I'll admit i was wrong - Amendola didn't work

[Deus Irae]

But he's not on a one year contract. He was signed for the long term and therefore any decisions about Amendola warrant patience and thoughtful consideration, not just "he didn't have any catches in the Championship Game, cut him!".

That's what I said. Well, more accurately, I said that his contract makes the "cut him" stuff a non-starter.

If Amendola had signed only a one year deal, only the insane would want him back at his contract numbers. His contract just makes that a non-starter. The result is that we are left to hope that next year is his first injury free year

 

[Deus Irae]

Your assumption is that Welker stays. I'm not sure I buy that at all, and BB's comments after the AFCCG make me believe it even less. Absent Welker...well, pretend Welker simply was gone, and Amendola's acquisition makes sense.

My 'assumption' is that Welker should have stayed, and the Patriots could easily have made it happen by offering him the level of contract he deserved (and that should have been done years before, for that matter). I don't excuse BB for his occasional pettiness the way others do around here. He's a great coach, but he's got flaws, just like everyone else.

 

[primetime]

I still don't understand your position.
My main question is do you feel that since he played above his contract from 07-11 that he should have been paid more than his value as a 'reward' or 'makeup' or whatever you want to call it.
I'm not sure 'he ended up a Denver Bronco' really answers anything.

He should have been given a contract that kept him in New England. There's no makeup or reward there, the Patriots clearly undervalued his contributions going forward, and while we have only one year of evidence, I think that year would say that it was a mistake.

The fact that the Broncos signed him for a relative pittance notwithstanding, if the Patriots needed to pay him $6.5m or more to get him to stay with the team they should have done so. Now he is a Bronco, and now he is playing in the Super Bowl.

But that's not particularly salient to the Amendola debate. Even Edelman isn't quite salient - people keep saying that Amendola's rendered useless by Edelman's presence, but Edelman is not a Patriot come March.

 

[manxman2601]

That's a good point, but the thing that makes BB great, is that no matter salary/contract every player is treated the same. DA will be judged on performance only. That is why we are elite and not the Miami Dolphins

But BB will take into consideration the fact that Amendola was playing injured and factor that in to his performance. Now that could work both ways. As many on this board do, BB may think that his injuries are just further evidence of his injury proneness and cut him because of that. But if he was that concerned about the issue of Amendola's injury-proneness, why did he sign him long-term in the first place?

 

[Patsrock]

Pain while making movements is a limitation on mobility.

Groin pain can be debilitating. It also lingers like nothing else. I played at some of the highest levels of hockey as a goaltender and experienced substantial groin pain. It can really limit your mobility, and many NHL goaltenders have been forced into retirement by chronic groin problems - Dominik Hasek is perhaps the most famous case. This is an accumulation over years rather than an acute trauma like Amendola's, but Jonathan Quick missed nearly 8 weeks to a grade 2 groin sprain this winter. Amendola returned from a grade 2/3 sprain in 3 weeks.

Here's something about a rugby player who suffered a grade 3 sprain:



On the other hand, Miguel Cabrera played through the postseason this year with a grade 3 groin tear and then went under the knife after the season. I doubt it was comfortable, though, and baseball requires a lot less quick twitch movement.

The only other grade 3 tear my search pulled up was Mike Piazza in 2003, who missed 3 months.

In 2008 Matt Reis NE Revs goalie suffered same injury DA did. Rested for 2 weeks but was not the same again that year.

26 GA in 24 games before injury
after
22 GA in 12 games

The next year when healed he went

28 goals in 30 games

So yes a groin strain can be a real killer in performance.

 

[SalemPats]

He should have been given a contract that kept him in New England. There's no makeup or reward there, the Patriots clearly undervalued his contributions going forward, and while we have only one year of evidence, I think that year would say that it was a mistake.

The fact that the Broncos signed him for a relative pittance notwithstanding, if the Patriots needed to pay him $6.5m or more to get him to stay with the team they should have done so. Now he is a Bronco, and now he is playing in the Super Bowl.

But that's not particularly salient to the Amendola debate. Even Edelman isn't quite salient - people keep saying that Amendola's rendered useless by Edelman's presence, but Edelman is not a Patriot come March.

We can argue about Wes until the moon is blue. He's gone there's no changing that. As for Edelman, i think the Wes situation actually helps him in terms of getting re-signed. I think Brady will be more vocal and most importantly we need him for next year

 

[Ring 6]

He should have been given a contract that kept him in New England. There's no makeup or reward there, the Patriots clearly undervalued his contributions going forward, and while we have only one year of evidence, I think that year would say that it was a mistake.

The fact that the Broncos signed him for a relative pittance notwithstanding, if the Patriots needed to pay him $6.5m or more to get him to stay with the team they should have done so. Now he is a Bronco, and now he is playing in the Super Bowl.

But that's not particularly salient to the Amendola debate. Even Edelman isn't quite salient - people keep saying that Amendola's rendered useless by Edelman's presence, but Edelman is not a Patriot come March.

OK, at this point we will just have to disagree. I would not pay Welker or anyone 'whatever it takes'. I thought you were implying since he played for less than his 'value' from 07-11 that the team owed him more to make up for that. Thanks for clarifying.
I think the Patriots offered him more than the market rate in 2012, and we wouldn't take it, and then they offered him more than Denver in 2013 and he went to Denver. I don't think it is prudent to offer more than the highest offer a player can get.

 

[Brady6]

Empathy? Are you serious?

Would you expect the same performance from a car with a flat tire as you would with 4 good tires? Empathy has absolutely nothing to do with it, torn muscles do not have the same contractile abilities as those that are healthy. Amendola came back not fully healed because BB deemed that option as superior to putting him in IR, if you want to blame someone you should blame BB.

Listen I am a reasonable person and I do not come on this board to troll and be disruptive, for the most part it is never an issue except when it relates to Danny Amendola, in fact outside of maybe a few posts over Blount or McDaniels I don’t think I have ever had a heated discussion over anything other than Danny Amendola.

I am not sure why this is the case, it could be one of these reasons:

1. Amendola has local ties and there is a personal connection between some posters and Amendola or people tied to him.
2. Amendola was the replacement for Welker and it is hard for fans to accept that moving on from Welker did not end in the Patriots favor.
3. Amendola is a player we as fans can align with because he is not a freak talent or a 6’5 300 lb. man so we feel compelled to defend him.
4. Amendola is a Patriots and some fans feel that any negativity stated about anything that is tied to the Patriots is a horrible thing and it is their duty to defend the team, players, coaches, etc. from anything whether or not the criticism is merited.
5. A reason I did not list.

Whatever the reason is I don’t really have any interest in discussing things with people who cannot have a reasonable and objective outlook about the Amendola situation, it is exhausting and frankly I have no interest in having people take shots at me on here like I am this horrible person because I did not think the 28 year old, multi-millionaire, with an NFL physique and living by all intents and purposes a dream life pulled in enough passes this season. It is ridiculous actually you’re acting like Amendola would defend you if someone said you weren’t meeting expectations at work “Snake Eyes had a headache that day what do you expect?” We all have adversity in our lives and the fact that you or anyone else expects a NFL player to be 100% in order to perform is unrealistic, and that is just a fact. Amendola like most NFL players suffered an injury and it nagged him throughout the season, which is not this anomaly in the NFL that you’re trying to make it sound like.

As far as Amendola having surgery in week 1 that from what I understand was never even discussed, every report indicated that Amendola did by tearing the muscle completely exactly what the surgical procedure would have done, he was quoted on the 25th of September saying he was near 100% and reports indicated in the past week that he is not having surgery in the offseason. You, Ivan, Prime and some of the others like Amendola and you want to believe he is this great player so you’ve drilled into your own minds that he suffered this catastrophic injury because if you did not you’d have to face the reality that maybe just maybe Amendola is what he is and what we saw, I would even offer the possibility that he is marginally better when in better health but he is not, I repeat not a $6 million a year player (or $4.5 million cap hit; however you feel like looking at it).

I do have a question for those who are high on Amendola – what was it that was going to make Danny who entered the league in 2008 and compiled 196 catches, 1726 yards, 8.8 yard per catch, and 7 touchdowns during that period this amazing player? Personally I see a player with the lowest YPC average of any receiver with 150+ catches in the last 20 years and less than 2 touchdowns per season, which to me doesn’t scream STUD it screams mediocre and worth maybe $2 million per season.

Also if he was the next Welker I cannot see why Jeff Fisher would just let him walk out of St Louis, Fisher is a very good coach and he makes sound personnel decisions, he knew when to walk away from players like Haynesworth, Young, Vanden Bosch, Bullock and others over the years in Tennessee and then in St Louis he let Jackson, Amendola, Gibson, Lloyd, Alexander, Salas, Chamberlain and others walk away and none of them turned out to be a big loss.

 

[manxman2601]

Listen I am a reasonable person and I do not come on this board to troll and be disruptive, for the most part it is never an issue except when it relates to Danny Amendola, in fact outside of maybe a few posts over Blount or McDaniels I don’t think I have ever had a heated discussion over anything other than Danny Amendola.

I am not sure why this is the case, it could be one of these reasons:

1. Amendola has local ties and there is a personal connection between some posters and Amendola or people tied to him.
2. Amendola was the replacement for Welker and it is hard for fans to accept that moving on from Welker did not end in the Patriots favor.
3. Amendola is a player we as fans can align with because he is not a freak talent or a 6’5 300 lb. man so we feel compelled to defend him.
4. Amendola is a Patriots and some fans feel that any negativity stated about anything that is tied to the Patriots is a horrible thing and it is their duty to defend the team, players, coaches, etc. from anything whether or not the criticism is merited.
5. A reason I did not list.

Whatever the reason is I don’t really have any interest in discussing things with people who cannot have a reasonable and objective outlook about the Amendola situation, it is exhausting and frankly I have no interest in having people take shots at me on here like I am this horrible person because I did not think the 28 year old, multi-millionaire, with an NFL physique and living by all intents and purposes a dream life pulled in enough passes this season. It is ridiculous actually you’re acting like Amendola would defend you if someone said you weren’t meeting expectations at work “Snake Eyes had a headache that day what do you expect?” We all have adversity in our lives and the fact that you or anyone else expects a NFL player to be 100% in order to perform is unrealistic, and that is just a fact. Amendola like most NFL players suffered an injury and it nagged him throughout the season, which is not this anomaly in the NFL that you’re trying to make it sound like.

As far as Amendola having surgery in week 1 that from what I understand was never even discussed, every report indicated that Amendola did by tearing the muscle completely exactly what the surgical procedure would have done, he was quoted on the 25th of September saying he was near 100% and reports indicated in the past week that he is not having surgery in the offseason. You, Ivan, Prime and some of the others like Amendola and you want to believe he is this great player so you’ve drilled into your own minds that he suffered this catastrophic injury because if you did not you’d have to face the reality that maybe just maybe Amendola is what he is and what we saw, I would even offer the possibility that he is marginally better when in better health but he is not, I repeat not a $6 million a year player (or $4.5 million cap hit; however you feel like looking at it).

I do have a question for those who are high on Amendola – what was it that was going to make Danny who entered the league in 2008 and compiled 196 catches, 1726 yards, 8.8 yard per catch, and 7 touchdowns during that period this amazing player? Personally I see a player with the lowest YPC average of any receiver with 150+ catches in the last 20 years and less than 2 touchdowns per season, which to me doesn’t scream STUD it screams mediocre and worth maybe $2 million per season.

Also if he was the next Welker I cannot see why Jeff Fisher would just let him walk out of St Louis, Fisher is a very good coach and he makes sound personnel decisions, he knew when to walk away from players like Haynesworth, Young, Vanden Bosch, Bullock and others over the years in Tennessee and then in St Louis he let Jackson, Amendola, Gibson, Lloyd, Alexander, Salas, Chamberlain and others walk away and none of them turned out to be a big loss.

your ability to build straw men is why I have a continuing problem with your posts. For example:

1. Amendola has local ties and there is a personal connection between some posters and Amendola or people tied to him.
2. Amendola was the replacement for Welker and it is hard for fans to accept that moving on from Welker did not end in the Patriots favor.
3. Amendola is a player we as fans can align with because he is not a freak talent or a 6’5 300 lb. man so we feel compelled to defend him.
4. Amendola is a Patriots and some fans feel that any negativity stated about anything that is tied to the Patriots is a horrible thing and it is their duty to defend the team, players, coaches, etc. from anything whether or not the criticism is merited.

Why does it have to be any of these? You are projecting ulterior motives onto something that is purely "let's give him a chance". Oh and by the way it's not "because he's white" either.

I do have a question for those who are high on Amendola – what was it that was going to make Danny who entered the league in 2008 and compiled 196 catches, 1726 yards, 8.8 yard per catch, and 7 touchdowns during that period this amazing player?

Name one of us who think Amendola should be given more of a chance that has called Amendola "an amazing player" or anything like that. Please.

Also if he was the next Welker I cannot see why Jeff Fisher would just let him walk out of St Louis, Fisher is a very good coach and he makes sound personnel decisions,

I don't see what this has to do with anything. Quality non-QBs hit free agency all the time. Oh, and Fisher drafted Tavon Austin the same year. Maybe, just maybe, he had a plan.

which is not this anomaly in the NFL that you’re trying to make it sound like.

Again, has anyone ever said that this situation is unique to Amendola? All that's been said is that it's an explanation for his under performance. Nothing more.

Stop building straw men. Stop making stuff up. Stop trying to make out as though the only reason to like Amendola because we're too stupid to evaluate him as a football player. And then, just maybe you won't get into these "heated discussions".

 

[primetime]

I like the progression of the argument here.

I've never had a groin injury, they're not that debilitating right? -> Actually they are quite debilitating, here are some examples of players that had to have surgery (not just the release procedure which cuts away the tendon but results in massive loss of strength, but a repair of the adductor)/played worse/whatever and articles from peer-reviewed medical journals -> But every player in the NFL is always injured, it's no excuse, you must be Amendola's brother

I'm beginning to think we're being trolled. If so, Brady6, bravo.

 

[manxman2601]

I like the progression of the argument here.

I've never had a groin injury, they're not that debilitating right? -> Actually they are quite debilitating, here are some examples of players that had to have surgery (not just the release procedure which cuts away the tendon but results in massive loss of strength, but a repair of the adductor)/played worse/whatever and articles from peer-reviewed medical journals -> But every player in the NFL is always injured, it's no excuse, you must be Amendola's brother

I'm beginning to think we're being trolled. If so, Brady6, bravo.

He asked me if I knew Amendola personally as though that could be the only reason why I was pro-Amendola so you're not too far off.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Listen I am a reasonable person and I do not come on this board to troll and be disruptive, for the most part it is never an issue except when it relates to Danny Amendola, in fact outside of maybe a few posts over Blount or McDaniels I don’t think I have ever had a heated discussion over anything other than Danny Amendola.

I am not sure why this is the case, it could be one of these reasons:

1. Amendola has local ties and there is a personal connection between some posters and Amendola or people tied to him.
2. Amendola was the replacement for Welker and it is hard for fans to accept that moving on from Welker did not end in the Patriots favor.
3. Amendola is a player we as fans can align with because he is not a freak talent or a 6’5 300 lb. man so we feel compelled to defend him.
4. Amendola is a Patriots and some fans feel that any negativity stated about anything that is tied to the Patriots is a horrible thing and it is their duty to defend the team, players, coaches, etc. from anything whether or not the criticism is merited.
5. A reason I did not list.

Whatever the reason is I don’t really have any interest in discussing things with people who cannot have a reasonable and objective outlook about the Amendola situation, it is exhausting and frankly I have no interest in having people take shots at me on here like I am this horrible person because I did not think the 28 year old, multi-millionaire, with an NFL physique and living by all intents and purposes a dream life pulled in enough passes this season. It is ridiculous actually you’re acting like Amendola would defend you if someone said you weren’t meeting expectations at work “Snake Eyes had a headache that day what do you expect?” We all have adversity in our lives and the fact that you or anyone else expects a NFL player to be 100% in order to perform is unrealistic, and that is just a fact. Amendola like most NFL players suffered an injury and it nagged him throughout the season, which is not this anomaly in the NFL that you’re trying to make it sound like.

As far as Amendola having surgery in week 1 that from what I understand was never even discussed, every report indicated that Amendola did by tearing the muscle completely exactly what the surgical procedure would have done, he was quoted on the 25th of September saying he was near 100% and reports indicated in the past week that he is not having surgery in the offseason. You, Ivan, Prime and some of the others like Amendola and you want to believe he is this great player so you’ve drilled into your own minds that he suffered this catastrophic injury because if you did not you’d have to face the reality that maybe just maybe Amendola is what he is and what we saw, I would even offer the possibility that he is marginally better when in better health but he is not, I repeat not a $6 million a year player (or $4.5 million cap hit; however you feel like looking at it).

I do have a question for those who are high on Amendola – what was it that was going to make Danny who entered the league in 2008 and compiled 196 catches, 1726 yards, 8.8 yard per catch, and 7 touchdowns during that period this amazing player? Personally I see a player with the lowest YPC average of any receiver with 150+ catches in the last 20 years and less than 2 touchdowns per season, which to me doesn’t scream STUD it screams mediocre and worth maybe $2 million per season.

Also if he was the next Welker I cannot see why Jeff Fisher would just let him walk out of St Louis, Fisher is a very good coach and he makes sound personnel decisions, he knew when to walk away from players like Haynesworth, Young, Vanden Bosch, Bullock and others over the years in Tennessee and then in St Louis he let Jackson, Amendola, Gibson, Lloyd, Alexander, Salas, Chamberlain and others walk away and none of them turned out to be a big loss.

I’d actually be VERY interested to hear more about #5,

So, a few thoughts:


- When did I say he was a great player? Please don’t confuse me with others, I’m MUCH more handsome than they are!

- I don’t think anyone has claimed you’re a horrible person because of your opinion, just that your expectations are off base.

- All injuries are not equal, for some injuries you can work through it but for others they’re going to have a significant impact. I know from experience that a groin pull can be NASTY, I had one that took me months to feel normal again, and I’m not a professional athlete expected to beat out world-class competition.

- The cost of a free agent isn’t determined by stats, it’s determined by the market. If we signed Welker instead of Amendola it’s VERY possible that Denver gives him the deal that they gave to Welker. We weren’t going to get Amendola for $2 million. Unless we were willing to offer Welker substantially more than Denver I don’t think he wanted to stay here, I think he had his fill of NE.

- Just because Amendola said he was near 100% doesn’t mean that’s the case, NE players always downplay their injuries. TFB said his injury before SB42 ‘was nothing’ and ‘didn’t affect’ his game but the Strahan said there was a very clear difference. There’s something of a code in many football clubs that you don’t talk about injuries because it’s look at as making an excuse.

 

[PatsChamp88]

 

[Sciz]

I'm beginning to think we're being trolled. If so, Brady6, bravo.

Not trolled, just something else that I'm probably not allowed to call him.

 

[Brady6]

He asked me if I knew Amendola personally as though that could be the only reason why I was pro-Amendola so you're not too far off.

You know I went out of my way to speak highly of you in the thread Ian opened pertaining to the site survey, I recommended you as someone who could be an excellent draft guru for this site and have a blog the way Miguel handles the cap. I did that with the thinking that you could have a conversation about a player without resorting to personal blows.

I am not trolling, I have a reasonable view on the Amendola situation built on performance, the reports on the magnitude of his injury and his career historically. You and the others are the one suggesting we give a player entering his 7th season as pro a chance to do something (100+ catches and 1000+ yards) he has never come close to in his previous 6 years in the NFL.

I asked if you knew him personally because I was hoping you'd say yes because that would at least be a reasonable explanation for what I would quite frankly consider to be an idiotic expectation.

Posters can tell me all day Amendola is going to have a better season in 2014 and finish with 80-85 catches, 800-900 yards and 3-4 touchdowns and I will like their posts but if you're going to suggest that you think he is going to come out and give this team a Welker like year of 120 catches and 1200 yards I'm going to first try and explain that through reason like he knows him or he has a friend that knows him before I just say "hey you're not that bright or educated about football because what you're suggesting has the likelihood of Manning being named People's sexiest man alive".

 

[manxman2601]

You know I went out of my way to speak highly of you in the thread Ian opened pertaining to the site survey, I recommended you as someone who could be an excellent draft guru for this site and have a blog the way Miguel handles the cap. I did that with the thinking that you could have a conversation about a player without resorting to personal blows.

I am not trolling, I have a reasonable view on the Amendola situation built on performance, the reports on the magnitude of his injury and his career historically. You and the others are the one suggesting we give a player entering his 7th season as pro a chance to do something (100+ catches and 1000+ yards) he has never come close to in his previous 6 years in the NFL.

I asked if you knew him personally because I was hoping you'd say yes because that would at least be a reasonable explanation for what I would quite frankly consider to be an idiotic expectation.

Posters can tell me all day Amendola is going to have a better season in 2014 and finish with 80-85 catches, 800-900 yards and 3-4 touchdowns and I will like their posts but if you're going to suggest that you think he is going to come out and give this team a Welker like year of 120 catches and 1200 yards I'm going to first try and explain that through reason like he knows him or he has a friend that knows him before I just say "hey you're not that bright or educated about football because what you're suggesting has the likelihood of Manning being named People's sexiest man alive".

Actually I haven't seen that. If so, then I thank you. And you know that aside from this Amendola thing, I think highly of your posting too. I will endeavour to cut back on my reactionary posts. But you have got to stop assuming that I like Amendola for other than football reasons. And again, I've never said Amendola can be as good as Welker or that he will get 120 catches etc. I think he can push 100/1000 with a full season. Considering Edelman achieved that, I don't think that too ridiculous.

I'll offer the peace pipe so long as you stop trying to insult people who like Amendola.

 

[Brady6]

I like the progression of the argument here.

I've never had a groin injury, they're not that debilitating right? -> Actually they are quite debilitating, here are some examples of players that had to have surgery (not just the release procedure which cuts away the tendon but results in massive loss of strength, but a repair of the adductor)/played worse/whatever and articles from peer-reviewed medical journals -> But every player in the NFL is always injured, it's no excuse, you must be Amendola's brother

I'm beginning to think we're being trolled. If so, Brady6, bravo.

Danny Amendola stated on 9/25/13 that he was close to 100%. Apparently you know more about his groin than he does...

Stop with the trolling nonsense because only one of us is on here posting information that is false about surgeries and trips to injured reserve that were never reported by the team or the player. In case you didn't know the definition of a troll is someone who posts false information in order to get a reaction, everything I've posted is factual information accompanied with a link or presented as my opinion, you on the other hand post misinformation without any links or reference points to confirm it and you post your opinions as if they're actualities. You seem to fit the criteria for a troll much more than I do.

 

[Brady6]

Actually I haven't seen that. If so, then I thank you. And you know that aside from this Amendola thing, I think highly of your posting too. I will endeavour to cut back on my reactionary posts. But you have got to stop assuming that I like Amendola for other than football reasons. And again, I've never said Amendola can be as good as Welker or that he will get 120 catches etc. I think he can push 100/1000 with a full season. Considering Edelman achieved that, I don't think that too ridiculous.



I'll offer the peace pipe so long as you stop trying to insult people who like Amendola.

Fair enough. For the record I actually like Amendola my issue is more centered around the expectations people have for him and my concerns about his cap hit, the cap hit is something most years I could careless about if we were overpaying but the Hernandez hit puts us in an unfortunate situation.

 

[manxman2601]

Fair enough. For the record I actually like Amendola my issue is more centered around the expectations people have for him and my concerns about his cap hit, the cap hit is something most years I could careless about if we were overpaying but the Hernandez hit puts us in an unfortunate situation.

I think you are over-estimating the expectations people have for Amendola. I think we all knew he had an injury history and I don't think anyone thought he would be the next Welker. In fact it's probably the anti-Amendola crowd who thought that and have had their expectations battered. I think those of us who are supportive of Amendola have very cautious expectations because all we are doing is being cautious about making a snap judgement about him.

When will we see you in the draft forum?

 

[primetime]

Danny Amendola stated on 9/25/13 that he was close to 100%. Apparently you know more about his groin than he does...

You're right, I give up. Patriots players are well-known for being open and honest about their injury status with the media and the data that suggests Amendola is a low outlier in his quick return from an injury that forced others to have surgery to repair the groin like Miguel Cabrera are, in fact, misleading or outright lies despite the fact that they occurred and/or were published in peer-reviewed journals. You got me, Brady6. I'm trolling you.