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PATRIOTS NEWS Explosive New Hernandez Details

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i.e. The Casey Anthony Trial.

Everything seemed to point to her doing it but the prosecution couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt

While I do not think your statement is unreasonable, I disagree with its absolute conclusion. A trial's outcome is about more than evidence. For instance place a poor, unattractive, male with a less than a boy scout past in place of Casey Anthony and, IMHO, there is a significantly greater chance the jury convicts based on the exact same prosecutorial and defense case presented.
While preconceived notions, hubris, jealousy, anger, apathy (emotions) shouldn't factor into acting "reasonable" when deciding whether to take away one's freedom, it seems they clearly do (we are not Vulcans). And it isn't just jurors who fall under these emotional states of mind. Prosecutors and investigators and police and judges all can operate with these states of mind. It is why it is important to be skeptical about the criminal justice system when their function is to take away one's freedom/life. This is not to say they don't frequently take away the freedom of those that deserve it, they likely do, it is to say that it is best to remain skeptical to avoid an innocent person the ultimate injustice of being falsely convicted of murder (among other crimes).
 
As many others have pointed out, "Journalism" hasn't been good in a long time. Yet it continues to be viewed with too little skepticism even though it unquestionably, unarguably deserves it. It's true with the AH case and many many previous. My best guess is it speaks to the position society holds journalism/media. Too bad that most journalism doesn't take that position more seriously or honorably. It's an important part of having a government that doesn't start acting like King George in 1775 or Uncle Joe of the 40's/50's. For instance, to me, it is unthinkable that our executive branch (in a bipartisan way) sanctions recording of our words and stores them indefinitely on super enormous server farms.....which can potentially be used against us at a later date (maybe just to make sure we toe the line?). Then again, as you know from journalism, "Apocalypse looms as Armageddon nears! So be afraid, very afraid! And now onto the weather report with <hot T&A weather girl>". Journalism did their job, the government can continue to do their job, so not only is my 1 in 3 million chance of being killed in a terrorist attack now safely pushed into the 1 in 6 million range, there is still plenty of bandwidth left over for gluing people to their ads using knee jerk visceral outrage episodes against anyone who doesn't toe the line, just seems like they are in need of a good fall from grace, or it's just too damn salacious to pass up.
As conspiratorially wacky as I sound, , IMHO too many people consistently eating up as fact what passes as 'journalism' is an important ingredient to the problem....
 
I suspect you are right with one change, take out 'prosecution' in favor of 'continued investigation'. The prosecution side is another ballgame.

You are absolutely correct in the sense that "not being able to rule him out" certainly doesn't give them enough to go on for charges. Like you said, further investigation--sure...in my opinion that is what is being done here. They are leaving no stone unturned since there is enough cause of suspicion to warrant a continuation of AH being a very serious focus (if not the most serious focus).

No halfway respectable D.A. would even consider charging someone with something that serious just because they "couldn't rule them out."

The burden of proof is entirely on the prosecution. They have to sufficiently prove their case without any reasonable doubt, and no one likes to lose--especially on a big stage.
 
As conspiratorially wacky as I sound

now wait..is that really a word...conspiratorially?...holy krist!!...it is!

wow...good job Straggs... not only have i never run across this word I would have bet my house that it would never pop up on a football message board..the times...they are a changin...
 
Some famous people (or nationally followed cases) charged with murder or other serious crimes who declared their innocence to the press prior to trial (off the top of my head) either by themselves or their attorneys or both:

Charles Manson
Amy Smart
The Melendez brothers
OJ Simpson
Susan Smith(claimed her car was car jacked)
Charles Stuart (blamed an unidentified black man which sent Boston into a near race war)
Mike Tyson

So that shows that trying to go to the press to declare your innocence is not proof of innocence. In fact, it seems that guilty people are more inclined to go to the press to declare their innocence. Possibly as a last ditch effort to get people to believe them before the avalanche of evidence comes pouring in against them.

The point you make is well taken and is troubling. People believe that you have to say A and act like B or you are guilty (I guess if one has majored in Drama then you are more likely innocent?). Also, people believe the media is some neutral, blank slate forum that just wants you to tell your side. A place that will not dissect your words, why you said them, how you said them, what you looked like when you said them.
The questions I would have for those that feel like AH must be guilty because he hasn't gone out to the media, what should he say/declare his innocence from? The law hasn't charged him with anything and I don't believe they have stated he is a suspect. And media has largely just associated him with a murder case (only encouraging the public to draw the line from A to B). If he does go to the media, do you think the media will take his words from a fair point of view versus only presenting them in a way they think gets more viewers? And won't this now feed the media frenzy giving them fresh 'stuff' to keep his face in the paper/on TV next to the word "murder".
While I'm sure there are reasonable rebuttals to my points, one can see from them that talking to the media isn't so cut and dry.
 
As conspiratorially wacky as I sound

now wait..is that really a word...conspiratorially?...holy krist!!...it is!

wow...good job Straggs... not only have i never run across this word I would have bet my house that it would never pop up on a football message board..the times...they are a changin...

Aww thanks Joker. I was pounding out posts so fast I thought I was getting away from my singular goal of elevating the board
 
As conspiratorially wacky as I sound

now wait..is that really a word...conspiratorially?...holy krist!!...it is!

wow...good job Straggs... not only have i never run across this word I would have bet my house that it would never pop up on a football message board..the times...they are a changin...

I'm actually a bit surprised that you didn't already know that Joker, with your intelligence and unique wordplay at times.

On top of that "conspiratorially" sounds like the kind of word that'd be right in your wheelhouse

For what it's worth, I certainly had no damn idea it was a word. Just one more benefit on being on a NE fan site as opposed to say....Tampa Bay?
 
You are absolutely correct in the sense that "not being able to rule him out" certainly doesn't give them enough to go on for charges. Like you said, further investigation--sure...in my opinion that is what is being done here. They are leaving no stone unturned since there is enough cause of suspicion to warrant a continuation of AH being a very serious focus (if not the most serious focus).

No halfway respectable D.A. would even consider charging someone with something that serious just because they "couldn't rule them out."

The burden of proof is entirely on the prosecution. They have to sufficiently prove their case without any reasonable doubt, and no one likes to lose--especially on a big stage.

That's an extremely key phrase. They don't like to lose on the big stage. Police and prosecutors, they don't like to lose on the big stage. So what if this goes on for a while, media frenzy continues and many in the public are very convinced he is guilty. If they don't like to lose and the public is watching strongly expecting a specific outcome, what could it cause them to do? Have police and prosecutors in other places and cases, due to this hubris, kept their focus on A even if evidence comes in suggesting B or C or D?
If the answers to these questions are what I believe they are, doesn't it clearly equal AH deserving the presumption he may be innocent regardless of how many troopers are seen taking many buckets of clothes and knickknacks out of AH's house?
 
I'm actually a bit surprised that you didn't already know that Joker, with your intelligence and unique wordplay at times.

On top of that "conspiratorially" sounds like the kind of word that'd be right in your wheelhouse

For what it's worth, I certainly had no damn idea it was a word. Just one more benefit on being on a NE fan site as opposed to say....Tampa Bay?

Funny. But did I miss an inside joke with the usage of Tampa Bay? It's sacrilege to have the opportunity to denigrate another board's intelligence and not use Gangrene as the example.
 
no....I doubt that...but then with the moon as full as it is tonight and 7% closer to the earth than normal, I think everything I post tonight(can't speak for you gentlemen) is highly suspect...oh dyam...there I go again with the double entendres...highly dubious...
 
Funny. But did I miss an inside joke with the usage of Tampa Bay? It's sacrilege to have the opportunity to denigrate another board's intelligence and not use Gangrene as the example.

Actually, I was trying to think of an area where I had lived at one point and found the locals to be somewhat....slower than other parts of the country. Kind of the opposite of the tremendous educational standards set in the NE area.

My current hometown of Pittsburgh (although as a Penn Stater I'd be ripping on myself, but I tend to do that anyway from time to time) would have also been quite appropriate in this instance, as would have your choice of NY--but in my opinion there are some characters down in the southern FL area. Not meaning to disrepect anyone who may be from there as it obviously doesn't apply to all. It's said in complete jest anyway.
 
That's an extremely key phrase. They don't like to lose on the big stage. Police and prosecutors, they don't like to lose on the big stage. So what if this goes on for a while, media frenzy continues and many in the public are very convinced he is guilty. If they don't like to lose and the public is watching strongly expecting a specific outcome, what could it cause them to do? Have police and prosecutors in other places and cases, due to this hubris, kept their focus on A even if evidence comes in suggesting B or C or D?
If the answers to these questions are what I believe they are, doesn't it clearly equal AH deserving the presumption he may be innocent regardless of how many troopers are seen taking many buckets of clothes and knickknacks out of AH's house?

Everyone will have their own opinion of what they think is going on, so I may be way off with my thoughts compared to yours but I think that the focus on AH is due to 2 things at the moment:

1. The fact that there is indeed sufficient suspicion to warrant shaking him down and applying pressure, as they've been doing. There just seems to be too many "maybes" and what-ifs that seem to point directly at AH himself for them NOT to be extremely interested. Maybe it's just a sheer coincidence, but at this point in time I would expect most of the leads to be swarming around him. The finding of the body, the timeline of the murder within an hr or two, the proximity of the home, the ties with the girlfriend/sister, the supposed destroying/tampering of evidence, the rental car(s).....all of this stuff would definitely point to starting with AH and going from there. I don't believe that they'll ignore other leads etc, but we also don't have how much of a potential picture they've put together to this point. They may have nothing and be fishing for anything at all, or they may have pieced together some items and are looking more closely at other aspects

2. The fact that there hasn't been any other major breakthroughs to take them elsewhere--at least as of this current moment (and also that we've heard about)

I entirely agree that we should view it as the fact that he's innocent until proven guilty. Our country uses an adversarial system that places the brunt of the evidence and proof solely on the prosecution to fully prove their case without any shred of doubt from those who will decide his fate (in this case a jury). Looking at it from a legal sense, absolutely...we should always give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

In the court of public opinion however, it's going to be completely different. Ethics, guilt, "doing the right thing," answering to a higher power etc are all feelings that come into play and many have already decided his fate based on that alone. It's interesting to hear my wife's side (ethics, strong religious beliefs etc) vs my criminal justice side, because they are completely different on every level. Of course the media doesn't help either, as we've already concluded.

There are just so many different angles that we could literally talk about it 24/7 with everyone having good points with their respective sides. The only conclusion I've been guilty of drawing myself is that AH had made some poor choices in choosing his friends, actions, etc. I could be way off on that too, I'm just being honest that I think it's pretty much fact that he has indeed made some poor choices. I wouldn't ever consider him "guilty" though from a legal standpoint, and I don't have 1/10th of the knowledge that some here do who are actively working attorneys. I am just speaking from someone who majored in the field and is very interested and passionate about the subject of criminal justice, that's all.
 
Everyone will have their own opinion of what they think is going on, so I may be way off with my thoughts compared to yours but I think that the focus on AH is due to 2 things at the moment:

1. The fact that there is indeed sufficient suspicion to warrant shaking him down and applying pressure, as they've been doing. There just seems to be too many "maybes" and what-ifs that seem to point directly at AH himself for them NOT to be extremely interested. Maybe it's just a sheer coincidence, but at this point in time I would expect most of the leads to be swarming around him. The finding of the body, the timeline of the murder within an hr or two, the proximity of the home, the ties with the girlfriend/sister, the supposed destroying/tampering of evidence, the rental car(s).....all of this stuff would definitely point to starting with AH and going from there. I don't believe that they'll ignore other leads etc, but we also don't have how much of a potential picture they've put together to this point. They may have nothing and be fishing for anything at all, or they may have pieced together some items and are looking more closely at other aspects

2. The fact that there hasn't been any other major breakthroughs to take them elsewhere--at least as of this current moment (and also that we've heard about)

I entirely agree that we should view it as the fact that he's innocent until proven guilty. Our country uses an adversarial system that places the brunt of the evidence and proof solely on the prosecution to fully prove their case without any shred of doubt from those who will decide his fate (in this case a jury). Looking at it from a legal sense, absolutely...we should always give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

In the court of public opinion however, it's going to be completely different. Ethics, guilt, "doing the right thing," answering to a higher power etc are all feelings that come into play and many have already decided his fate based on that alone. It's interesting to hear my wife's side (ethics, strong religious beliefs etc) vs my criminal justice side, because they are completely different on every level. Of course the media doesn't help either, as we've already concluded.

There are just so many different angles that we could literally talk about it 24/7 with everyone having good points with their respective sides. The only conclusion I've been guilty of drawing myself is that AH had made some poor choices in choosing his friends, actions, etc. I could be way off on that too, I'm just being honest that I think it's pretty much fact that he has indeed made some poor choices. I wouldn't ever consider him "guilty" though from a legal standpoint, and I don't have 1/10th of the knowledge that some here do who are actively working attorneys. I am just speaking from someone who majored in the field and is very interested and passionate about the subject of criminal justice, that's all.


I hear ya, opinions will vary. I don't have issue with people coming to a board or in a 'live' group yammering away on what is possible, making their own guess as to what happened. I'm doing it too and probably a lot more long winded than most. It's the nature of the beast, humans like to 'chat' about interesting topics (interesting can even be murder, right or wrong). It's where one's opinion becomes adamant, a fact, based on a process that is very questionable. These strong emotions get involved, the SOB is guilty, the expectation of punishment is also tied to emotion. As unimportant as it may sound for someone to take that position/have that state of mind, it translates to media consumption. One feeds the other and public agencies most definitely stand up, take notice and tailor their actions accordingly/a de facto mob leader. People becoming adamantly, emotionally vested in something is power, big power to the public sector. Political careers have been made on tapping into it. On a larger scale it was the red menace or, more recently, terrorism (among many others not quite as large scale). They just need you feeling fear, anger, making an inflexible snap judgement, never being skeptical of their actions or your own.

Julian Edelman was the last Patriot carrion offered up to the lion's den. His guilt was one that caused anger, absolute, he was to be cut, he's done, what he had "done" was the same as rape, a multi year prison sentence!
Sure, Julian was innocent but that's ok. A new and better witch to burn will be coming so quickly as to render moot the need to examine how effortlessly and thoughtlessly someone's life could have easily been unjustly ruined. I know it may seem far fetched but this starts with a public that is ruled by their emotion/visceral reaction along with eating up an unreliable, buy-able media. Yet it is still surprising that AH could be this quickly written off by so many given Julian's supposed guilt was nothing of the sort and happened less than 12 months ago. Granted JE's case and AH's are not the same. JE was in fact innocent while AH's level of guilt or innocence is undetermined. However, the underlying principal is there.
 
So when are we gonna see Hernandez & Lewis meet on Celebrity Death Match??















...is the kind of thing I'd say if I wasn't so damned classy. :snob:
 
Sorry, but this got glossed over in all the hoopla last week. Someone correct me if I'm wrong...two people were taken from Hernandez' home last Tuesday morning by the police.

Why is no one talking about who they are? Did these two live/stay in the mansion? Who are they? Where are they now? Did they cooperate?
 
Sorry, but this got glossed over in all the hoopla last week. Someone correct me if I'm wrong...two people were taken from Hernandez' home last Tuesday morning by the police.

Why is no one talking about who they are? Did these two live/stay in the mansion? Who are they? Where are they now? Did they cooperate?

You mistake the celebrity driven media for actual investigative reporting on news
 
So wait Dante Stallworth commits DUI manslaughter and the Patriots sign him after the fact but yet if Hernandez ends up never actually getting charged with this murder he is still completely done with the team?

There is no comparison between the two. What Stallworth did was not premeditated or planned. He had absolutely no intention of taking a human life although he could have avoided putting himself into such a position. He has expressed extreme remorse for this.

Hernandez, on the other hand, is complicit to if not directly involved in a premeditated and intentional taking of a human life. I don't think you can be any more intentional than with a cold-blooded, multiple shots, back-to-the-head style of execution.

That sends a pretty loud message.
 
You mistake the celebrity driven media for actual investigative reporting on news

True but in this case some facts are clear. The fact that AH hasn't been charged yet doesn't mean anything. The MSP have to be methodical given that they have one shot at him because of double jeopardy. Obviously just speculation but it appears that he is an accessory and/or conspirator at a minimum.
 
Hernandez, on the other hand, is complicit to if not directly involved in a premeditated and intentional taking of a human life. I don't think you can be any more intentional than with a cold-blooded, multiple shots, back-to-the-head style of execution.

We still have no evidence of this.

All we have evidence of is that he is surrounded by people who are apparently violent in nature, and involved in a lifestyle that begets crime. That, alone, might be enough to ensure Hernandez, regrettably, never suits up as a Patriot again. But to say he is complicit or directly involved in the murder at this point is not appropriate, especially given a week full of shoddy news reporting. All we think we know, at this point, is that he has been uncooperative in the investigation. As pointed out before, there could be many reasons why he would do that yet do not indicate he is directly involved in the murder.
 
There is no comparison between the two. What Stallworth did was not premeditated or planned. He had absolutely no intention of taking a human life although he could have avoided putting himself into such a position. He has expressed extreme remorse for this.

Hernandez, on the other hand, is complicit to if not directly involved in a premeditated and intentional taking of a human life. I don't think you can be any more intentional than with a cold-blooded, multiple shots, back-to-the-head style of execution.

That sends a pretty loud message.

A voice of reason...I hope nobody on Patsfans.com is going to defend Hernadez on this. God Forbid if the dead person was anybody in our families. Hernandez is a ungrateful thug who should get what he deserves...a very long time in jail.
 
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