PFF: The Pats OL is damn good

[Harrisoned!]

PFF blows, and everyone understands that the Patriots have 3 OL who are quality players and 2OL who are not. PFF's garbage work doesn't help, or hinder, in that regard.

The problem that people here don't understand is that there isn't a single team in the NFL that trots out 5 OL that they trust. And despite their deficiencies, Wendell and Connolly are not awful. Peter Konz of the Falcons is awful. Jon Martin of the Dolphins is awful.

When you have two truly elite tackles and an upper eschelon left guard and then two C/C- players at center and RG, plus an elite coach (Scar), you are in the top decile of linemen.

Also, I just don't buy this "PFF is garbage because they hate Brady" crap - they are far from perfect and I don't think their point system is the right way to go about things, but I don't think they're wildly inaccurate. Maybe the Pats OL isn't 5th-best; there is a band of uncertainty - they could be 3rd or 10th. But they are absolutely among the top third in the NFL and that is PLENTY good enough to win a title with.

 

[jmt57]

I can't believe almost every major sports site has started citing PFF recently. Worst stats site of all time.

The problem is that sports fans (or more specifically, NFL fans) as a whole have this immense desire for games to be compartmentalized through statistics, to be able to logically predict outcomes and also to look back and a significant stat that is of such immense consequence that it makes the result clear cut and understandable and predictable.

I think this stems from how statistics can be applied to other sports, to make results more foreseeable. The problem is that individual stats don't translate nearly as well to the game of football as they do with other sports. Football is the ultimate team sport; other sports more closely resemble a series of individual matchups.

Over the years we have seen a sizable increase in the number of individual statistical categories in the game of baseball, and sports fans who follow baseball want (and expect) the same abundance of stats for the game of football. All those stats translate well in MLB because it's primarily a one-on-one game (pitcher vs batter), but the NFL is like an orchestra, with each player's individual performance so heavily dependent on the performance of others.

Fans don't recognize that failing and demand more individual stats; sites like PFF are simply fulfilling the most basic of economic clichés about supply and demand. the fact that the numbers are of dubious merit is secondary to fulfilling the public's desire for this type of information.

It's not all that dissimilar to how often we see fans apply baseball logic to football roster building (e.g., trade for Larry Fitzgerald!) that ignores the vast difference between contracts and the salary cap in the other sports, to the unique nature of the cap and contracts in the NFL.

Most football fans also follow other sports, and as a result some of that 'other sport' mentality bleeds over to the way that they view football. Because of that a site like PFF flourishes - despite their erroneous and inaccurate information.



While not perfect, a far better source of statistical information would be Football Outsiders. They realize the futility of individual statistical analysis of certain positions (e.g., center, guard and tackle) but instead compile information on entire units (offensive line). It's too bad that the members of the media that cite PFF do not instead rely on FO for the statistics that their followers enjoy reading and hearing.

 

[Archeryaddict12]

We have a great OL. But the problem is, when we face a elite dl, our OL gets manhandled at times. I think that's what also hurt us and led to the SB losses. We couldn't win in the trenches

 

[Harrisoned!]

We have a great OL. But the problem is, when we face a elite dl, our OL gets manhandled at times. I think that's what also hurt us and led to the SB losses. We couldn't win in the trenches

And the reality is that elite DL almost always beat elite OL. It's not just the Patriots who struggle so mightily. And really, would we even be having this conversation if two years ago Welker holds onto that catch in the Super Bowl? All of a sudden the OL would go from a constant topic of complaints by fans into a non-discussion.

 

[Deus Irae]

The problem that people here don't understand is that there isn't a single team in the NFL that trots out 5 OL that they trust. And despite their deficiencies, Wendell and Connolly are not awful. Peter Konz of the Falcons is awful. Jon Martin of the Dolphins is awful.

When you have two truly elite tackles and an upper eschelon left guard and then two C/C- players at center and RG, plus an elite coach (Scar), you are in the top decile of linemen.

Also, I just don't buy this "PFF is garbage because they hate Brady" crap - they are far from perfect and I don't think their point system is the right way to go about things, but I don't think they're wildly inaccurate. Maybe the Pats OL isn't 5th-best; there is a band of uncertainty - they could be 3rd or 10th. But they are absolutely among the top third in the NFL and that is PLENTY good enough to win a title with.

No, the problem is that PFF blows and you're citing it in a weak attempt to bolster your lousy argument.

• Brady's quick release has always aided the line's weakest links
• Brady needing to hold the ball longer is exposing the Wendell/Connolly duo, who are the weak links
• Connolly and Wendell are not starter quality players at their current positions but....
• Dante is such an excellent line coach that he makes non-starters capable of playing within the system until they reach the point of simply being overmatched
• Opponents know where the Patriots are weak and will continue to exploit that area

None of the above needs PFF's garbage to bolster it.

 

[SeymourTrophies]

The reality is, almost every line struggles mightily when they face elite interior rushers like Geno Atkins, JJ Watt, Ndamukong Suh, Justin Tuck of old, etc. etc. The Pats are not some anomaly in this respect, it's just doubly-tough for the Patriots because their QB can't slide out of the pocket and make plays on the run. If you are the Cowboys and let pressure up the middle, you can still make plays because you can roll protection and get Romo on the move. You simply can't do that with Brady.

Watt, for whatever reason, wasn't killing us as badly as he killed everyone else last year. We ran a lot of play fakes against the Texans on MNF, and their defense acted like they'd never seen that before. Watt did get some pressure in both games against Houston, but we had their number last year.

At any rate, you keep interior rushers at bay by keeping them honest and guessing whether or not you're running. Well, that and having interior linemen who can block.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Okay, another clear-cut stat to use is that the Patriots have allowed the 5th fewest sacks per pass attempt.

Here's another - until the Bengals game, Solder and Vollmer hadn't even allowed a HIT on Brady, let alone a sack.

They rank 7th per Football Outsiders on their Adjusted Line Yards calc, which tries to weed out rushing yards benefiting from long open field runs or getting hurt by short-yardage conversions.

They rank 15th in YPC and 11th in total yards rushing, despite a revolving door circus at RB.

And for what it's worth, PFF has pretty negatively graded both Wendell and Connolly this year. They've harped on them repeatedly for poor play in their reviews of the games. But just because two of your linemen are subpar doesn't mean the line as a whole isn't playing well - when your tackles and LG are playing as dominantly as they have to date, it creates plenty of positive plays by the line as a whole.

I think people need to go watch some other teams' OLs before they complain. Watch the Dolphins' OL with Clabo and Martin turning into bullfighters every weekend, and John Jerry getting blown up in the middle. Or check out the Giants line, who can't runblock to save their life and are only marginally better in pass protection.

I'd honestly hesitate to pick much more than 5 lines I'd rather have than the Patriots' unit. Detroit's has been great so far; Denver's has also been but we'll see if they hold up long-term without Clady. Houston is always good but part of that is their fantastic ZBS principles.

The reality is, almost every line struggles mightily when they face elite interior rushers like Geno Atkins, JJ Watt, Ndamukong Suh, Justin Tuck of old, etc. etc. The Pats are not some anomaly in this respect, it's just doubly-tough for the Patriots because their QB can't slide out of the pocket and make plays on the run. If you are the Cowboys and let pressure up the middle, you can still make plays because you can roll protection and get Romo on the move. You simply can't do that with Brady.

Agree on the issues at RG and C, and i agree the patriots OL is pretty good overall, what i disagree with is using PFF for anything other than comic relief. it may well be the most worthless site in all of sports.

 

[Huckleberry1]

The problem that people here don't understand is that there isn't a single team in the NFL that trots out 5 OL that they trust. And despite their deficiencies, Wendell and Connolly are not awful. Peter Konz of the Falcons is awful. Jon Martin of the Dolphins is awful.

When you have two truly elite tackles and an upper eschelon left guard and then two C/C- players at center and RG, plus an elite coach (Scar), you are in the top decile of linemen.

Also, I just don't buy this "PFF is garbage because they hate Brady" crap - they are far from perfect and I don't think their point system is the right way to go about things, but I don't think they're wildly inaccurate. Maybe the Pats OL isn't 5th-best; there is a band of uncertainty - they could be 3rd or 10th. But they are absolutely among the top third in the NFL and that is PLENTY good enough to win a title with.

PFF is the site that claimed that Kareem Mackenzie was the best player in football a few years ago, calling it worthless is giving it too much credit.

 

[Deus Irae]

And the reality is that elite DL almost always beat elite OL. It's not just the Patriots who struggle so mightily. And really, would we even be having this conversation if two years ago Welker holds onto that catch in the Super Bowl? All of a sudden the OL would go from a constant topic of complaints by fans into a non-discussion.

This is completely wrong.

 

[SeymourTrophies]

And the reality is that elite DL almost always beat elite OL. It's not just the Patriots who struggle so mightily. And really, would we even be having this conversation if two years ago Welker holds onto that catch in the Super Bowl? All of a sudden the OL would go from a constant topic of complaints by fans into a non-discussion.

XLVI wasn't even that bad of a thrashing in the trenches, certainly not to the scale of XLII. The Giants got some key pressures in the 2011 SB, and they destroyed us in the field position battle, but let's not beat that dead horse again.

The discussion really began last year when every loss was linked to a severe beating in the trenches.

 

[supafly]

Watt, for whatever reason, wasn't killing us as badly as he killed everyone else last year. We ran a lot of play fakes against the Texans on MNF, and their defense acted like they'd never seen that before. Watt did get some pressure in both games against Houston, but we had their number last year.

At any rate, you keep interior rushers at bay by keeping them honest and guessing whether or not you're running. Well, that and having interior linemen who can block.

And....getting rid of the ball very quickly. Brady was reported by some outlets last year to have the quickest release time in the NFL. That obviously contributed a lot to the success of the offensive line in situations like you are talking about.

This year, it's a whole new ballgame, and the quickest release time and one of the better offensive lines goes to Manning and Denver. I wonder what could have changed to allow him that luxury (while taking it away from Brady)? Hmmm.

 

[patsfan-1982]

And....getting rid of the ball very quickly. Brady was reported by some outlets last year to have the quickest release time in the NFL. That obviously contributed a lot to the success of the offensive line in situations like you are talking about.

This year, it's a whole new ballgame, and the quickest release time and one of the better offensive lines goes to Manning and Denver. I wonder what could have changed to allow him that luxury (while taking it away from Brady)? Hmmm.

I agree Welker and Woodhead were the OL's best friend's last year

 

[Huckleberry1]

And....getting rid of the ball very quickly. Brady was reported by some outlets last year to have the quickest release time in the NFL. That obviously contributed a lot to the success of the offensive line in situations like you are talking about.

This year, it's a whole new ballgame, and the quickest release time and one of the better offensive lines goes to Manning and Denver. I wonder what could have changed to allow him that luxury (while taking it away from Brady)? Hmmm.

I think it is confidence in his receivers being where they are sup[posed to be, period. Brady has made a career of understanding defenses and how they develop after the snap, and understanding where the holes will be and his receivers in relation to those holes. Regardless of the talent level of his receivers, big or small, fast or slow, he has always been able to trust most of them to be where he expects, and what has happened this season is that his receivers simply aren't where he expects them to be reliably and as a result he is putting balls where they aren't and locking onto guys because he doesn't feel he has the time or opportunity to scan the field and find the open guy. Losing Welker was a big problem because he was always open immediately and read defenses exactly as Brady knew he would. Amendola and edelman may reach that point as time goes on but overall the offense and brady's expectations for those around him has been as disjointed as we have seen during this era. I expect it to get better over time, especially if Amendola, Gronkowski, and Edelman are available the rest of the season, and then Vereen returns and Dobson develops as the downfield option, which I really do expect to happen as the season goes on.

They need to get healthy, stay healthy, and eventually the offense will return to form as one of the best offenses in football, and I am simply happy that they have been able to weather these times as successfully as they have. it isn't pretty but they are still winning, and if they get the offense back on track they could be very dangerous come play-off time.

 

[neuronet]

Overall, I think the respect this board gives our OL is pitiful, when in reality we have two Pro Bowl OTs (Solder playing like an All Pro) and three solid interior OL. The X factor is always Mankins, as when he is on his game he can dominate a run defense.

I think people here tend to shower them with praise. Except last week. When they didn't deserve it. Whether it was bad coaching or bad execution (or bad weather) it is impossible to tell, but watching our offense against the Bengals, especially our OLine, was like watching the Bad News Bears.

 

[Kontradiction]

I think it is confidence in his receivers being where they are sup[posed to be, period. Brady has made a career of understanding defenses and how they develop after the snap, and understanding where the holes will be and his receivers in relation to those holes. Regardless of the talent level of his receivers, big or small, fast or slow, he has always been able to trust most of them to be where he expects, and what has happened this season is that his receivers simply aren't where he expects them to be reliably and as a result he is putting balls where they aren't and locking onto guys because he doesn't feel he has the time or opportunity to scan the field and find the open guy. Losing Welker was a big problem because he was always open immediately and read defenses exactly as Brady knew he would. Amendola and edelman may reach that point as time goes on but overall the offense and brady's expectations for those around him has been as disjointed as we have seen during this era. I expect it to get better over time, especially if Amendola, Gronkowski, and Edelman are available the rest of the season, and then Vereen returns and Dobson develops as the downfield option, which I really do expect to happen as the season goes on.

They need to get healthy, stay healthy, and eventually the offense will return to form as one of the best offenses in football, and I am simply happy that they have been able to weather these times as successfully as they have. it isn't pretty but they are still winning, and if they get the offense back on track they could be very dangerous come play-off time.

Welker was where he was supposed to be quicker than any other receiver in the NFL or on this team in the Belichick era. That helped a ton.

:deadhorse:

 

[SeymourTrophies]

And....getting rid of the ball very quickly. Brady was reported by some outlets last year to have the quickest release time in the NFL. That obviously contributed a lot to the success of the offensive line in situations like you are talking about.

This year, it's a whole new ballgame, and the quickest release time and one of the better offensive lines goes to Manning and Denver. I wonder what could have changed to allow him that luxury (while taking it away from Brady)? Hmmm.

Well, part of Denver's success is that they haven't faced a front like what we're talking about. Also, Welker was on the team when we played Seattle and San Francisco (I'll give him a pass since the Edelman experiment was at full tilt against BAL and ARI); we still had issues with protection.

I know a lot of people want to be upset about Welker, but maybe, just maybe, BB would have hurried to get Welker back in if his horoscope, at any point in February, said one of your best receivers is a sociopath and a murderer. I can't fault BB for not having a crystal ball, and the Welker-Amendola straight swap carried risks on both sides.

 

[shmessy]

Tackles: Outstanding
Guards: Average to slightly better than average (the Left one is vastly overpaid)
Center: Alarm bells

 

[ATippett56]

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2013 OFFENSIVE LINES

 

[shmessy]

Well, looks like there will be a change at center this week (although, I'm sad to hear the reason):

Nick Underhill @Nick_Underhill
Ryan Wendell has a concussion.

 

[Kontradiction]

Well, looks like there will be a change at center this week (although, I'm sad to hear the reason):

Nick Underhill @Nick_Underhill
Ryan Wendell has a concussion.

Bad reason to have a change, but it's needed.