Tebow, Blount, Edelman

[situational_awareness]

WRT the "tight windows", he's threaded some nice passes, but nothing like what Brady and Rodgers can do. If he had to do it all game long with how he passed in college or even in Denver, it would be difficult.


WRT Manning, I went out and dug up this fantastic piece from ColdHardFootball facts concerning Tebow's passing ability in college and how he rates against some others.

Demo, I know you know I've already seen that CHFF article 10x already.

 

[Demosthenes]

Demo, I know you know I've already seen that CHFF article 10x already.

Only 10x ? Figured the number would have been higher. But anyways, it was posted for the benefit of others

 

[shmessy]

Quit calling me a troll and saying I lied. Is there a rule that if we give commentary on a player that we can't use a source. Bolgna. I lied about nothing. You asked for an answer on Julian and I gave it. I never claimed it was or wasn't from a source. No plagirism because I am not writing a term paper or anything of the sort.

You are on official warning. You copied a source without attribution and used it as your own words. That is stealing.

Cutting and pasting anothers person's work and claiming it as your own is not ok in ANYONE'S moral compass. Most importantly, it is clearly against the rules of this forum. You may cut and paste the work, but you must attribute.

Perhaps you are new to to internet posting, but stealing someone else's work as your own is immoral in almost every ethos (except certain gangs and Ron Borges). In the ethos you proselytize, you just broke #8.

You are new here and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you didn't realize it, so this is just a warning. If it occurs again, however, I'll have no choice but to give an infraction.

Thanks for understanding.

 

[supafly]

Why does it seem that Pats fans are down on Edelman? He seemed pretty talented to me last year. Or maybe I'm reading the pulse of this board wrong?

The issues are his injury concerns as he hasn't been able to complete an entire season now going into his 5th year, and also the fact that he just hasn't contributed too much as an actual outside receiver. I think the question is how he's run routes outside of 5-10 yds downfield, and how effective he has been playing in that role.

Edelman is a very good special teams weapon and offers some production in the slot, on bubble screens, and other gadget plays--basically he excels nicely in space. If they can manage to get him in space where he can make some shifty moves, he's definitely got the capability to pick up some nice YAC's on just about any play.

 

[Oinko]

Not making fun here just curious but is the idea of Tebow not playing at all and then returning to the field in the future something seen as the rebirth of Jesus in the among the spiritual football fans?

Probably not. Seems kind of sacrilegious.

The life lesson is you don't give up. You play the game until the clock runs out, and you keep lacing up the cleats until they tell you to go home. It's interesting to watch a guy that keeps getting told he can never play, and doesn't seem to hear it.

 

[Christiancat]

You are on official warning. You copied a source without attribution and used it as your own words. That is stealing.

Cutting and pasting anothers person's work and claiming it as your own is not ok in ANYONE'S moral compass. Most importantly, it is clearly against the rules of this forum. You may cut and paste the work, but you must attribute.

Perhaps you are new to to internet posting, but stealing someone else's work as your own is immoral in almost every ethos (except certain gangs and Ron Borges). In the ethos you proselytize, you just broke #8.

You are new here and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you didn't realize it, so this is just a warning. If it occurs again, however, I'll have no choice but to give an infraction.

Thanks for understanding.

I am sorry. From now on I will state my source if I copy info from another source.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

The issues are his injury concerns as he hasn't been able to complete an entire season now going into his 5th year, and also the fact that he just hasn't contributed too much as an actual outside receiver. I think the question is how he's run routes outside of 5-10 yds downfield, and how effective he has been playing in that role.

Edelman is a very good special teams weapon and offers some production in the slot, on bubble screens, and other gadget plays--basically he excels nicely in space. If they can manage to get him in space where he can make some shifty moves, he's definitely got the capability to pick up some nice YAC's on just about any play.

In 2009, there were times when Edelman was the second best pass-catcher on the field.

In 2010-2012, with GRONK and Hern-idiot, that was almost never the case.

 

[Kontradiction]

Call me strange, but I side with Belichick on this one:



And I don't disagree with your sentiment about him not being a pocket passer. That definitely isn't his game and is something that he needs to develop.


As for the book on Tebow, that chapter was written my Monty Kiffin at Tennessee.

That trash was being thrown around as well. For one, Belichick never said that. His preference is to field the best all around units possible. He stresses the importance of turnovers and red zone defense (which pretty much every defensive coach in the league does), but that doesn't mean that he doesn't care about yardage. The defense's inability to stop an offense in a timely manner, during the 2011 season, would eventually lead to the team's downfall. Let's forget, for a second, what Woody said about Belichick's preference and take a look at what Belichick DID as a response. He made tweaks knowing that the pass defense could have (and, unfortunately, would have) been the team's downfall in the playoffs. He replaced McCourty with Sterling Moore (who was actually better in press man, though nothing to write home about) and put McCourty back at safety so he could keep his eyes toward the play constantly. The result was allowing less yardage, thus improving field position for the offense. The Super Bowl was another story. The defense couldn't stop the Giants offense without them getting a few first downs in the process so that, when they did eventually punt, it would put our offense deep in it's own territory which forced Brady, without any deep threat to speak of and missing one of his top options, to regularly execute 80+ yard drives to score. The result was a loss.

That defense was awful. They tightened up in the red zone, but not without letting the opposing offense dominate T.O.P. and keep Brady off the field. Dan Orlovsky, the quarterback that once stepped out of bounds because he was that inept and cost his team a safety, put up a career day against that defense for God's sake. It was the second worst pass defense of all time up to that point, being bailed out only by Green Bay. So put that in perspective: Tim Tebow was absolutely humiliated by a defense that allowed Dan Orlovsky to have a career day.

 

[sb1]

That trash was being thrown around as well. For one, Belichick never said that. His preference is to field the best all around units possible. He stresses the importance of turnovers and red zone defense (which pretty much every defensive coach in the league does), but that doesn't mean that he doesn't care about yardage. The defense's inability to stop an offense in a timely manner, during the 2011 season, would eventually lead to the team's downfall. Let's forget, for a second, what Woody said about Belichick's preference and take a look at what Belichick DID as a response. He made tweaks knowing that the pass defense could have (and, unfortunately, would have) been the team's downfall in the playoffs. He replaced McCourty with Sterling Moore (who was actually better in press man, though nothing to write home about) and put McCourty back at safety so he could keep his eyes toward the play constantly. The result was allowing less yardage, thus improving field position for the offense. The Super Bowl was another story. The defense couldn't stop the Giants offense without them getting a few first downs in the process so that, when they did eventually punt, it would put our offense deep in it's own territory which forced Brady, without any deep threat to speak of and missing one of his top options, to regularly execute 80+ yard drives to score. The result was a loss.

That defense was awful. They tightened up in the red zone, but not without letting the opposing offense dominate T.O.P. and keep Brady off the field. Dan Orlovsky, the quarterback that once stepped out of bounds because he was that inept and cost his team a safety, put up a career day against that defense for God's sake. It was the second worst pass defense of all time up to that point, being bailed out only by Green Bay. So put that in perspective: Tim Tebow was absolutely humiliated by a defense that allowed Dan Orlovsky to have a career day.

Giving up 400+ yard passing games to both Chad Henne and Vince Young was quite an accomplishment too.

 

[Kontradiction]

Giving up 400+ yard passing games to both Chad Henne and Vince Young was quite an accomplishment too.

Exactly. How anybody can excuse that pass defense is beyond me, especially given the result yielded in the Super Bowl and the moves made in the secondary since. But he's a Tebow Only Fan, so he's looking for the silver lining in anything he can.

 

[situational_awareness]

So put that in perspective: Tim Tebow was absolutely humiliated by a defense that allowed Dan Orlovsky to have a career day.

Alright, stop... collaborate and listen...

What a terrible argument. There is some major extrapolation and psychological warfare going on in this post.

The fact that Dan Orlovsky had a career day against the Patriots has no bearing on how good or bad Tim Tebow is, based on a comparison between how he played against the Patriots.

Let me show you how this works...

The Pittsburgh Steelers had the #1 ranked passing defense in the NFL when Tebow and the Broncos faced them. They allowed an average of 171.9 passing yards per game. Tebow threw for 316 yards and was the only QB who threw for over 300 yards against the Steelers that year. Conclusion: Tebow is one of the best QBs in the league because he outperformed everyone against the Steelers. Not only that, he broke NFL records in that one game.

Most yards per completion in a playoff game: 31.6 against Pittsburgh in 2012.
Most 30+ yard passes in a playoff quarter
Fewest passes to 300+ yards in any NFL game
Only quarterback to throw three 50+ yard passes in a playoff game
Longest touchdown pass in NFL playoff history in overtime

Oh and a few Broncos records also...

Most passing yards in a playoff debut
Highest postseason rating

But even still that argument that he is great because of that one game makes little sense. One game is not enough to say, "Oh well this QB did good against this team, on this day, therefore, any QB who did worse against that team on another day is now worse than the QB who did better than him." Wut?

Now, I know what you will say... oh but the Steelers were injured... oh they had a bad gameplan... oh they didn't respect him and gave the game away! Ok, I don't agree, but if you say that then the same could be true about the Patriots and Orlovsky.

And no, this isn't a defense of Tebow. It's an argument against poor logic and reasoning. I'm sure people will take it as some Tebow fan can't take criticism of his boy. False. I criticize him and other players all the time... but I use reason, logic, and statistics... not emotions and how I "feel".

 

[sb1]

Exactly. How anybody can excuse that pass defense is beyond me, especially given the result yielded in the Super Bowl and the moves made in the secondary since. But he's a Tebow Only Fan, so he's looking for the silver lining in anything he can.

From one of my posts earlier in this topic: Stats for some "great" QB's against the 2011 Patriots defense...

Chad Henne: 30-49, 416 yards, 2 TD
Ryan Fitzpatrick (over 2 games): 56-86, 676 yards, 4 TD
Jason Campbell: 25-39, 344 yards, 1 TD
Dan Orlovsky: 30-37, 353 yards, 2 TD
Vince Young: 26-48, 400 yards, 1 TD
Rex Grossman: 19-32, 252 yards, 2 TD
Matt Moore: 16-32, 281 yards, 3 TD

Yup, truly a list of pro bowlers if I ever saw it.

And Tebow struggled against that same defense. If the kid could throw, he probably would have put up 400 as well.

 

[situational_awareness]

From one of my posts earlier in this topic: Stats for some "great" QB's against the 2011 Patriots defense...

Chad Henne: 30-49, 416 yards, 2 TD
Ryan Fitzpatrick (over 2 games): 56-86, 676 yards, 4 TD
Jason Campbell: 25-39, 344 yards, 1 TD
Dan Orlovsky: 30-37, 353 yards, 2 TD
Vince Young: 26-48, 400 yards, 1 TD
Rex Grossman: 19-32, 252 yards, 2 TD
Matt Moore: 16-32, 281 yards, 3 TD

Yup, truly a list of pro bowlers if I ever saw it.

And Tebow struggled against that same defense. If the kid could throw, he probably would have put up 400 as well.

You guys are really going to backslap each other over this logic? Really?

 

[sb1]

Alright, stop... collaborate and listen...

What a terrible argument. There is some major extrapolation and psychological warfare going on in this post.

The fact that Dan Orlovsky had a career day against the Patriots has no bearing on how good or bad Tim Tebow is, based on a comparison between how he played against the Patriots.

Let me show you how this works...

The Pittsburgh Steelers had the #1 ranked passing defense in the NFL when Tebow and the Broncos faced them. They allowed an average of 171.9 passing yards per game. Tebow threw for 316 yards and was the only QB who threw for over 300 yards against the Steelers that year. Conclusion: Tebow is one of the best QBs in the league because he outperformed everyone against the Steelers. Not only that, he broke NFL records in that one game.

Most yards per completion in a playoff game: 31.6 against Pittsburgh in 2012.
Most 30+ yard passes in a playoff quarter
Fewest passes to 300+ yards in any NFL game
Only quarterback to throw three 50+ yard passes in a playoff game
Longest touchdown pass in NFL playoff history in overtime

Oh and a few Broncos records also...

Most passing yards in a playoff debut
Highest postseason rating

But even still that argument that he is great because of that one game makes little sense. One game is not enough to say, "Oh well this QB did good against this team, on this day, therefore, any QB who did worse against that team on another day is now worse than the QB who did better than him." Wut?

Now, I know what you will say... oh but the Steelers were injured... oh they had a bad gameplan... oh they didn't respect him and gave the game away! Ok, I don't agree, but if you say that then the same could be true about the Patriots and Orlovsky.

And no, this isn't a defense of Tebow. It's an argument against poor logic and reasoning. I'm sure people will take it as some Tebow fan can't take criticism of his boy. False. I criticize him and other players all the time... but I use reason, logic, and statistics... not emotions and how I "feel".

I already demonstrated to you (or maybe it was another Tebow fan) that the Steelers' so called #1 defense was nothing but a paper tiger. They got that #1 ranking thanks in no small part to playing just 1 team ranked in the top 10 in pass offense and 8... count em...EIGHT games against the bottom 10 pass offenses in the NFL.

The Broncos beating that team, with a crippled Ben and a missing Ryan Clark is not nearly as impressive as you would like to think it is. And TT and his team got waxed against a lousy Pats D so that "accomplishment" is irrelevant anyway. Sorry.

 

[Kontradiction]

Alright, stop... collaborate and listen...

What a terrible argument. There is some major extrapolation and psychological warfare going on in this post.

The fact that Dan Orlovsky had a career day against the Patriots has no bearing on how good or bad Tim Tebow is, based on a comparison between how he played against the Patriots.

Let me show you how this works...

The Pittsburgh Steelers had the #1 ranked passing defense in the NFL when Tebow and the Broncos faced them. They allowed an average of 171.9 passing yards per game. Tebow threw for 316 yards and was the only QB who threw for over 300 yards against the Steelers that year. Conclusion: Tebow is one of the best QBs in the league because he outperformed everyone against the Steelers. Not only that, he broke NFL records in that one game.

Most yards per completion in a playoff game: 31.6 against Pittsburgh in 2012.
Most 30+ yard passes in a playoff quarter
Fewest passes to 300+ yards in any NFL game
Only quarterback to throw three 50+ yard passes in a playoff game
Longest touchdown pass in NFL playoff history in overtime

Oh and a few Broncos records also...

Most passing yards in a playoff debut
Highest postseason rating

But even still that argument that he is great because of that one game makes little sense. One game is not enough to say, "Oh well this QB did good against this team, on this day, therefore, any QB who did worse against that team on another day is now worse than the QB who did better than him." Wut?

Now, I know what you will say... oh but the Steelers were injured... oh they had a bad gameplan... oh they didn't respect him and gave the game away! Ok, I don't agree, but if you say that then the same could be true about the Patriots and Orlovsky.

And no, this isn't a defense of Tebow. It's an argument against poor logic and reasoning. I'm sure people will take it as some Tebow fan can't take criticism of his boy. False. I criticize him and other players all the time... but I use reason, logic, and statistics... not emotions and how I "feel".

The Steelers played Tebow the exact way that you shouldn't play Tebow. For one, they were down their starting safety and had a relative scrub replacing him. They used a ton of A and B gap blitzes and let him flee the pocket where he can throw on the run, a lot of times to his primary reads. Believe it or not, Tebow's mechanics on the run are a lot better than his mechanics when in the pocket. In fact, I'd say that, while on the run, Tebow has the best mechanics of any mobile quarterback in the league. But when you force him to be a pocket passer and go through his progressions... that's when he fails. That's what the Pats did. They set the edge, let Wilfork clog the middle, took away his primary read, and forced him to go through his progressions to his other receivers. He was incredibly slow doing so and the result was that the Patriots were in the backfield quite often throughout the game with Tebow having nowhere to go.

Orlovsky was just an example. You'll notice I haven't based by entire argument on it and have instead pointed out an instance where the worst pass defense in the NFL crushed Tebow when every scrub quarterback they faced that season came out and had success against them. I could elaborate on it and point out how awful he was in regular season games as well to drive the point home, but that has been beaten into the ground.

EDIT: If you don't believe that Pittsburgh's gameplan against him was bad, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. Look at what Saban did to him in the '09 SECCG then look at what Belichick did differently in the second half of the 2011 regular season game, and all throughout the Divisional Round. What I stated is the exact gameplan you need to shut down Tebow. I stated that gameplan before the regular season game in 2011 and before the playoff game, and got blasted for it by the Tebow fans in here both times. But I was absolutely right. When you let him run free and don't take him off his primary read (really, you don't double cover Demariyus Thomas in overtime?), he can beat you.

 

[sb1]

You guys are really going to backslap each other over this logic? Really?

Fact: The Pats D sucked in 2011 and Tebow got completely dominated against said defense. Just because you don't want to hear that fact doesn't make it any less true.

 

[situational_awareness]

I already demonstrated to you (or maybe it was another Tebow fan) that the Steelers' so called #1 defense was nothing but a paper tiger. They got that #1 ranking thanks in no small part to playing just 1 team ranked in the top 10 in pass offense and 8... count em...EIGHT games against the bottom 10 pass offenses in the NFL.

The Broncos beating that team, with a crippled Ben and a missing Ryan Clark is not nearly as impressive as you would like to think it is. And he got waxed against a lousy Pats D so that "accomplishment" is irrelevant anyway. Sorry.

You didn't demonstrate anything to me except that you are good at making excuses.

 

[sb1]

The Steelers played Tebow the exact way that you shouldn't play Tebow. They used a ton of A and B gap blitzes and let him flee the pocket where he can throw on the run, a lot of times to his primary reads. Believe it or not, Tebow's mechanics on the run are a lot better than his mechanics when in the pocket. In fact, I'd say that, while on the run, Tebow has the best mechanics of any mobile quarterback in the league. But when you force him to be a pocket passer and go through his progressions is when he fails.

Orlovsky was just an example. You'll notice I haven't based by entire argument on it and have instead pointed out an instance where the worst pass defense in the NFL crushed Tebow when every scrub quarterback they faced that season came out and had success against them. I could elaborate on it and point out how awful he was in regular season games as well to drive the point home, but that has been beaten into the ground.

Correct on all counts. I mean since he got exposed and clown stomped against the Pats the following week, does it really matter what he did against a injured (and overrated anyway) Pitt D?

 

[situational_awareness]

Fact: The Pats D sucked in 2011 and Tebow got completely dominated against said defense. Just because you don't want to hear that fact doesn't make it any less true.

Tebow or the Broncos?

 

[sb1]

Tebow or the Broncos?

Both. He was horrible and Brady pummeled the Broncos defense at will. No shame in the latter but the former is inexcusable considering how bad the Pats D was.