It Still Hasn't Sunk In

[supafly]

In other words Brady played the second half at the level that would add up to a full season of 5000 yards and 32 TDs.
Can we please stop talking like we can't throw the ball?

We also had Rob Gronkowski in 5/8 of those games for the second half of the season.

A much more appropriate stat showing would be during games 14, 15, and 16, but even that wouldn't show much as our specific gameplan was changed up a bit in order to be able to run more.

At this specific point, the concern is that we're lacking outside threats, along with our best receiving target in Gronk. If a guy like Dobson were able to possibly go (and produce....) it could go a long way towards proving our passing game just as much of a threat. In the meantime, it'll be relying on Edelman and Amendola. I think it's pretty reasonable to have concerns in the passing game, but hopefully those concerns prove to be nothing more than being a worry wart.

 

[Ring 6]

We also had Rob Gronkowski in 5/8 of those games for the second half of the season.

Really 4 of 8 but I dont see how that is relevant.

A much more appropriate stat showing would be during games 14, 15, and 16, but even that wouldn't show much as our specific gameplan was changed up a bit in order to be able to run more.

The argument was that we planned to be a running team in the offseason.
Weather and opponent probably have more to do with games 14-16 than anything else.

At this specific point, the concern is that we're lacking outside threats, along with our best receiving target in Gronk. If a guy like Dobson were able to possibly go (and produce....) it could go a long way towards proving our passing game just as much of a threat. In the meantime, it'll be relying on Edelman and Amendola. I think it's pretty reasonable to have concerns in the passing game, but hopefully those concerns prove to be nothing more than being a worry wart.

That wasnt what this discussion was about.

 

[ATippett56]

The patriots easily won a playoff game against a team against a top team with Brady under 200 yards almost by design, with ZERO passes to a WR (all catches were by slot receivers, TE's and running backs). And, the patriots had six rushing touchdowns.

By design? Based upon the injuries on the roster, this seems more like the contingency plan. As for Edelman, he is more than a slot receiver.

The difference maker in the game was the run blocking: by the OL, the TE's and by our FB. Yes, Hooman and Develin were critical. Weren't we told at the beginning of the season that we didn't need a fullback, certainly not if we have a good blocking end.

Easy tiger. The New England Patriots ran all over the 2013 Indianapolis Colts defense not the 2000 Baltimore Ravens defense. Let's see if this type of performance is replicable against the 2013 Denver Broncos defense let alone in the Super Bowl against either the Seahawks or the 49ers.

Belichick made a decision at the beginning of the year. He would go without a #1 receiver.
Some argue that he didn't even have a player who could be a #2 receiver on other teams.
We all expected the passing game to develop as the season developed. Well, Belichick had a Plan B, and we saw it last weekend.

Belichick's plan subsequent to the 2013 NFL Draft was to have Hernandez and Gronkowski to be the focal point of the pass offense with Amendola replacing Welker. Either Gronkowski or Hernandez was to be the #1 receiver while the other the #2 receiver. One of the rookie wide receivers selected in the 2013 NFL Draft was to replace Lloyd, Branch, Stallworth.

To be succinct, this season has been Bill Belichick's best coaching effort to date. Take into account the Aaron Hernandez fiasco, all the injuries to key personnel on both sides of the football, Bill Belichick has maximized the remaining personnel to the best of their abilities.

 

[supafly]

Sorry, I missed your point.

I think that it is indeed acceptable to have strong running game, with a top blocking TE and a fullback, and at least one player like Blount who can pound the ball.

I think that we should by design be a strong running team. That is what is needed to be balanced.

As we spend more time, starting in mid-February, to look to next year, we will need to decide how important a strong run defense is. After all, as always, we have resource issues, and also roster decisions.

Josh kept a strong blocking TE and a fullback on the team by design. He brought in a potential Corey Dillion, even though we already had Ridley, Vereen and Blount on the squad.
I hope we do the same next year.

I am basically in agreement with your thoughts, aside from the thinking that we shouldn't add another reasonable threat/option at the position of WR. That is our only difference. While it's a fine assumption to think that one of our 2nd year WRs like Dobson/Boyce can step up nicely and become our new downfield threat, I would like to see the addition or replacement of Thompkins. While he may be a fine depth receiver, and I agree that our depth 1-6 needed to get younger, more physical, etc--I think we have a bit of a glaring weakness at the specific spot.

Most of us would like a proper balance of 55/45 passing, or something even a bit less at 52/48 (possibly in between the two would be the best solution). I still think we're a team that revolves around one of its best strengths, and that is obviously Brady at QB, and our ability to successfully throw at will. I do agree with your thinking that it could help to make us more physical, give the team more balance, and even help to prolong Brady's career. I just don't believe that we can get by another year with these glaring weaknesses at the position of WR, although it's fair to assume that Gronk may be healthy just the same. That would go a long way, obviously.

Through the first 1/2 of this season, Brady had attempted more passes than any other point of his career, so obviously they didn't go into this season with the thinking that they'd be switching things up as much as they ended up being forced to do due to our lack of receiving talent once Gronk and Dobson both went down.

 

[supafly]

Really 4 of 8 but I dont see how that is relevant.

He went down late in the 3rd quarter of the CLE game. So, aside from basically one quarter, he played in 5 of their last 8 games.

You posted stats about our effectiveness in the pass game during the 2nd half of the season, by projecting Brady's stats over 5,000 yds along with 32 TD's.

It's kind of hard to take these projections, and really--the overall point seriously when we still had our leading pass catcher in 5 of those last 8 games. That doesn't have anything to do with anything about our passing offense being as effective as the Denver Broncos, when we're about 100% different at the moment.

Your comments that I responded to were about our passing effectiveness, so I'm having a hard time understanding why this "isn't relevant," or how suddenly, "the discussion isn't about this?" My comments were in direct response to yours.

That wasnt what this discussion was about.

It was exactly what the discussion was about when you posted the stats about our passing offense in the 2nd half of the season when you made the statement/question "can we please stop acting like the team cannot pass." You're the one who brought it up. I responded by saying that we still had our biggest weapon playing in the last 5/8 games (or 4.75/8), so it's kind of hard to take all of this "effective pass offense" talk quite on the same level as you're suggesting.

The concern is that we are a different offense without Gronkowski, so that's exactly why people don't think that we're as much of a threat. After that injury happened, the 2 rookies then went down in Dobson and Thompkins--either of which were very effective to begin with lately anyway.

The point is that we're not the same passing offense anymore...therefore, it's understandable to have concerns. Bringing up stats about how we're just effective as Denver is wasn't really telling the whole truth, and I'm sure you understand the concerns, whether you agree with them or not. I'm not trying to start a beef with you, and I get it that you firmly believe in the passing offense due to some of the success they've still had. That is certainly reasonable. I am simply attempting to explain why I don't believe it's unreasonable for those who are questioning the current effectiveness, nothing more. As I mentioned before, hopefully it all proves to be nothing more than "over worrying."

 

[ATippett56]

For me, it would be great to re-sign the running game and our number one receiver (Blount, Wendell, Hooman and Edelman) and see how the 2nd year receivers develop. Our offense could be awesome with NO star downfield threat.

NO star downfield threat?

Josh Boyce ran a 4.38s 40 yard dash at the NFL Scouting Combine.

*Josh Boyce*|*TCU,*WR*:*2013 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

With that type of speed, I would surmise that Josh Boyce be utilized exactly as a downfield threat.

 

[supafly]

NO star downfield threat?

Josh Boyce ran a 4.38s 40 yard dash at the NFL Scouting Combine.

*Josh Boyce*|*TCU,*WR*:*2013 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

With that type of speed, I would surmise that Josh Boyce be utilized exactly as a downfield threat.

I think it's more than reasonable to assume that one/both Dobson or Boyce can make a pretty nice 2nd year leap.

I'd like to see either Edelman or another free agent (Sanders or your personal preference) signed, to help continue as decent passing offense moving forward.

It obviously depends on what your opinion or personal preference is, but I think we need to try and stay status quo with Edelman, while even improving on Thompkins' role.

The thought of keeping the physicality and run game going is obviously agreed upon by all. We could look to do that with a pick or two for the OL, and the hope to retain Blount/replace him depending upon specific cost.

 

[ATippett56]

I'd like to see either Edelman or another free agent (Sanders or your personal preference) signed, to help continue as decent passing offense moving forward.

First I disagree on the priorities. Aqib Talib should be the number one priority since he has become the ultimate chess piece on the defensive side of the football and is the only big cornerback on the roster that can match against opposing offenses tall physical number one wide receivers.

The New England Patriots passing offense should be fine next season with Gronkowski, Amendola, Dobson, Boyce, Thompkins (not as high on as the other two rookies), 2014 NFL Draft selections.

Second, if the New England Patriots do not re-sign Julian Edelman, I would rather venture in the 2014 NFL Draft for a replacement since the wide receiver position is loaded this year especially with a slew of underclassmen declaring.

As for Blount, market conditions may decide whether he will be back with the New England Patriots.

 

[supafly]

First I disagree on the priorities. Aqib Talib should be the number one priority since he has become the ultimate chess piece on the defensive side of the football and is the only big cornerback on the roster that can match against opposing offenses tall physical number one wide receivers.

My first overall priority isn't to sign Edelman. I'm just speaking in terms of the offense, since that's what we were discussing. You may not remember, but we spoke in another thread last night and I had the priorities as:

--Talib, Edelman, Blount, Fletcher (although I could understand flipping out Fletcher and Blount, depending upon how Belichick sees things. I would definitely like to see Fletcher retained myself).

The New England Patriots passing offense should be fine next season with Gronkowski, Amendola, Dobson, Boyce, Thompkins (not as high on as the other two rookies), 2014 NFL Draft selections.

Second, if the New England Patriots do not re-sign Julian Edelman, I would rather venture in the 2014 NFL Draft for a replacement since the wide receiver position is loaded this year especially with a slew of underclassmen declaring.

If we lose Edelman, I definitely would prefer to see another more experienced option brought in. That could be Sanders, James Jones, etc.

I'm not as high on the thought of drafting another WR as you are.

 

[VJCPatriot]

By the way Edelman and Amendola are WRs. They caught passes mostly from WR positions, not the slot.

I want to re-emphasize this point. People get married to the preconception that the Patriots only have slot wide receivers. It's not true. Yes these guys do at times line up in the slot but they also have the speed to make plays downfield.

Even though Brady had a conservative passing day, he still hit some big plays downfield, taking advantage of play-action and our dominant run game.

What is interesting about New England's rushing attack is now it is going to force Denver's Defensive Coordinator to account for it. As long as the Pats can get the run going, they open up a LOT of options in their passing game.

It is refreshing to see the Pats dictate to the defense with a smash mouth attitude of - we're gonna run it on you, you know we will, how are you going to stop us? And the best thing about that is not only will it take precious possession time away from Manning, but it really gets the offensive line revved up and involved in the game.

By design? Based upon the injuries on the roster, this seems more like the contingency plan. As for Edelman, he is more than a slot receiver.

I would agree with the sentiment that the Patriots roster with the idea of strengthening the running game was built by design.

2011, the Patriots expend two high draft choices on Shane Vereen and Stevan Ridley. They also draft Solder their current LT in round 1 and Cannon their current RT in round 5.
2012, believing Ridley is ready, the Patriots let BJGE walk to the Bengals. But they acquire Bolden as a UDFA and Jeff Demps as a UDFA. They also acquire Michael Hoomanawanui as a backup TE/FB.
2013, For some reason James Develin makes the team even though he's a fullback and the Patriots haven't kept a fulltime fullback on their roster in years. Later in the year Pats trade a 7th round pick and Demps to Tampa Bay for Blount.

If you observe the moves the Pats made over the past 3 years, you can spot a conscious pattern of addressing the run and bringing it up to par with the pass. I think BB realized that postseason success required a stronger more balanced offense and deliberately made the moves to make it possible.

The rest is playoff history. Blount's 166 yards and 4 TDs sets a new Patriots playoff record and his 4 rushing touchdowns is the most in any regular or postseason game. The Patriots combined 6 rushing TDs is 1 shy of the NFL's all-time postseason record for rushing TDs.

Easy tiger. The New England Patriots ran all over the 2013 Indianapolis Colts defense not the 2000 Baltimore Ravens defense. Let's see if this type of performance is replicable against the 2013 Denver Broncos defense let alone in the Super Bowl against either the Seahawks or the 49ers.

A valid point, however the fact remains that having a potent rushing attack FORCES the other team's DC to adjust to the offense and opens up so many options for the passing game. Even if we only get 120+ yards against Denver on the ground instead of 240+, keeping that defense honest will prevent it from 'teeing up' on Brady and only helps our passing game. As for Seattle/San Fran, we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

 

[ATippett56]

If we lose Edelman, I definitely would prefer to see another more experienced option brought in. That could be Sanders, James Jones, etc.

I'm not as high on the thought of drafting another WR as you are.

Emmanuel Sanders is overrated and I'm glad the Steelers matched the offer. James Jones will be 30 years old in March and signing James Jones would be counter to Belichick's youth movement on offense as well as signing any unrestricted free agent wide receiver.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Over the last few years, passing has seemed to be the focus in order to score lots of points rather than running it. I've read quite a bit over the last few weeks about how DEN has that fantastic passing game (which it does) and how the Pats have turned to the running game the last few games to find success (which it has).

The interesting tidbit for me is that over the last 8 regular season games DEN has scored 263 points. The Pats in that same span - 265 points.

Hmmm, maybe passing the ball doesn't always equate to higher point totals. But I do understand however that points also include Defense and Special Teams scoring and not just offense but people seem to think this is a Pats versus Greatest Show on Turf type of season, but I don't think the gap in scoring punch today is as big as 2001

That is an interesting stat and startling observation...

 

[UK_Pat37]

I heard from someone (zolak?) that he was almost ready to go last week. I saw it posted on here somewhere. So maybe he will and can stomach some of the pain.

To be totally honest, it wouldn't amaze me if the Patriots were never even contemplating using him.

I think we knew well in advance we intended to run the ball and that with the weather the passing game wasn't going to be much of a factor. There was little or no point in risking our only deep threat in a game we didn't really need it. The one time we went deep was off of play action and with the success we were having, it was a gimme.

This weekend however I feel will be different. We may well be able to run on them, we will have to see, but they are a much better front seven than Indy and have the guys to stop us. We will need to go to the pass much more.