The OL Draft: Reading Tea Leaves

[Big-T]

I wouldn't be surprised if we got a typical Belichick out of left field type of move with the OL and something like Cannon starts at RT and Vollmer moves to LG happens.

A huge OL of: Solder-Vollmer-Stork-Fleming-Cannon and just steam roll over teams.

The more "normal" route would be slotting Fleming in at LG and Wendell keeps his spot at RG to start the season while one of Mason or Jackson is ready to step in and replace him.

I could see Mason being used as a FB at times to make use of his dominant run blocking for his first season in the league.

 

[mayoclinic]

I thought he was 300?

Mason weighed in at 310# at the Senior Bowl, 304# at the Combine. For comparison, La'el Collins was 305# at the Combine, TJ Clemmings 307#, Ali Marpet 307#. The major difference is in height (Mason 6' 1 3/4", vs. 6' 3 7/8" for Marpet and 6' 4 1/2" for Clemmings and Collins), not in weight. He's not a behemoth like Donovan Smith or Jeremiah Poutasi, but I wouldn't exactly consider him "small", just short.

 

[rochrist]

Mason weighed in at 310# at the Senior Bowl, 304# at the Combine. For comparison, La'el Collins was 305# at the Combine, TJ Clemmings 307#, Ali Marpet 307#. The major difference is in height (Mason 6' 1 3/4", vs. 6' 3 7/8" for Marpet and 6' 4 1/2" for Clemmings and Collins), not in weight. He's not a behemoth like Donovan Smith or Jeremiah Poutasi, but I wouldn't exactly consider him "small", just short.

Heh. No, not small. On the other hand, Wendell is 300 and is often cited as being small for the position.

 

[mayoclinic]

Heh. No, not small. On the other hand, Wendell is 300 and is often cited as being small for the position.

Wendell was 6'2 but only 286# when he came out of Fresno St. in 2008, so he was small for the position. He's currently listed at 300#, but that's the highest I've ever seen him listed. He was listed in the 290's a few years ago.

 

[patchick]

Mason weighed in at 310# at the Senior Bowl, 304# at the Combine. For comparison, La'el Collins was 305# at the Combine, TJ Clemmings 307#, Ali Marpet 307#. The major difference is in height (Mason 6' 1 3/4", vs. 6' 3 7/8" for Marpet and 6' 4 1/2" for Clemmings and Collins), not in weight. He's not a behemoth like Donovan Smith or Jeremiah Poutasi, but I wouldn't exactly consider him "small", just short.

Mayo, Mason is 6'1.5" with small hands and a wingspan of just 77'. I love the player and the pick, but I don't think the fact that Ryan Wendell weighs less than him is enough to escape the conclusion that he's small.

Continuing the Collins comparison, they're the same weight but with Collins standing 6'4.5" with big hands and an 82-inch wingspan, part of the size calculation is expecting he can add weight in the NFL. Mason is presumably maxed out.

 

[Off The Grid]

I'm absolutely ecstatic that we got Mason. Unfortunately, both he and Stork profile far better as Centers than as Guards, primarily because of the WingSpan issue that HatCheck Girl points out.

 

[mayoclinic]

Mayo, Mason is 6'1.5" with small hands and a wingspan of just 77'. I love the player and the pick, but I don't think the fact that Ryan Wendell weighs less than him is enough to escape the conclusion that he's small.

Continuing the Collins comparison, they're the same weight but with Collins standing 6'4.5" with big hands and an 82-inch wingspan, part of the size calculation is expecting he can add weight in the NFL. Mason is presumably maxed out.

I think that "small" is not a very clear term. Mason is short, definitely (CBS Sports lists him as 6' 1 7/8", but that's quibbling; he's under 6'2"). He has short arms (31 1/8" at the Senior Bowl weigh in) and a limited wingspan (77 1/2" at the Senior Bowl). But does that make him "small"? He's not a lightweight like Wendell or Rich Ohrnberger, and he has more than enough heft and core strength to stand up to big DTs. Tre Jackson has 32 1/8" arms and a 79 1/4" wingspan. Is he small? What about Zach Martin (305#, 32 1/4" arms, 76 7/8" wing span according to his 2014 Senior Bowl weigh ins - less wingspan than Mason)? Kyle Long had 32 1/8" arms and a 79 1/8" wingspan despite being 6'6"; both Martin and Long made the Pro Bowl as rookie guards. What is your cutoff if you are using arm length and wingspan as a criteria for smallness?

What I think is more interesting is that in the past 13 months the Pats have spent 3 4th round picks on guys who are purely interior lineman: Bryan Stork at #105 in 2014 (32 1/4" arms per the Combine but 31" at his Senior Bowl weigh in, 77" wingspan), Tre Jackson at #111 in 2015, and Shaq Mason at #131 in 2015. In the other 14 drafts under BB, the only time I can recall them spending that high a draft pick on a pure interior player is Rich Ohrnberger at #123 in 2009. They passed up guys with more positional versatility such as TJ Clemmings (obviously there were injury concerns) and Jamil Douglas, both of whom fit their previous tackle -> guard conversion formula. And with a huge question mark at LG, they took 2 guys who played exclusively at RG in college.

I'm absolutely ecstatic that we got Mason. Unfortunately, both he and Stork profile far better as Centers than as Guards, primarily because of the WingSpan issue that HatCheck Girl points out.

How critical do you think wingspan is to playing guard? As mentioned above, Zach Martin had a wingspan of 76 7/8" measured at the 2014 Senior Bowl. He seems to have done ok. 32" arms and a 79" wingspan seem more than adequate to play guard in the NFL; 31+" arms and a 77" wingspan seems a bit low, but not out of the question.

 

[Off The Grid]

I think that "small" is not a very clear term. Mason is short, definitely (CBS Sports lists him as 6' 1 7/8", but that's quibbling; he's under 6'2"). He has short arms (31 1/8" at the Senior Bowl weigh in) and a limited wingspan (77 1/2" at the Senior Bowl). But does that make him "small"? He's not a lightweight like Wendell or Rich Ohrnberger, and he has more than enough heft and core strength to stand up to big DTs. Tre Jackson has 32 1/8" arms and a 79 1/4" wingspan. Is he small? What about Zach Martin (305#, 32 1/4" arms, 76 7/8" wing span according to his 2014 Senior Bowl weigh ins - less wingspan than Mason)? Kyle Long had 32 1/8" arms and a 79 1/8" wingspan despite being 6'6"; both Martin and Long made the Pro Bowl as rookie guards. What is your cutoff if you are using arm length and wingspan as a criteria for smallness?

What I think is more interesting is that in the past 13 months the Pats have spent 3 4th round picks on guys who are purely interior lineman: Bryan Stork at #105 in 2014 (32 1/4" arms per the Combine but 31" at his Senior Bowl weigh in, 77" wingspan), Tre Jackson at #111 in 2015, and Shaq Mason at #131 in 2015. In the other 14 drafts under BB, the only time I can recall them spending that high a draft pick on a pure interior player is Rich Ohrnberger at #123 in 2009. They passed up guys with more positional versatility such as TJ Clemmings (obviously there were injury concerns) and Jamil Douglas, both of whom fit their previous tackle > guard conversion formula. And with a huge question mark at LG, they took 2 guys who played exclusively at RG in college.


How critical do you think wingspan is to playing guard? As mentioned above, Zach Martin had a wingspan of 76 7/8" measured at the 2014 Senior Bowl. He seems to have done ok. 32" arms and a 79" wingspan seem more than adequate to play guard in the NFL; 31+" arms and a 77" wingspan seems a bit low, but not out of the question.

Certainly not out of the Question. Far more Optimal for Center, is all I'm saying. And WingSpan, like I noted, is one of several Factors. I graded Zack Martin extremely highly as a Guard that Year.

 

[patchick]

I think that "small" is not a very clear term. Mason is short, definitely (CBS Sports lists him as 6' 1 7/8", but that's quibbling; he's under 6'2"). He has short arms (31 1/8" at the Senior Bowl weigh in) and a limited wingspan (77 1/2" at the Senior Bowl). But does that make him "small"?

Umm...yes?

Remember, I love the pick and am rooting for Mason to win the LG job out of camp. I never said he was too small to play in the NFL. But of course he's a small guard. The Pats are grooming Cam Fleming to play guard too. Fleming is 6'5" 325 with 34" arms. That's big; Mason is small.

 

[mayoclinic]

Umm...yes?

Remember, I love the pick and am rooting for Mason to win the LG job out of camp. I never said he was too small to play in the NFL. But of course he's a small guard. The Pats are grooming Cam Fleming to play guard too. Fleming is 6'5" 325 with 34" arms. That's big; Mason is small.

Fleming is a tackle/guard hybrid. Of course he's bigger. 6'5" with 34" arms is just not the norm for a guard in the NFL. 32" arms and a 79-80" wingspan is much more common, regardless of height and weight. Fleming also played more on the end of the line than inside last year; I don't think anyone would suggest using Mason in that way.

No one that I recall called Zach Martin "small" last year. He was lighter than Mason, with a smaller wingspan, and short arms. No one called Kyle Long "small" in 2013 at 6'6" 320#, but he had minuscule arms for his size. Bryan Stork wasn't called "small" last year. Other than being about 2" taller than Mason, there's no significant difference.

What exactly about Mason makes him a "small guard"? As best I can tell, the fact that he's short and has short arms seems to be your criteria. I personally look more at whether a player is likely to be overpowered by bigger DTs. Ryan Wendell and Rich Ohrnberger were both "small" according to that definition. I don't think Mason is.

Perhaps a different term would avoid some of the confusion.

 

[Off The Grid]

Why'd he call me "Shorty"???

 

[AzorianPats]

I'm absolutely ecstatic that we got Mason. Unfortunately, both he and Stork profile far better as Centers than as Guards, primarily because of the WingSpan issue that HatCheck Girl points out.

OTG, whats your opinion on Tre Jackson?

 

[mayoclinic]

Vince Wilfork was under 6'2" with 32" arms and a short wingspan. He did ok for a "small" DT.

Shaq Mason ran a 4.99 40, had a 1.75 10-split, a 7.53 3-cone, and a 32" VJ. He's a very athletic fire hydrant.

FWIW, I'm guessing that Mason will be our starting LG by 2016 and was drafted with that plan in mind. Mason started 12 games at LG for Georgia Tech as a sophomore. Even if the Pats somehow sign La'el Collins (low probability). In that situation, I'd play Collins at LG in 2015 while Mason develops, and then move Collins to tackle in 2016. Sebastian Vollmer will be in a contract year and will turn 32, and Nate Solder's long term situation has not yet been resolved.

 

[Off The Grid]

OTG, whats your opinion on Tre Jackson?

I thought he was Par Value for the Pick, Brother Azorian ~ I'd given'm a 4th/5th Rounder Ranking.

I'm not a big fan of his ~ I prefer far more Agility from my Gorillas that Coach DeGuglielmo does. Nor was I a fan of the hiring of Coach DeGuglielmo himself. But after some dramatic Growing Pains, the Line came together extraordinarily well in Coach D's first Year. I am intensely impressed with him, as with Bryan Stork, for whom I held an equally tepid amount of Enthusiasm, last Year. All of which is to say: as DeGuglielmo seems to know what he's doing, I'm actually pretty freaking jazzed about Jackson.

Not only does Coach D clearly know how to coach Extra Beefy Gorillas like Stork, but Stork and Jackson are old Running Mates from the Seminole Championship Campaign of 2013, which certainly helps.

Frankly, I think we've got our Right Guard...and perhaps for the next Decade.

 

[patchick]

Mayo, I'm not equating "small" with "weak" or "ineffective" or "easily pushed around." I think Mason plays with terrific leverage and can give big DTs fits. He's just not very big, that's all. (Which is why he wasn't invited to the Combine when many less-accomplished o-linemen were.)

 

[mayoclinic]

Mayo, I'm not equating "small" with "weak" or "ineffective" or "easily pushed around." I think Mason plays with terrific leverage and can give big DTs fits. He's just not very big, that's all. (Which is why he wasn't invited to the Combine when many less accomplished o-linemen were.)

I understand you're perspective. I just don't think that Mason is "small". "Short", yes. But it's not worth continuing to wrangle over.

 

[mayoclinic]

I thought he was Par Value for the Pick, Brother Azorian ~ I'd given'm a 4th/5th Rounder Ranking.

I'm not a big fan of his ~ I prefer far more Agility from my Gorillas that Coach DeGuglielmo does. Nor was I a fan of the hiring of Coach DeGuglielmo himself. But after some dramatic Growing Pains, the Line came together extraordinarily well in Coach D's first Year. I am intensely impressed with him, as with Bryan Stork, for whom I held an equally tepid amount of Enthusiasm, last Year. All of which is to say: as DeGuglielmo seems to know what he's doing, I'm actually pretty freaking jazzed about Jackson.

Not only does Coach D clearly know how to coach Extra Beefy Gorillas like Stork, but Stork and Jackson are old Running Mates from the Seminole Championship Campaign of 2013, which certainly helps.

Frankly, I think we've got our Right Guard...and perhaps for the next Decade.

That's my take too, FWIW. I was NOT a fan of drafting Jackson, but in the 4th round, it's a solid pick. He isn't as agile as I'd like, and he's a pure RG, but he'll be a solid starter, especially with Stork next to him.

 

[patchick]

But it's not worth continuing to wrangle over.

Hey, there's something we agree on!

I actually feel pretty confident in what the Pats can get from Mason; I'm more curious about what Jackson and Fleming become.

 

[mayoclinic]

Hey, there's something we agree on!

I actually feel pretty confident in what the Pats can get from Mason; I'm more curious about what Jackson and Fleming become.

Oops, we disagree, again. That's not something that happens every day.

I'm pretty confident with what we will get from Jackson: a solid plug and play RG, and nothing more. Not flashy, but solid, and a potential 5-10 year starter. What we get from Mason, OTOH, is wide open. I personally think it could be much, much more.

I do agree about the curiosity in Fleming, but I think he has greatest value as a versatile piece who can be used at both tackle and guard, and in jumbo packages.

It's a very intriguing OL, and if the Pats somehow do land Collins, it will be a top 3 OL in the NFL IMO, and by far the Pats' best OL since 2011 (Light, Vollmer, Solder, Mankins, Connolly and Brian Waters).

 

[AzorianPats]

That's my take too, FWIW. I was NOT a fan of drafting Jackson, but in the 4th round, it's a solid pick. He isn't as agile as I'd like, and he's a pure RG, but he'll be a solid starter, especially with Stork next to him.

MC i knew were you and Manx stood on beefier Olinemen. Seems like the 3 of you guys prefer the agile linemen.

Me personally i loved both pics. You guys think this is going to be a switch to a more power run game?