Pats D still Number 2 in AFC points against

[Ring 6]

How much did you get to see Jim with the Patriots and Raiders? He was always a winner; Oakland had talent but was going nowhere fast before he played.

I did also see all of Elway's career; he was able to make as many plays with his feet as he did with his arm. Nothing personal; no, I would never start him or Manning over Plunkett, Montana, Staubach, Starr.

It's far less of a criticism than it is an acknowledgement of the others' ability to overcome adversity and lead teams to victory under the most hostile circumstances.

Dude plunkett doesn't even belong in the conversation.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

I always want to see them run more, especially when they have double digit leads late in games. I understand why they don't but I still don't like it.

Since this thread was started the Pats have moved up in points allowed from 2nd in the AFC to 2nd in the NYFL behind only Seattle. How can that defense be called average?

They're just your ordinary, average, run-of-the-mill Super Bowl Championship defense...See you in Houston

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Dude plunkett doesn't even belong in the conversation.

Is it stats, longevity or you just didn't like him? He beat Marino. Were the Raiders THAT much better than the Niners? Remember, they were lousy until Pastorini got hurt.

 

[Ring 6]

Is it stats, longevity or you just didn't like him? He beat Marino. Were the Raiders THAT much better than the Niners? Remember, they were lousy until Pastorini got hurt.

He just wasn't good. He had 2 nice years. When did he beat Montana?

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

He just wasn't good. He had 2 nice years. When did he beat Montana?

Week 1 in '82, 23-17 over the Niners at Candlestick, on the way to an 8-1 record in the strike year. He did win two Super Bowls in four seasons, winning a lot of tough games along the way. When he wasn't running for his life, he beat several top teams right here with the Patriots, mostly all by himself. Don't think Stanford has won any Rose Bowls since Jim, either.

 

[Ring 6]

Week 1 in '82, 23-17 over the Niners at Candlestick, on the way to an 8-1 record in the strike year. He did win two Super Bowls in four seasons, winning a lot of tough games along the way. When he wasn't running for his life, he beat several top teams right here with the Patriots, mostly all by himself. Don't think Stanford has won any Rose Bowls since Jim, either.

His record here and in SF was poor. He was a huge bust when SF cut him and he latched in in Oakland. Had a couple of nice seasons. not in the class of the others mentioned here.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

His record here and in SF was poor. He was a huge bust when SF cut him and he latched in in Oakland. Had a couple of nice seasons. not in the class of the others mentioned here.

Jim was very seriously hurt (shoulder separation) here, and SF could have made a good case that they got damaged goods from us. His effort, however, never waned and he played through pain that frankly most players of any era did not. His recovery and rehabilitation over more than two seasons after he joined the Raiders was critical to his later success. His career statistics are unimpressive, and not indicative whatsoever of his leadership, ability and effectiveness as a winner. Among Super Bowl MVP's, Plunkett was far more instrumental to his team's success than more than half of them. Plunkett is far and away more deserving of being in the Pro Football Hall of Fame than many others who are, including Stabler. The many wins he led the Patriots to, against top teams, were far more significant than the losses and his injuries. The number of quarterbacks whom I would choose over him start a game I had to win is less than ten.

 

[jimnance]

[QUOTE="Actual Pats Fan, post: The number of quarterbacks whom I would choose over him start a game I had to win is less than ten.[/QUOTE]

Cmon man, that's just insanity. I watched Plunkett's entire career. He was a good, tough qb overall, a good leader. But what you said is ridiculous. I could rattle off 15 qbs off the top of my head w/o even thinking about it who were better than Jim and who I'd take over him. Man, you are really stuck in the past.

 

[Ring 6]

Jim was very seriously hurt (shoulder separation) here, and SF could have made a good case that they got damaged goods from us. His effort, however, never waned and he played through pain that frankly most players of any era did not. His recovery and rehabilitation over more than two seasons after he joined the Raiders was critical to his later success. His career statistics are unimpressive, and not indicative whatsoever of his leadership, ability and effectiveness as a winner. Among Super Bowl MVP's, Plunkett was far more instrumental to his team's success than more than half of them. Plunkett is far and away more deserving of being in the Pro Football Hall of Fame than many others who are, including Stabler. The many wins he led the Patriots to, against top teams, were far more significant than the losses and his injuries. The number of quarterbacks whom I would choose over him start a game I had to win is less than ten.

Not knocking the guy but I'm not sure where you get that he won big games here. He was 23-38

In any event not worth arguing about will just agree to disagree.
My list would have closer to 100 on it than 10.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Not knocking the guy but I'm not sure where you get that he won big games here. He was 23-38

In any event not worth arguing about will just agree to disagree.
My list would have closer to 100 on it than 10.

Okay, let's drop it, and you have lots of people on your side, but to conclude:

First, Daryle Lamonica should be in the HOF. Second, this case may be similar to Schilling's for baseball, except that BBWAA will keep Curt out due to "character", post-career issues, whatever. Tom "Satch" Sanders is deservedly in for basketball, despite the lack of flashy stats. No popular stats seem to back up Jim's candidacy, with the possible exception of total QBR, which, if it's calculated correspondingly to past eras, could put him at or near the top. I found ten Pats wins Jim QB'd that were against better teams, and yes it was over a five-year stretch full of injuries and growing pains ('71-'75). After winning every possible award his senior year, he was the AFC Rookie of the Year here. Finally, I believe most people who saw him play will agree that it is absolutely preposterous to put him in a category with Johnson, Dilfer, Woodley etc. I would not start Elway, Bledsoe or Manning ahead of Plunkett. That is, not if I wanted to win the game.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

[QUOTE="Actual Pats Fan, post: The number of quarterbacks whom I would choose over him start a game I had to win is less than ten.

Cmon man, that's just insanity. I watched Plunkett's entire career. He was a good, tough qb overall, a good leader. But what you said is ridiculous. I could rattle off 15 qbs off the top of my head w/o even thinking about it who were better than Jim and who I'd take over him. Man, you are really stuck in the past.[/QUOTE]
I can think of a few, but not fifteen. Past/present is meaningless. Difference of opinion.

 

[Ring 6]

Another strong game by the defense. I am very excited about what this defense is becoming.

 

[PatriotsPimp136]

Another strong game by the defense. I am very excited about what this defense is becoming.

Can we hold the ravens under 28 next week?

 

[Ring 6]

Cmon man, that's just insanity. I watched Plunkett's entire career. He was a good, tough qb overall, a good leader. But what you said is ridiculous. I could rattle off 15 qbs off the top of my head w/o even thinking about it who were better than Jim and who I'd take over him. Man, you are really stuck in the past.

I can think of a few, but not fifteen. Past/present is meaningless. Difference of opinion.[/QUOTE]
Off the top of my head
Brady
Bledsoe
Namath
Griese
Marino
Kelly
Bradshaw
Roethlisberger
Ken Anderson
esiason
Unitas
Manning
McNair
Stabler
Elway
Rivers
Fouts
Dawson
Simms
Manning
Theisman
Jurgensen
Mcnab
Staubach
Aikman
Favre
Starr
Rodgers
Tarkenton
Moon
Ryan
Brees
Newton
Montana
Brodie
Young
Warner
Wilson
Baugh
Graham

That's 40 to start with.

 

[Ring 6]

Can we hold the ravens under 28 next week?

Why would you possibly think they could score that many.
Over/under should be about 17.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Why would you possibly think they could score that many.
Over/under should be about 17.

Because Baltimore is peaking at the right time and forcing turnovers,

 

[Ring 6]

Because Baltimore is peaking at the right time and forcing turnovers,

Today was the first time they scored over 28 points. Doubt they do it against a top 3 scoring defense.

 

[neuronet]

Today was the first time they scored over 28 points. Doubt they do it against a top 3 scoring defense.

But haven't you heard...our defense sucks. just look at the DOABSCRAP score.

 

[mosslost]

Is it stats, longevity or you just didn't like him? He beat Marino. Were the Raiders THAT much better than the Niners? Remember, they were lousy until Pastorini got hurt.

You are talking about GOAT stuff and putting Plunkett in the conversation. Shows you should not be allowed anywhere near the GOAT topic.

 

[mosslost]

Week 1 in '82, 23-17 over the Niners at Candlestick, on the way to an 8-1 record in the strike year. He did win two Super Bowls in four seasons, winning a lot of tough games along the way. When he wasn't running for his life, he beat several top teams right here with the Patriots, mostly all by himself. Don't think Stanford has won any Rose Bowls since Jim, either.

he sucks