Pats and Wilfork close to a deal for an extension?

[patfanken]

Players refuse cuts all the time, because of pride or hurt feelings.

Look, I get that most people reflexively side with the owners. Most people don't bother to think. Shouldn't we be beyond that here?

This isn't a "reflexive" reaction, its simple common sense. Something that seemingly is eluding you on this issue. The Vince who played over 80% of the defensive snaps in 2011 and '12 was worth every penny of the top dollar he was paid.

In 2013, based on his play in the 3 starts he had before his injury in the 4th, not so much. Then add the issue of his particular type of injury and there wouldn't be a team in the league that would be wiling to pay him anything close to half of what he is due to be paid here.

C'mon DI. You're the resident self appointed genius here, what's the number you think is reasonable for the Pats to invest for a 33 year old NT who is coming off a bad year, a horrific injury, and in the last year of a huge contract. Add to that, you don't know when he's going to be ready, or even if. You need the cap space, you are currently playing a defense that has limited use for a NT, and you are playing in a league where the need for a "run stopper" becomes less important every single year.

You can split hairs about whether the cash payout is $7.5MM or $8MM, but what cant be denied is that the cap number is $11.6. THAT number was never going to stand even if Vince had been healthy and playing to his past level (neither of which happened). So before someone "nips at your heels" or goes "reflexive", what would the great an powerful man behind the curtain, DO, if he had the same situation????????? Please bless us all with your wisdom. Either that or just spare us from your contrarian, Borges-like commentary.

Personally I don't understand Vince's intransigence on this. He's a very smart dude. He HAD to see it coming. Why then all the antics? He really should know 3 things by now.

1. The best way to negotiate with the Pats is privately
2. He's worth more to the Pats than any other team in the league.
3. Guys who are his age, coming off a bad year, AND a bad injury, don't get paid top dollar.

It all kind of makes me thing that Vince's relations with the team might not be as bad as the mediots are making it out to be. Just a thought.

 

[Ring 6]

The way posters speak of Wilfork in here you would have thought he was 650Lbs. rolling in a wheel chair, I thought seeing an image of Wilfork standing in a pair of loafers looking no larger than he has in the past was more telling than what a reporter said.

My point exactly. You are saying you can judge his health and rehab by a picture and his shoes and be more reputable and accurate than a reporter passing along information coming from the team. Its foolish.

 

[Rob0729]

The way posters speak of Wilfork in here you would have thought he was 650Lbs. rolling in a wheel chair, I thought seeing an image of Wilfork standing in a pair of loafers looking no larger than he has in the past was more telling than what a reporter said.

Let me ask you: When you are scheduled to have a physical, do you e-mail your doctor images of your last vacation to examine you?

Yes, Wilfork looks slimmer in the pictures than he was in December and January, but that tells us nothing on where he is in his rehab and whether he will be will be ready for the start of the season or whether he will be anywhere remotely close to 100% when he does come back.

The fact of the matter is that he is a man well over 300 lbs and he had an injury that can take up to over a year to come back from and his weight can affect his rehab. I am not going by any report or any picture, I am speaking of the real possibility that he will not be remotely the same player he was prior to his injury this upcoming season. I never said I know and the fact is that neither do you.

And Wilfork training and rehabbing really hard doesn't guarantee that he can return to form this year. It will help, but if he completely tore the ligament and his weight is affecting his rehab, training hard won't overcome those things.

 

[BradyManny]

Players refuse cuts all the time, because of pride or hurt feelings.

Okay. And NFL owners tear up the non-guaranteed portions of contracts when a player is no longer worth it. Nothing out of the ordinary has happened here, yet.

Look, I get that most people reflexively side with the owners. Most people don't bother to think. Shouldn't we be beyond that here?

I've said myself, I understand Wilfork's reaction, it's an emotional one, but it's not a rational one. It's not in his best interest, and it's certainly not utilizing the ability to think you are advocating here.

Are you saying you think Wilfork will get more money by getting cut and seeing what's out there on the open market?

His best chance to make money is here, and it's because the Patriots would rather overpay for his services than pay $3.5 million for not having him. Were he to hit the open market now, he'd hit it at a time when his stock couldn't possibly be any lower, and when run stuffers are not being valued highly.

 

[Deus Irae]

Okay. And NFL ownership tears up the non-guaranteed portions of contracts when a player is no longer worth it. Nothing out of the ordinary has happened here, yet.

I've said myself, I understand Wilfork's reaction, it's an emotional one, but it's not a rational one. It's not in his best interest, and it's certainly not utilizing the ability to think you are advocating here.

It's a perfectly rational reaction. He simply decides that he would rather move elsewhere than stay with an employee that screwed him over. There's nothing irrational about that (and I've already opined that the Patriots cutting Wilfork and/or asking him to restructure is reasonable, but I'm talking about looking at it from the player perspective, so let's not play the "You hate the Patriots!" game on this).

Are you saying you think Wilfork will get more money by getting cut and seeing what's out there on the open market?

I have no idea what he'd get on the open market, because I don't know the status of that Achilles. If the Achilles is looking sound, though, there are a lot of teams who could use a DT.

His best chance to make money is here, and it's because the Patriots would rather overpay for his services than pay $3.5 million for not having him. Were he to hit the open market now, he'd hit it at a time when his stock couldn't possibly be any lower, and when run stuffers are not being valued highly.

The moment you make the claim that his best chance to make money is with a team that's trying to get him to accept a cut, in a year where guys like Ware and Peppers are making out just fine by moving on, you enter into a situation where you're just throwing things against a wall.

 

[bagwell368]

The way posters speak of Wilfork in here you would have thought he was 650Lbs. rolling in a wheel chair, I thought seeing an image of Wilfork standing in a pair of loafers looking no larger than he has in the past was more telling than what a reporter said.

2012.

Tell me VW weighs and ounce less than 355 lbs in this pic. 365-370 looks more like it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=wil...icial-Patriots-Look-a-like-Thread****;282;400

 

[BradyManny]

It's a perfectly rational reaction. He simply decides that he would rather move elsewhere than stay with an employee that screwed him over. There's nothing irrational about that.

How exactly have the Patriots screwed him over? Their obligation is to field the best team they can, not to make their players happy, or to be the only team in the NFL to fully honor their contracts even if it is not wise to do so.

The moment you make the claim that his best chance to make money is with a team that's trying to get him to accept a cut, in a year where guys like Ware and Peppers are making out just fine by moving on, you enter into a situation where you're just throwing things against a wall.

Peppers and Ware can rush the passer and play defensive end, they are not comps at all. Red Bryant with a 4 year $19 million with $5 million guaranteed is the closest comp.

 

[Deus Irae]

How exactly have the Patriots screwed him over? Their obligation is to field the best team they can, not to make their players happy, or to be the only team in the NFL to fully honor their contracts even if it is not wise to do so.

From his perspective? By not honoring the contract. Come on, now. This is basic stuff.

Peppers and Ware can rush the passer and play defensive end, they are not comps at all. Red Bryant with a 4 year $19 million with $5 million guaranteed is the closest comp.

Again, come on. Wilfork has been, when healthy, the best player of that group, and a much better player than Red Bryant. His recent snap percentages have also been much higher than what Bryant played last season.

 

[Ring 6]

From his perspective? By not honoring the contract. Come on, now. This is basic stuff.
.

The 2014 salary is a team option, as are all of the other years, because that is the way NFL contracts work.
Vince Wilfork knows that.
They would completely be honoring the contract by exercising their right to terminate it.
That is not screwing the player, that is making a decision whether he belongs on the roster at that price.
Are you saying every team screws every player it cuts at the end of preseason?

 

[Zeus]

Both Vince and his wife have made it clear that the NFL is a business. So treat it that way and make a businesslike decision.

If Vince and his advisers believe that he can make more money elsewhere (and he can secure his release from the Patriots), then Vaya con Dios. But these sorts of judgments involve risk - just ask Stephen Drew. If the medicals are in question at all, Vince isn't going to have much of a market until he shows he's ready to play.

On the other hand, if he's going to take less money elsewhere because his feeling are hurt, that's neither rational nor businesslike. It's dumb.

Coaches can't afford to be sentimental. The good feelings from taking care of a long term veteran who has been a loyal soldier aren't much comfort when the losses are mounting. So yeah, Belichick and the Patriots are going to treat this as a business decision. It doesn't make them ****s or unethical or unfair and anything like that. Just realistic.

 

[BradyManny]

From his perspective? By not honoring the contract. Come on, now. This is basic stuff.

All they have to honor is the guaranteed money.

That's how NFL contracts work, and if the Patriots were the 1 team out of 32 who pretended otherwise for the sake of loyalty to their players, they'd be at a huge competitive disadvantage.

But I'll remember the completely illogical argument you're making the next time you suggest we cut a player with any money left on their contract. I'll assume you want Adrian Wilson here through 2015 then??

Again, come on. Wilfork has been, when healthy, the best player of that group, and a much better player than Red Bryant. His recent snap percentages have also been much higher than what Bryant played last season.

Again, Wilfork plays a different - and much lower paid - position than Ware & Peppers, so while I agree he is better than both of them, when healthy, what they make has nothing to do with what Vince is worth.

Bryant's contract went from 5/35 to 4/19 despite no real decline in his play. It's indicative of the market for DTs.

The snap percentages are irrelevant and have to do with the personnel and scheme on both teams. Wilfork was a better player than Bryant last we saw him healthy, yes, but he's coming off an achilles injury, and is three years older.

 

[deters]

2012.

Tell me VW weighs and ounce less than 355 lbs in this pic. 365-370 looks more like it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=wil...icial-Patriots-Look-a-like-Thread****;282;400

He's so big, cuz Vince treats every meal like its thanksgiving!

 

[captain stone]

In 2012 Wilfork played in 81.2% of the defensive snaps.

What percentage of snaps does a player have to play in to be considered a 3-down player?

According to Bill apparently, about 95%.

 

[Deus Irae]

All they have to honor is the guaranteed money.

That's how NFL contracts work, and if the Patriots were the 1 team out of 32 who pretended otherwise for the sake of loyalty to their players, they'd be at a huge competitive disadvantage.

But I'll remember the completely illogical argument you're making the next time you suggest we cut a player with any money left on their contract. I'll assume you want Adrian Wilson here through 2015 then??

Your failure to grasp both logic and perspective is your problem, not mine. Since you're incapable of grasping either on this topic, further discussion is useless. Should you ever grasp the notion that there are three sides to this, and not just the ownership and fan positions, let me know and we can try again.

As I have pointed out in other posts, this is a situation with multiple reasonable alternatives, including Wilfork restructuring or getting cut. Apparently, another obvious point also needs to be pointed out: both sides can be reasonable without there being anything even approaching an agreement.

 

[Brady6]

My point exactly. You are saying you can judge his health and rehab by a picture and his shoes and be more reputable and accurate than a reporter passing along information coming from the team. Its foolish.

I trust the fact that the Patriots have not released him yet and are still trying to work out a deal a lot more than I trust Tom Curran. I consider Curran to be an absolute moron, Quick Slants is a freaking embarrassment, and I cannot believe it is on the air, the show is like Pee-wee Herman covering football.

As far as the photos go, I made note of them because it is largely speculated that Wilfork is fat as ever and that is not true, he looks like he does every time I have seen him in the past decade. As far as the shoes go, well I pointed them out because the discussion is that he would not be ready to play for six weeks into the season. This would mean in that picture he was eight-nine months from a return to the football field, and I would expect him to be in a walking boot at least if that was actually the case. If the Achilles was not completely healed structurally he would at least had it wrapped, the fact that he was not even wearing high tops to lend support tells me that structurally his Achilles is sound and now it comes down to getting back into shape and regaining his strength and mobility. That should not take him eight-nine months to do.

Foolish is that we are taking anything that has to do with a major injury seriously that Curran says.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...bout-brady-s-recovery-page4.html#.UzM0E-NdWK9

NBC Sports: Brady behind schedule in recovery from surgery - Pats Pulpit

 

[Brady6]

Let me ask you: When you are scheduled to have a physical, do you e-mail your doctor images of your last vacation to examine you?

Yes, Wilfork looks slimmer in the pictures than he was in December and January, but that tells us nothing on where he is in his rehab and whether he will be will be ready for the start of the season or whether he will be anywhere remotely close to 100% when he does come back.

The fact of the matter is that he is a man well over 300 lbs and he had an injury that can take up to over a year to come back from and his weight can affect his rehab. I am not going by any report or any picture, I am speaking of the real possibility that he will not be remotely the same player he was prior to his injury this upcoming season. I never said I know and the fact is that neither do you.

And Wilfork training and rehabbing really hard doesn't guarantee that he can return to form this year. It will help, but if he completely tore the ligament and his weight is affecting his rehab, training hard won't overcome those things.

No because I am standing in front of the doctor, but since I am not at the doctor with Wilfork then yes I would take what he looks like currently, and that his leg is not even in a wrap into consideration. Especially when that photo was taken in early February, which was 8 months prior to the start of the NFL season.

You are forming your opinion on the word of Curran; maybe you should take a read back to 2009, read some of you own words, and make sure you really want to hook your star to his wagon again.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...bout-brady-s-recovery-page4.html#.UzM0Z-NdWK8

 

[BradyManny]

Your failure to grasp both logic and perspective is your problem, not mine. Since you're incapable of grasping either on this topic, further discussion is useless. Should you ever grasp the notion that there are three sides to this, and not just the ownership and fan positions, let me know and we can try again.

As I have pointed out in other posts, this is a situation with multiple reasonable alternatives, including Wilfork restructuring or getting cut.

I've repeatedly said I understand Wilfork's reaction. I said in one of my first posts towards you in this thread. However, I called it an emotional one, and not a logical one, which you seemingly took offense to. You have not even attempted to explain to me what was wrong with that categorization, merely considered it a given that I was being ridiculous.

I've made several legitimate points about NFL contracts (as have other posters, AndyJohnson above) that you have completely and persistently failed to address.

If you want to be taken seriously, you can't simply proclaim my argument is completely without merit without any explanation. I'm not going to just take your word for it.

You can't simply duck and dodge arguments by using your sheer incredulity to the opponent's opinion as the only evidence of its shortcomings.

Please address my points and actually respond to them.

 

[supafly]

I consider Curran to be an absolute moron

I think Curran is one of the better reporters out there. To each his own.

We shouldn't crucify the guy for one bad report in Dec/Jan of 2008/09 when Brady was actually having problems, even if Curran's speculation went a bit too far and over the top.

 

[Brady6]

I think Curran is one of the better reporters out there. To each his own.



We shouldn't crucify the guy for one bad report in Dec/Jan of 2008/09 when Brady was actually having problems, even if Curran's speculation went a bit too far and over the top.

I don't hold just that report against him. His show is quirky and he makes a fool of himself, he lacks insight on just about everything he reports, and his interviews are actually painful to watch.

That's just my opinion.

 

[Brady6]

2012.



Tell me VW weighs and ounce less than 355 lbs in this pic. 365-370 looks more like it.



https://www.google.com/search?q=wil...icial-Patriots-Look-a-like-Thread****;282;400

I cannot open the link but in my opinion Wilfork has played the past 7-8 years at 360lbs or more. He weighed 323lbs at his pro day and if he has not gained 35-40lbs in the past decade I would be shocked.