. Eventually, we may see a higher round player who does not make it to his 2nd season.

Also, there is better competition at safety than you're suggesting. McCourty, Chung, Harmon, Richards, Ebner, King, and Slater are 7 right there, and whether you wish to consider the majority STOP or not, they're going to count against the roster one way or another.

The CB group currently consists of Butler, Gilmore, Rowe, J.Jones and possibly even Coleman as the 5 who are ahead of Cyrus Jones. I'm not even counting any UDFA candidates. If Cyrus Jones continues to suck, he may not get the automatic gift of a second year quite as easily as we've seen in the past. At any rate, we both agree that he's likely to stay, but I'd probably have it as 75/25 or 80/20, where I'd normally have it close to 100 percent.

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

BB has consistently missed on DBs high in the draft. Besides WR, this is our weakest draft strength.

Here are all of BB's defensive back picks in Rd 1 and Rd 2 over last 17 years:

BUST = Ras-I-Downling (2010 Rd 2), Darius Butler (2009 Rd 2), Terrence Wheatley (2008 Rd 2), Tavon Wilson (2012 Rd 2), Jordan Richards (2015 Rd 2), and probably Cyrus Jones (2016 Rd 2)

JAG = Eugene Wilson (2003 Rd 2)

DECENT = Brandon Merriweather (2007 Rd 1), Pat Chung (2009 Rd 2)

ELITE = Devin McCourty (2010 Rd 1)

3/10 of these selections became worthy, serviceable starting-caliber players. And event still, Chung and McCourty had their struggles. McCourty had to be converted to safety, and Chung only really solidified his reputation after he left for Philly and returned for a second stint in NE.

Overall, that's a 30% success rate in drafting DBs....while low, I wouldn't be surprised if that was not too far from the average for all other teams in the NFL. The draft will always be a crap shoot.

 

[luuked]

So let me get this straight.

We are talking about fumbles on a rainy day (!), during OTAs (!!) when coincidentally the media was present (!!!) and base our opinion on his issues solely on that and the 3-4 (!!!!) Sundays last year where he had issues while ignoring that for based on reports from various reporters he was pretty good during practice throughout the year which is why BB put him continuously on the field despite those issues.

And to top it all off we also ignore that he was a pretty solid CB in those limited snaps on defense.

Ok then.. lets have this conversation after a week or so of training camp until then all of this is just an offseason garbage post.

Jesus.. I wonder how insane some of the takes in the last two years would have been if the majority of posters were not distracted with all the Deflategate non-sense.

 

[supafly]

So let me get this straight.

We are talking about fumbles on a rainy day (!), during OTAs (!!) when coincidentally the media was present (!!!) and base our opinion on his issues solely on that and the 3-4 (!!!!) Sundays last year where he had issues while ignoring that for based on reports from various reporters he was pretty good during practice throughout the year which is why BB put him continuously on the field despite those issues.

And to top it all off we also ignore that he was a pretty solid CB in those limited snaps on defense.

Ok then.. lets have this conversation after a week or so of training camp until then all of this is just an offseason garbage post.

Jesus.. I wonder how insane some of the takes in the last two years would have been if the majority of posters were not distracted with all the Deflategate non-sense.

I won't deny the fact that some are overreacting, but let's tell the story as it really happened:

Jones fumbled regularly during training camp and got beat on a pretty consistent basis when Belichick tried making him a slot CB starter and lead PR on day one of camp. There are articles reminding us as such. He fell to a healthy scratch at times last year (6 games + postseason) was the CB4 or CB5 even when he was active, couldn't get out of the way of the ball to save himself, ended up with 5 fumbles on the year, and saw a total of 14% of the defensive snaps on the year--the majority coming in the BAL game due to injuries, where the defense gave up 23 points. When he did return 11 punts, he ended up with an average of a little over 4 yards per attempt (4.3 yds). I think it's safe to say that he had a very poor rookie outing. There's no question or argument.

So, for him to pick up right where he left off in OTAs is probably worth noting, as is the fact that we added another CB to the mix (Gilmore) which will push Jones down even further on the depth chart with Butler and Rowe ahead of him. At best, he's getting limited reps as the CB4, and right now both J.Jones and Coleman have seen reps over him too, most likely due to his continued mistakes. It's certainly worth keeping an eye on, that's for sure. No one should be giving up on him, of course, but it's understandable why fans are going to be concerned.

 

[luuked]

I won't deny the fact that some are overreacting, but let's tell the story as it really happened:

Jones fumbled regularly during training camp and got beat on a pretty consistent basis when Belichick tried making him a slot CB starter and lead PR on day one of camp. There are articles reminding us as such. He fell to a healthy scratch at times last year (6 games + postseason) was the CB4 or CB5 even when he was active, couldn't get out of the way of the ball to save himself, ended up with 5 fumbles on the year, and saw a total of 14% of the defensive snaps on the year--the majority coming in the BAL game due to injuries, where the defense gave up 23 points. When he did return 11 punts, he ended up with an average of a little over 4 yards per attempt (4.3 yds). I think it's safe to say that he had a very poor rookie outing. There's no question or argument.

So, for him to pick up right where he left off in OTAs is probably worth noting, as is the fact that we added another CB to the mix (Gilmore) which will push Jones down even further on the depth chart with Butler and Rowe ahead of him. At best, he's getting limited reps as the CB4, and right now both J.Jones and Coleman have seen reps over him too, most likely due to his continued mistakes. It's certainly worth keeping an eye on, that's for sure. No one should be giving up on him, of course, but it's understandable why fans are going to be concerned.

The thing that you and a lot of others are missing is that he was reportedly doing fine with punt returns in practice. Do you seriously think BB would trot him out for the majority of the season if he wouldn't give him a reason to do so in practice every day ? Our window into the team is exclusively games on Sundays and the window of the press is just a short period at the start or end of practice. Nobody has the full picture except the coaching staff and the players. So him repeatedly getting the punt returner job despite the regular ****ups is telling.

Also it is not realistic to expect a rookie CB to make the jump to be a starter immediately. If you look at our secondary in the past 5 years every drafted DB has been brought along slowly.

Finally, his position on the CB depth chart is not really affected by Gilmore because they are players with different strengths (inside vs. outside corner). Similarly, Rowe will never be a direct competitor for him because they will be used completely differently. Ironically, if Cyrus can put it all together mentally it might still send Rowe onto the bench because then we can actually play with Gilmore/Butler/Jones. In any way, this has been talked ad nauseaum already and until we have a week of TC in there is not much to talk about.

 

[mgteich]

I won't deny the fact that some are overreacting, but let's tell the story as it really happened:

Jones fumbled regularly during training camp and got beat on a pretty consistent basis when Belichick tried making him a slot CB starter and lead PR on day one of camp. There are articles reminding us as such. He fell to a healthy scratch at times last year (6 games + postseason) was the CB4 or CB5 even when he was active, couldn't get out of the way of the ball to save himself, ended up with 5 fumbles on the year, and saw a total of 14% of the defensive snaps on the year--the majority coming in the BAL game due to injuries, where the defense gave up 23 points. When he did return 11 punts, he ended up with an average of a little over 4 yards per attempt (4.3 yds). I think it's safe to say that he had a very poor rookie outing. There's no question or argument.

So, for him to pick up right where he left off in OTAs is probably worth noting, as is the fact that we added another CB to the mix (Gilmore) which will push Jones down even further on the depth chart with Butler and Rowe ahead of him. At best, he's getting limited reps as the CB4, and right now both J.Jones and Coleman have seen reps over him too, most likely due to his continued mistakes. It's certainly worth keeping an eye on, that's for sure. No one should be giving up on him, of course, but it's understandable why fans are going to be concerned.

Gilmore replacing Ryan doesn't affect where C Jones is on the depth chart.

I agree that Coleman is ahead of C Jones. I expect that J Jones is about even.

As an aside, absent injuries, CB4 gets few reps with Harmon as the nickel or dime back. Gilmore, Butler, Rowe, McCourty, Chung, and Harmon is plenty unless there are 7 CB's on the field.

 

[TennisBallHead]

BUST.

Cut him and move on.

 

[ALP]

i cant believe we have a 3 pg thread on if a 2nd year player, drafted in the 2nd round is going to make the roster...

100% he is making the roster, if anyone wants to bet otherwise, put your money where your mouth is, otherwise stop wasting time and posting in this thread and find another to "contribute"