The other trade chip no one wants to talk about....Macolm Butler, how much is he worth in a trade?

[Ivan]

He's worth a 1, but I want him back d%#*!@t!!!

With Cooks already in tow I doubt you will find anyone who would disagree. Sign Hightower and add some pass rushing ability and they are all set for 2017. ( And add help at RB in the draft)

 

[Brady6]

2017 tender at $3.9M
2018 franchise at $15M

Result - top 10 CB for 2 years at $9.5M per.

He will be 29 after that and if the Patriots were not going to pay a 29 year old Revis big money I doubt they will pay Butler.

Butler has made around $2M in his career he is not holding out or being disgruntle. He could still be flipping cheese burgers if not for this team giving him a shot.

 

[patfanken]

UNLESS he's notified BB he intends to sit out the year, keep him at the tender rate & let him walk next year if we can't afford the big cap $ at CB.

That's what I thought at first, Ivan, but the way the cap is rising who knows. If the cap goes up another 10MM next season, there's your money right there for Butler (or close to it).

BTW- I felt the best exit strategy for Butler, if you think we can't keep both long term, would be to keep him this year and POSSIBLY next on a franchise, and draft a CB early and develop him for a season or two. Even the best rookie CB's struggle their rookie year's. Unfortunately, at the moment, we don't have any picks in the first TWO rounds and a big need at DE

The fact is, now days' you can't have too many CB's. You may have only 2 guys who officially start, but usually as many as 4 CB's get significant snaps each game.

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

2017 tender at $3.9M
2018 franchise at $15M

Result - top 10 CB for 2 years at $9.5M per.

Which is what the Patriots wanted to give him in the first place.... that and more

 

[borg]

I think most of us are pretty surprised how unproductive these extension talks have been...

Surprised?
Butler's agent asked NE to relinquish the team's RFA control over Butler. You may be the only one surprised that NE didn't cave to the agent's wishes.
And who is surprised NE would require Butler's 2017 compensation to be part of any extension....besides his agent?
Who is surprised that NE would let their FAs and RFAs hit the open market considering that has been their modus operendi in recent years?

or at least, the reported tone of them.

Tone?
Any perceived "tone" has been media generated with no supporting quotes from actual participants

I mean, who could blame Butler for being a little upset. He's been underpaid for two seasons

Underpaid?
Has NE been paying Butler less money than his contract stipulates...a contract both parties agreed to and signed?

The "insult" of seeing someone outside the team getting a contract he feels he might deserve

Butler "deserves" the monetary value stipulated by his RFA status....an amount negotiated by his NFLPA.
The "someone outside the team" who just signed with NE had just adequately completed the terms of his first contract in full, which allowed him to become an UFA. Butler's agent believes his client should not be bound by negotiated league contract rules.
Believing that Gilmore's contract is Butler's "deserved" contract fails to account for the reduced 2017 $$$ that NE would include in any extension. In other words, Gilmore's contract in no way would be similar to a future Butler contract.

And to bypass reality for a moment and instead speculate.....I speculate NE would have have been thrilled to pay Butler $13 mill / year starting in 2018 but he and his agent likely believe this 2 time SB champ is a $15-$16 mill / year player beginning this calendar year.
Therefore I speculate Butler and his agent are not at all traumatized by Gilmore's signing and instead see it as an opportunity to accelerate his big pay day by a year.

 

[Ivan]

That's what I thought at first, Ivan, but the way the cap is rising who knows. If the cap goes up another 10MM next season, there's your money right there for Butler (or close to it).

BTW- I felt the best exit strategy for Butler, if you think we can't keep both long term, would be to keep him this year and POSSIBLY next on a franchise, and draft a CB early and develop him for a season or two. Even the best rookie CB's struggle their rookie year's. Unfortunately, at the moment, we don't have any picks in the first TWO rounds and a big need at DE

The fact is, now days' you can't have too many CB's. You may have only 2 guys who officially start, but usually as many as 4 CB's get significant snaps each game.

You have to love this secondary right now. As it stands:

CB:

M. Butler
S. Gilmore
E. Rowe
J. Jones
C. Jones
E. Coleman

SS:
P. Chung
J. Richards
N. Ebner

FS:
D. McCourty
D. Harmon

If nothing changes they start the season with a top two secondary, Denver is the only team that is as strong as a unit.

 

[BUSTAMOVE]

There are about 6 positions on the field worth spending a lot of money on by default. They are:
QB
LT
RT
CB1
CB2
FS

This is because they never come off the field and are very in demand, due to being important positions that are hard to fill.

On offense last year, the only players who played more than 90% of snaps were the offensive linemen. Obviously Brady would also be in that group if he wasn't suspended 4 games.

Edelman (WR1) and Bennett (TE1) played 78% of snaps.

On defense, only McCourty, Butler, and Chung played over 90% of snaps. Ryan was at 86%, as I believe he was "benched" a couple games as the Pats tried out Rowe, Coleman, and the Joneses to find their best lineup.

Hightower was the front 7 player with the most snaps, 68%.

IF the Patriots can sign Butler for Gilmore money long-term, they will do it, regardless of having already paid McCourty and Gilmore. Nobody else they could sign is better than Butler, at a more important position than CB, who will project to play more snaps.

I hope you are right. I love the kid. Great attitude and buys into the Patriots Way. I would agree with your theory if he was the only one to get paid the big money at that position. BB does not usually invest that big a capitol at one position. It will eventually weaken what you can pay at other positions. Possible if they get McCourtys replacement cheaper that he gets traded next year and give Butler his money. Not sure of what the cap hit would be if we did that?. I like McCourty but would rather have Butler

 

[kennyb]

They need to get rid of him asap.

Unfortunately no one is giving up a first unless they can sign him to a reasonable deal. Which is what NE tried and fail to do. So good luck.

And the 2 years for a reasonable 21m is dumb. After one year, it's 16m or whatever the tag is for one, the previous year is history. Plus i thought we were going to tag JG "played 6 quarters but worth 5 #1s as he's hof bound". Can't tag them both.

 

[Ivan]

They need to get rid of him asap.

Unfortunately no one is giving up a first unless they can sign him to a reasonable deal. Which is what NE tried and fail to do. So good luck.

And the 2 years for a reasonable 21m is dumb. After one year, it's 16m or whatever the tag is for one, the previous year is history. Plus i thought we were going to tag JG "played 6 quarters but worth 5 #1s as he's hof bound". Can't tag them both.

10 million a season for Butler is great value.

Tell us the team that rejected Butler for a first, you seem to be the only person aware of this rejection?

 

[patfanken]

You have to love this secondary right now. As it stands:

CB:

M. Butler
S. Gilmore
E. Rowe
J. Jones
C. Jones
E. Coleman

SS:
P. Chung
J. Richards
N. Ebner

FS:
D. McCourty
D. Harmon

If nothing changes they start the season with a top two secondary, Denver is the only team that is as strong as a unit.

This team might even be deeper in overall talent than Denver, especially if Cyrus' play starts to match is physical talents. There is no reason to think they won't. With Gilmore, Butler, and Butler a head of him, he can develop in a relatively pressure free enviroment. You can't have too many good CB these days.

Think about it. There were years when Rowe and CJones would have been our starters....and we would have been happy to have them.

 

[dafoe2016]

He's an restricted free agent. That means that he has to give up a little cash to get a deal done right now. Or he can wait until next year for a big payday. If his agent was an experienced agent (he's not) he would know this.

Granted, I'm not privy to the information Bill has, None of us.They overpaid for Gilmore. But I see absolutely no reason we can't spend 20 plus million on two corners. It is one of the most important skill positions on the field. Look at what Denver did with two good corners, a safety and a couple of pass rushers. They won a title with a terrible offense. It's a passing league. Defense still wins titles.

Unless there is something ridiculous going on behind the scenes or Butler's salary demands are outrageous I see no reason we should even think about dumping him.

In fact, the whole use them and throw them away method of team building is getting tiresome. It's starting to feel a little gross.

 

[manxman2601]

I dont know how reliable they are so fwiw:

 

[Simpelton]

That must have been one huge playoff window because it has been closing for ten years.

The window will last as long as brady's peak years do. Brady's the freak of nature holding the window open. That's going to stop sometime in the next 3 years, at least to the point that we will stop being a legendary perennial contender

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

 

[Ivan]

The window will last as long as brady's peak years do. Brady's the freak of nature holding the window open. That's going to stop sometime in the next 3 years, at least to the point that we will stop being a legendary perennial contender

Of course it will, just like it did when all of you insisted it would in 2014. Never mind that he has been getting better and went 15-1 with only two interceptions, led the greatest comeback in NFL history and won yet another Super Bowl and another Super Bowl MVP. But yes, you guys are right, and had Belichick not been so smitten he would have traded Brady in 2014 and spared us the two Lombardi's Brady led them to.

 

[kennyb]

10 million a season for Butler is great value.

Tell us the team that rejected Butler for a first, you seem to be the only person aware of this rejection?

10m a season is an illogical way to look at it. Logic is not in you. It's 4m for one and an additional at 16m. 16m is not value.

No evisenxe any team has offerred anything for him. You show me the team that has offerred a first for him. Since you seem to be the only one aware of it.

 

[Ivan]

10m a season is an illogical way to look at it. Logic is not in you. It's 4m for one and an additional at 16m. 16m is not value.

No evisenxe any team has offerred anything for him. You show me the team that has offerred a first for him. Since you seem to be the only one aware of it.

Funny, because according to Curran two years sixteen million was the exact reason Belichick wouldn't budge on Welker deal after he signed the ten million dollar franchise tag. They offered two for sixteen, Welker signed the tag for almost ten million, and Belichick made sure they didn't go a penny beyond that when they offered six million the following season. Just because you aren't capable of seeing things in terms of a bigger picture it doesn't mean Belichick can't, The Patriots may well look at this in terms of spreading the cost of the tags out over two seasons as opposed to signing him to a more costly extension. Why pay 24-28 million over two when they can get him for 21?

 

[zipster9]

Surprised?
Butler's agent asked NE to relinquish the team's RFA control over Butler. You may be the only one surprised that NE didn't cave to the agent's wishes.
And who is surprised NE would require Butler's 2017 compensation to be part of any extension....besides his agent?
Who is surprised that NE would let their FAs and RFAs hit the open market considering that has been their modus operendi in recent years?



Tone?
Any perceived "tone" has been media generated with no supporting quotes from actual participants



Underpaid?
Has NE been paying Butler less money than his contract stipulates...a contract both parties agreed to and signed?



Butler "deserves" the monetary value stipulated by his RFA status....an amount negotiated by his NFLPA.
The "someone outside the team" who just signed with NE had just adequately completed the terms of his first contract in full, which allowed him to become an UFA. Butler's agent believes his client should not be bound by negotiated league contract rules.
Believing that Gilmore's contract is Butler's "deserved" contract fails to account for the reduced 2017 $$$ that NE would include in any extension. In other words, Gilmore's contract in no way would be similar to a future Butler contract.

And to bypass reality for a moment and instead speculate.....I speculate NE would have have been thrilled to pay Butler $13 mill / year starting in 2018 but he and his agent likely believe this 2 time SB champ is a $15-$16 mill / year player beginning this calendar year.
Therefore I speculate Butler and his agent are not at all traumatized by Gilmore's signing and instead see it as an opportunity to accelerate his big pay day by a year.

His agent is a newbie and a dufus. Malcolm should just hire Yee.

 

[Simpelton]

Of course it will, just like it did when all of you insisted it would in 2014. Never mind that he has been getting better and went 15-1 with only two interceptions, led the greatest comeback in NFL history and won yet another Super Bowl and another Super Bowl MVP. But yes, you guys are right, and had Belichick not been so smitten he would have traded Brady in 2014 and spared us the two Lombardi's Brady led them to.

The fact that Brady is a freak of nature is well established and does not change the fact that our fortunes shrink significantly whenever he goes. Loading up to make hay while the sun shins does mean gambling on the next 2 seasons being far more significant than the following 3. Swapping Butler out for a draft pick (what would you spend it on, a shutdown CB?) is an exercise in going against the best interest of the franchise right now, I can't see BB doing this.

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

Butler's being traded folks