Patriots Rumor Adam Schefter on WEEI

[JackBauer]

I'll repeat my earlier statement--last year, Deltha O'Neal was a top CB in the league.

I never thought of O'Neal as a top DB.

Regardless, how is this relevant?

 

[spacecrime]

Please refute what I said. You made a generalization, I backed it up with fact from his performances that I watched. I've also watched significant reps of the other players you named. If you want to claim something contrary to my opinion, I'm all for that, however please back it up with something other than rhetoric.

You had no facts. You had opinions, same as everyone else. You saw game tape and feel that Samuel is best? That's not a fact.

Many of us feel that Hobbs is the better CB based on watching the same games.

10 INTs is a fact.

Better football instincts and all the rest of what you said were not facts. They were opinions.

Believe what you want, state your opoinions, but kindly get off your high horse and stop thinking that yours are the only opinions that are right.

 

[JackBauer]

Many of us feel that Hobbs is the better CB based on watching the same games.

Do you actually believe this? Just curious.

 

[spacecrime]

You still look the fool

Reminds me of my first wife. When you realize you made a mistake, resort to name-calling. Worked for her.

 

[zippo59]

Do you actually believe this? Just curious.

Personally, I believe Hobss is ahead of where Samuel was at the same time. What he will turn into, who knows.

 

[Flying Fungi]

I never thought of O'Neal as a top DB.

Regardless, how is this relevant?

how is it not relevant?

it shows that you have a centric view of Asante--O'Neal put up very similar numbers in 2005 to Asante in 2006--here you are saying that O'Neal isn't a top DB and yet Asante is for doing the same thing a year later

further--O'Neal--came back down to earth in 2006--and yet nobody is expecting that Asante will do anything but get better...glossing over the risk factor involved with big money contracts...

 

[Deus Irae]

If you want to split hairs, go right ahead. It's the players making the argument, not you. Give me a freakin' break.

You still look the fool though because there is NO fair argument to be made in this instance. Almost as ludicrous as Samuel arguably being the best CB on the Pats.

Still waiting for your list.

There's no fair argument? Call me after you watch some of the Chargers games from last season.

As for the list, why would I bother? I gave you a quick list of 10 (11 if you count Hobbs), and you were ignorant enough to completely discount Barber, Clements and Hall. That tells me all I need to know about you and your opinion in this matter.

 

[JackBauer]

Reminds me of my first wife. When you realize you made a mistake, resort to name-calling. Worked for her.

Good to know.

 

[Michigan Dave]

You had no facts. You had opinions, same as everyone else. You saw game tape and feel that Samuel is best? That's not a fact.

Many of us feel that Hobbs is the better CB based on watching the same games.

10 INTs is a fact.

Better football instincts and all the rest of what you said were not facts. They were opinions.

Believe what you want, state your opoinions, but kindly get off your high horse and stop thinking that yours are the only opinions that are right.

I'm not. But I have been a talent evaluator before, have coached before, and was actually offered a player development position for an NFL team. So, excuse me if I get on a "high horse" when someone refutes something by pulling out a position list on NFL.com and highlighting "name" players. I believe that there is a very high level of discussion on this board, which is the main reason I'm here. It's phenomenal, and there are numerous posters with awesome opinions and contributions that make me love this forum. Yours in this thread is weak, and your counter-posts are insulting. Again, please tell me why you feel Samuel is not a top-level CB in the league? Is it because he is currently negotiating a contract and wants to get paid? It's a defense mechanism to bash a player when it looks like he'll leave your team. We saw a lot of it last year with the Branch situation (though I agreed with the masses that the Pats' stance was correct.)

 

[JackBauer]

There's no fair argument? Call me after you watch some of the Chargers games from last season.

While he's managed to diverge from the path to bustdom I think many had him charted on, I don't think there's much of an argument to be made here.

Plus playing with probably the best front seven and pass rush in the league last year probably helped some. Though to his credit SD's safeties are nothing to write home about.

As for the list, why would I bother? I gave you a quick list of 10 (11 if you count Hobbs), and you were ignorant enough to completely discount Barber, Clements and Hall. That tells me all I need to know about you and your opinion in this matter.

Because I want to see the other four on the list?

Having a different opinion now makes me ignorant? I discounted them because at this point I think Samuel is marginally better than Barber and Clement but that's no slight to them. I like Newman, too.

And what is this love for Hall?

 

[JackBauer]

how is it not relevant?

it shows that you have a centric view of Asante--O'Neal put up very similar numbers in 2005 to Asante in 2006--here you are saying that O'Neal isn't a top DB and yet Asante is for doing the same thing a year later

further--O'Neal--came back down to earth in 2006--and yet nobody is expecting that Asante will do anything but get better...glossing over the risk factor involved with big money contracts...

And it's just as likely (moreso, I'd say) Samuel will continue to improve rather that pull an O'Neal-esque crash and burn.

Why not compare him to Bailey back in the day before he became the consensus #1 CB in the league? Would not the comparison be just as apt, interceptions notwithstanding.

 

[Ring 6]

And it's just as likely (moreso, I'd say) Samuel will continue to improve rather that pull an O'Neal-esque crash and burn.

Why not compare him to Bailey back in the day before he became the consensus #1 CB in the league? Would not the comparison be just as apt, interceptions notwithstanding.

Comparing Asante Samuel to Deltha ONeil implies you never watched either one play football, and can only read the Int column of a stat sheet to judge a DB.
Deltha ONeil never was even an average corner. Asante Samuel would have been a good corner last year if he dropped every Int he actually caught.

 

[JackBauer]

Comparing Asante Samuel to Deltha ONeil implies you never watched either one play football, and can only read the Int column of a stat sheet to judge a DB.
Deltha ONeil never was even an average corner. Asante Samuel would have been a good corner last year if he dropped every Int he actually caught.

That's my view. I never liked O'Neal. Or Tory James for that matter, who, incidentally, also made the Pro Bowl(!).

 

[Michigan Dave]

Comparing Asante Samuel to Deltha ONeil implies you never watched either one play football, and can only read the Int column of a stat sheet to judge a DB.
Deltha ONeil never was even an average corner. Asante Samuel would have been a good corner last year if he dropped every Int he actually caught.

I think the point was that O'Neal went from respectable in 2005 (he was decent- for O'Neal) to disaster in 2006. O'Neal had pretty stats, but namely succeeded more due to being in the right place at the right time than creating his opportunities. Asante puts himself in the right position, and if he gambles wrong, has become probably the best in the league at recovering. He should continue to improve, and hopefully that experience combined with his natural playmaking instincts will give him the awareness that Champ Bailey has, where he won't have to gamble very much at all.

 

[Ring 6]

I'll repeat my earlier statement--last year, Deltha O'Neal was a top CB in the league.

I dont think you could find one NFL personell guy who wouldnt laugh out loud at that statement.

Deltha Oneil is lucky to start in the NFL, and wouldn't be #3 on many teams.

 

[Ring 6]

That's my view. I never liked O'Neal. Or Tory James for that matter, who, incidentally, also made the Pro Bowl(!).

Tory James is horrible. A team that started James and ONeil at corner would probably rank last vs the pass (only probably not definite because they would be behind all the time so teams would stop throwing) and certainly couldnt win 5 games unless they had an offense that averafed 30 points.

 

[JackBauer]

Tory James is horrible. A team that started James and ONeil at corner would probably rank last vs the pass (only probably not definite because they would be behind all the time so teams would stop throwing) and certainly couldnt win 5 games unless they had an offense that averafed 30 points.

Well, I only bring him up because he was IIRC the other starting CB on the Bengals during the season when O'Neal racked up all those INTs. As such, both CBs became massively overrated; I don't think Samuel is like either of those players -- he's not just lucky, he can actually cover too.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Well, I only bring him up because he was IIRC the other starting CB on the Bengals during the season when O'Neal racked up all those INTs. As such, both CBs became massively overrated; I don't think Samuel is like either of those players -- he's not just lucky, he can actually cover too.

Bingo. The Bengals offense also was racking up mega points in 2005, and the strategy for the opposition was adjusted to compensate and keep pace. Therefore, more forced throws where DBs can make easy INTs on underthrown passes.

 

[Ring 6]

Well, I only bring him up because he was IIRC the other starting CB on the Bengals during the season when O'Neal racked up all those INTs. As such, both CBs became massively overrated; I don't think Samuel is like either of those players -- he's not just lucky, he can actually cover too.

I dont know how the reality that Samuel is a COMPLETE corner is getting lost on everyone.
BB DOES NOT run a defense that makes it easy for a corner to Int a lot of passes. Corners in this defense are required to do everything. I dont think there is a defense in the league that puts more stock in the cb playing force in the running game. You cannot play corner in this D if you are not equally good in man and zone coverage. We play a lot of zone, which negates the Int numbers, but also are as willing as any D to expose corners on an island on key 3rd down plays.
A Patriot corner needs to not get beaten deep, be able to force on the edge vs the run, and have strong zone discipline while playing many complex schemes. (We also ask corners to cover a much wider variety of areas of the field when we play zone than most teams)
Here you must be able to do all of these things well, where many other defenses place a much higher priority on fewer things (i.e. in the Tampa D you must only be good at zone coverage in the cover2 to be an effective corner)

 

[FirstAndGoal]

Some of you are in panic mode. Think about it. If Samuel is having teams fall all over him for that kind of money then where are they? Why aren't they at the table trying to make a trade with the Pats? If this guy is the second coming of Jesus (as some seem to think) then they should be willing to give up at least a first round pick for the guy. This is nothing but a negotiation tactic. He might get an offer and he might not but the Pats aren't going to break the bank if no one else is willing to break the bank ...right? If someone wants to break the bank over Samuel, then break the bank.