College Football Star Michael Sam Says He Is Gay; May Become First Publicly G...

[primetime]

Couldn’t one also argue the reverse? That since the gay uncle doesn’t have kids there’s less of a support network. I’ve helped my cousins in the past and they’ve also helped me.

That's certainly true in today's world, but keep in mind that the last century has seen tremendous changes in childhood mortality rates. Before that (and especially in the deep history of our species), it was not uncommon for entire generations of families to fail to reach adulthood due to disease, starvation, lack of shelter. And there were no states to provide services to children and families. Meanwhile, even the life of the average adult and thus the length of a generation was fairly brief.

An extra adult to hunt, gather, farm, and build could do more to help a given cohort of a family's children to survive instead simply providing another 6-8 fragile offspring who they would have to care for themselves.

Good to think on, thanks for the interesting question.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

I'm intrigued by this Natural Law you speak of. Does this involve more than slamming two plugs together and going 'See they don't fit!!!'? Or does it revolve around the inability of two people of the same sex to create life? Where do infertile people fit into that? Marriage?

Natural law can be as simple as slamming two plugs together and saying..."see it doesn't fit" because Natural law is self evident. There are cases like infertile people where it becomes a little more complex but again, self evident. From the way you posed your question, Im not sure you were looking for a sincere and honest debate/dialouge. Also, Im not sure if this is the correct forum or thread to have a debate on sexuality and Natural law.
If you're sincere in your desire and you'd wish to continue, might I suggest a thread in the religion forum and I will follow up. In the meantime, here are two links that you might find helpful if you desire to read them.


CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Natural Law

Natural law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Your statement:



was unprompted. In other words you didn't turn religion because "someone else brought it up."

Um, I think I know why I entered the debate. I've debated this issues hundreds of times before and I debated it using both Natural law and religion.

 

[primetime]

There are cases like infertile people where it becomes a little more complex but again, self evident.

Wait no this doesn't make any sense at all

Natural law as a philosophical concept is part of a debate stretching from classical times, I'm not sure you can hand-wave it away as saying "this is natural law because I say it is." Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, and Hegel would all laugh at you.

 

[Ivan]

My take on homosexuality is this simple. Sometimes Tammy gets daddy's eyes and sometimes Timmy gets mommy's nose, sometimes Johnny gets Mommy's brains and Jimmy gets Daddy's alcoholism, and sometimes Suzy gets Mommy's attraction to men and Sammy also gets Mommy's attraction to men, or Suzy gets daddy's attraction to women. It is as natural as any other genetic trait and passed along the same way, what makes it "unnatural' is the social mores of the societies we live in.


As far as Christ goes i am pretty sure he wasn't a hater, regardless of what many of his followers wish to claim, and if he shaved the goatee it would be hard to tell him from Mary.

 

[PP2]

Jesus could have very well mentioned it and it was never written down. That being said, I would guess that he wouldn't have mentioned it because his ministry was generally limited to the Jewish people and homosexual acts were clearly considered immoral by the Jewish people at that time. It would have been like convincing Patriots fans that they should cheer for the Patriots.

Not making sense at all. Just because Jesus "might not have said it," isn't grounds to assume he may have made statements to that effect.

Paul and others (like Jude) address it in the New Testament because they are confronted with it in the pagan world. And yes, it is often confronted as pederasty because in most cases thats what they encountered and also because the idea of an equal same sex "relationship" between two adults was foreign to people of that time. These "relationships" during that time were often based upon dominance and "rank".

Why do you think you can get away with making things up? The word Paul uses, arsenokoitēs, specifically refers to pederasty which was prevalent in early Greece.

There is not a shred of historical evidence that anyone in the first century A.D. understood arsenokoitēs to refer to homosexuality in general.

If you look at the oral tradtion of the church and you take it into account when reading both the New and Old Testatment, there is no doubt that the Church has consistently taught that homosexual acts are immoral.

You are confusing the church with the bible. Two very different things.

It's hypocritical to see the church as the "final authority" on the morality of homosexuality when it has had to pay out millions and millions in damages to thousands of victims of child sex abuse.

 

[DolphinsX72]

He would fit will in a system like New England's where coaches know how to use a player with a different style. Being undersized for his position, yet talented, he needs a team that knows what they're doing and he'll be solid.

 

[upstater1]

Well I am not an R.C. so that let's me out of this one. But if we are talking one man sexually and engaging sex upon another, that is not only a trait that many religions, not just Christianity, adhere to as incorrect behavior, but in the natural world order of the majority of species as well.

The Christian Bible tells us marriage and love is a gift HE has given us, and between a man and a women. Sex is a gift for more than procreation in my religion, but man and woman is key.

I have said for the 100th time I am not judging the kid. Just his lifestyle choice as in my opinion, not what the Bible had in mind. That is what my brain says.

Andy you are not changing me nor I you. This has already gone further than it needs to.
DW Toys

There are Christian gay priests who are totally open about that fact with their congregation.

The bible you cite thinks gangrape is a plausible alternative to homosexuality.

 

[DW Toys]

There are Christian gay priests who are totally open about that fact with their congregation.

The bible you cite thinks gangrape is a plausible alternative to homosexuality.

OK. You win.
DW Toys

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Wait no this doesn't make any sense at all

Natural law as a philosophical concept is part of a debate stretching from classical times, I'm not sure you can hand-wave it away as saying "this is natural law because I say it is." Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, and Hegel would all laugh at you.

Obviously, if you read my entire post, I wasn't trying to give an "in depth" presentation on natural law and how it has been viewed during the centuries. That being said, I think there is in fact a "natural law". The links I posted give a deeper analysis and I was willing to discuss it further in the religion forum.

 

[upstater1]

Obviously, if you read my entire post, I wasn't trying to give an "in depth" presentation on natural law and how it has been viewed during the centuries. That being said, I think there is in fact a "natural law". The links I posted give a deeper analysis and I was willing to discuss it further in the religion forum.

Did you accidentally skip my post on Lot and the Angels?

 

[Patters]

Sam did a brave and wonderful thing by coming out. By doing what he did, it makes it little easier for the tens of thousands of gay kids who love sports to be themselves.

 

[Ivan]

Well I am not an R.C. so that let's me out of this one. But if we are talking one man sexually and engaging sex upon another, that is not only a trait that many religions, not just Christianity, adhere to as incorrect behavior, but in the natural world order of the majority of species as well.

The Christian Bible tells us marriage and love is a gift HE has given us, and between a man and a women. Sex is a gift for more than procreation in my religion, but man and woman is key.

I have said for the 100th time I am not judging the kid. Just his lifestyle choice as in my opinion, not what the Bible had in mind. That is what my brain says.

Andy you are not changing me nor I you. This has already gone further than it needs to.
DW Toys

It isn't a "choice," as you like to keep calling it. Why on earth would so many people choose to be gay and then go through the torment of trying to keep that from people for years and years when they "naturally" are attracted to the opposite sex? People inherit their sexual disposition from their parents, and what makes any person gay or heterosexual is their in inheritance of their sexual attraction from one parent or another, that isn't a matter of choice any more than one can choose their eye color.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Sam is a young man who plays football.
He feels he needs to announce he will be a gay NFL player
Hopefully he is the last man to announce anything.
We are all created and live in this country as equals.
Most in the country will applaud him ... we're getting there.

​

​

 

[Ivan]

Good for Sam for having the courage to come out, hopefully he doesn't suck.


Oh, wait..................

 

[Ring 6]

I don't go up to family and sat, "Dude, wish you were straight." I am not telling them to change their lifestyle Andy. You have no right to say how I have interacted with them. You do not know.

I am glad your brain has transcended your raised religious beliefs, I am glad you are tolerant of those who do not agree with your brain's wanderings.

The only guy who will judge anyone gay or not but we are all sinners is not amongst us.

I stand on my tragedy opinion, and it is just my opinion.

I have not been to any Gay Bashing meetings lately,

So your point is....don't judge someone for their beliefs?
DW Toys

No. My point is that your actions are hurtful to those human beings.
If you don't think your gay relatives do not find it hurtful that you want them to hide that they are gay in your presence, you should really exercise some thought.
Gay teenagers struggle with their identity. They struggle with the idea that of gay being immoral. They struggle with thinking there is something wrong them. They live in fear that someone who they love but that looks down on gays will find out about them. They fear that their loved ones will not accept them.
They often escape to self-medicating these concerns and fears with drugs, they commit suicide at an alarming rate. This would all not happen if people were accepting of them as people.
They do not choose how they feel.

It is not about judging your beliefs, it is about realizing that you have no right to bring harm upon others by flaunting your beliefs, that add up to they are less than you.
You are entitled to whatever you want to believe. I would only hope that you are smart enough to realize those beliefs can have a devastating impact on another human being.

 

[Ring 6]

Im saying that it is church teaching (and has always been church teaching) that homosexual acts are always immoral regardless of who commits them....straight (for experimentation/pleasure) bi-sexual, homosexual orientation.

The church teaches that sex acts need to be "open" to procreation and performed in the context of marriage.

If I was a Patriot player in the lockerroom, I would have no hesitation in having Sam as my teammate. In fact, I would probably attempt to openly befriend him in the hopes that it might curtail any signs of unjust discrimination or acts of hatred.

So the answer is you pick and choose which rules must be followed based upon your own needs?

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Not making sense at all. Just because Jesus "might not have said it," isn't grounds to assume he may have made statements to that effect.

Why do you think you can get away with making things up? The word Paul uses, arsenokoitēs, specifically refers to pederasty which was prevalent in early Greece.

There is not a shred of historical evidence that anyone in the first century A.D. understood arsenokoitēs to refer to homosexuality in general.

You are confusing the church with the bible. Two very different things.

It's hypocritical to see the church as the "final authority" on the morality of homosexuality when it has had to pay out millions and millions in damages to thousands of victims of child sex abuse.

Actually, if you understood the nature of the church then you would understand that she is the final authority on doctrine through the office of the Magisterium. The actions (positive or negative) of the members of the church do not reflect on her authority to teach as this authority is a gift from God and not a by product of the morality of the individuals of the church.

The Magisterium is well documented in both the scriptures and the oral teachigs of the church.

The teaching on homosexuality is firmly grounded in the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium and has been taught since the time of the Apostles.

I never said that Jesus made statements about homosexuality. Im saying that if he didn't, it didn't matter. We know that the apostles were given the authority to speak in Jesus's name just as the bishops after them were given authority to interpret those teachings in the context of the present day. So basically, what Jesus said is not the totality of Revelation. The totality of Revelation extended into the lives of the Apostles...Paul being one of them.

Paul was talking about pederasty because thats how they saw homosexuality at that time. In fact, we don't even see a written account of the term "homosexual" until the 19th century. Clearly the church condemned homosexual acts and pederasty since the very beginning. I can show church father after church father condemning it in the strongest terms. I'm not sure how you can see these condemnations and come to any other conclusion. Can you show me any early Church fathers that accept homosexual acts as moral? You won't find a single one. What does that tell you?

I am not confusing the bible with the church. I understand both very well. I understand that the Bible is one part of Revelation along with the Oral teaching of the church and that the church has been given the gift of the Magisterium to interpret both.

 

[Ring 6]

Well I am not an R.C. so that let's me out of this one. But if we are talking one man sexually and engaging sex upon another, that is not only a trait that many religions, not just Christianity, adhere to as incorrect behavior, but in the natural world order of the majority of species as well.

The Christian Bible tells us marriage and love is a gift HE has given us, and between a man and a women. Sex is a gift for more than procreation in my religion, but man and woman is key.

I have said for the 100th time I am not judging the kid. Just his lifestyle choice as in my opinion, not what the Bible had in mind. That is what my brain says.

Andy you are not changing me nor I you. This has already gone further than it needs to.
DW Toys

My post you quoted wasn't even directed to you, so if you feel that way, why did you respond?

You are judging him in the same sentence you say you are not. And it isn't a choice.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Did you accidentally skip my post on Lot and the Angels?

No, I actually answered it a while back.