A little early, but: should the Patriots try to re-sign Wes Welker?

[Ring 6]

I think this scenario needs to be played out.

I have no idea what that means.

 

[Ring 6]

I have no doubt that the coaches believe that WW is very important to this offense. I also believe that they share the same opinion of a healthy Gronk, Ah, Lloyd and Ridley.

I also believe that with a strong defense, Gronk, AH, Lloyd, Ridley and a strong running game and special teams, and Brady at QB, BB also believes he can win a Super Bowl without Welker.

Do you seriously think that any one is saying the team cannot win a SB without Welker, or that that is anywhere near the criteria of the discusison?
You are now taking a very specific discussion and and turning into a 'this guy is good too' and pulling the 'I'm sure BB thinks' card about a stupid comment.

So unless you want to pretend all 53 players are the same making comments like "X is important to the team too" is just counterproductive to having any kind of reasonable discussion.
If thats the route you wish to go, I will move on.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Whatever you were trying to do, you succeeding in showing a substantial list of good WRs who show that we should be very confident Welker will be very productive for the next 3+years.

I absolutely did. No question. But by chance did you notice how small the sample size was?

You tried, and failed. Now what, bring up guys who weren't near his level and dropped off as well?:

How can I fail at something if I never tried? Regardless you know darn well that a player is better off physically at 32 than 34. Players age quicker in the NFL when they get older.

So what you are saying is if the guys with real risky characteristics turn out to not have any risk and the guy with no risky factors becomes a risk then the risky guys would be less risky? Really?:

Talib is young and there was nothing risky about his on the field performance. I agree that whether he can stay on the straight and narrow is a concern. By all accounts hes been fine here.

We have no idea if Vollmer's issues surrounding his back are related or a seperate set of circumstances. IF the team is given medical assurances that hes fine, then I have no issues with signing him long-term. Everyone gets hurt.

Even if that bizarre alter universe existed, you still let the best football player of the bunch go

In 2010, Talib was voted DB Of The Year and Vollmer was 2nd team All-Pro at RT. When right, they are 2 of the top 50 players in the NFL. We're not talking about signing ham -n eggers here...

 

[RobertWeathers]

I have no idea what that means.

Talib's future worth, Vollmer's medical situation and the team's assesment and ability to retain both players.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Do you seriously think that any one is saying the team cannot win a SB without Welker, or that that is anywhere near the criteria of the discusison?
You are now taking a very specific discussion and and turning into a 'this guy is good too' and pulling the 'I'm sure BB thinks' card about a stupid comment..

If a team thinks a particular player helps them win more than another one, they make the effort to pay them more. I think its pretty clear cut. If a team thinks that their chances of winning go down by x%, but for the long term believe their chances improve, then they make that decision accordingly. I think the Seymour situation is proof of this.

So unless you want to pretend all 53 players are the same making comments like "X is important to the team too" is just counterproductive to having any kind of reasonable discussion.
If thats the route you wish to go, I will move on.

This is an internal personnel evaluation exercise, Andy. BB is not standing in the locker room and saying, "We suck without Welker". When it comes to roster decisions, trade-offs are made every day. Some short-term, some long-term.

 

[Ring 6]

I absolutely did. No question. But by chance did you notice how small the sample size was?

You picked it. I assumed it was the best representation of your argument. Are you asking to try again?

How can I fail at something if I never tried? Regardless you know darn well that a player is better off physically at 32 than 34. Players age quicker in the NFL when they get older.

How do you 'age quicker'?
You gave a list of players to 'prove' that his age should be a big concern regarding his production, and it proved just the opposite for the most part.
If Welker was ageless he would make 15mill a year, so all of that is already factored in.

Talib is young and there was nothing risky about his on the field performance. I agree that whether he can stay on the straight and narrow is a concern. By all accounts hes been fine here.

He has been here less than 2 months. His on field performance is no at Welkers level. He hasn't really performed much here, playing 5 games and struggling through most of them.

We have no idea if Vollmer's issues surrounding his back are related or a seperate set of circumstances. IF the team is given medical assurances that hes fine, then I have no issues with signing him long-term. Everyone gets hurt.

He has a CHRONIC back problem that he has had since college and has flared up in each of the last 2 years. If you want to pretend that someone could say it doesn't exist, fine, but thats not discussing Vollmer reasonably.

In 2010, Talib was voted DB Of The Year and Vollmer was 2nd team All-Pro at RT. When right, they are 2 of the top 50 players in the NFL. We're not talking about signing ham -n eggers here...

You are kidding right? 2 of the top 50??????????????????
Vollmers high point was one source voting him the 4th best RT in the game one time. He is not playing at that level today. He has never been voted by his peers and coaches as one of the 100+ players that goes to the probowl. The #1 RT would debatably be in the top 50 best in the league. Vollmer isn't close to that.
Top 50 is less than 2 per team. There are easily 10 better players on his own team without even thinking about it:
Brady, Mankins, Solder, Gronk, Welker, Ridley, Hernandez, Wilfork, Mayo, Spikes, McCourty, Jones is just a list of guys that aren't a debate.
The 8th best (at best) guy on his own offense is not a top 50 player.

Where are you getting "DB of the year" from?
As far as I can tell, Talib has never even been to a probowl, and in the year you are talking about he only played in 11 games. Please explain what DB of the year is?

 

[aluminum seats]

I'd be careful about the Rice comparisons...You are talking about the most unique, most productive WR to ever play the game.

First, to be an annoying grammar guy, I don't think the word unique can be qualified--something is unique or it isn't. (I just annoyed myself by typing that.)

But anyway....you're right, Rice is the top guy. But I don't think it's insane to say that Welker does have some of the very qualities that made Rice so great. Rice wasn't the biggest or fastest (at least, I don't think he was) guy on the field. Where he excelled was precise route running, preparation, great hands, and the toughness and discipline to keep playing as he got older and, invariably, got banged up. I think Welker has a LOT of that.

Talib was kicked out of Tampa Bay! Vollmer is ALWAYS one play from a six week injury hiatus. And on and on. Priority one has to be Welker.

 

[Ring 6]

If a team thinks a particular player helps them win more than another one, they make the effort to pay them more. I think its pretty clear cut. If a team thinks that their chances of winning go down by x%, but for the long term believe their chances improve, then they make that decision accordingly. I think the Seymour situation is proof of this.

So your answer is that we can't have a discussion because every player has value and only the team can set that value?
Then why are you trying to do so?

This is an internal personnel evaluation exercise, Andy. BB is not standing in the locker room and saying, "We suck without Welker". When it comes to roster decisions, trade-offs are made every day. Some short-term, some long-term.

I do not understand why you want to take a rudimentary and blatantly obvious concept and make a statement intending to belittle someone who disagreew with you as if someone who values Welkers importance to the team thinks BB stands in the lockerroom saying we cant win without Welker.
I'm done if your schtick is to take something I never said, call that my argument and make a joke about the argument I never made as if you are arguing against it with me.
You know better than that so I can only assume you do not wish to have a real discussion.

 

[RobertWeathers]

You picked it. I assumed it was the best representation of your argument. Are you asking to try again??

How do you 'age quicker'?
You gave a list of players to 'prove' that his age should be a big concern regarding his production, and it proved just the opposite for the most part.
If Welker was ageless he would make 15mill a year, so all of that is already factored in.??

I don't think it's necessary. I think it's self-evident that a majority of players aren't as good, as durable and don't heal as quicker at 34 when they were 32. If you don't believe this, I don't know what to tell you.

He has been here less than 2 months. His on field performance is no at Welkers level. He hasn't really performed much here, playing 5 games and struggling through most of them..??

I wouldn't say that hes struggled. Like I said, this situation still needs to play out.

He has a CHRONIC back problem that he has had since college and has flared up in each of the last 2 years. If you want to pretend that someone could say it doesn't exist, fine, but thats not discussing Vollmer reasonably...??

I don't think I've dismissed it or pretended that it doesn't exist.

You are kidding right? 2 of the top 50??????????????????
Vollmers high point was one source voting him the 4th best RT in the game one time. He is not playing at that level today. He has never been voted by his peers and coaches as one of the 100+ players that goes to the probowl. The #1 RT would debatably be in the top 50 best in the league. Vollmer isn't close to that.
Top 50 is less than 2 per team. There are easily 10 better players on his own team without even thinking about it:
Brady, Mankins, Solder, Gronk, Welker, Ridley, Hernandez, Wilfork, Mayo, Spikes, McCourty, Jones is just a list of guys that aren't a debate.
The 8th best (at best) guy on his own offense is not a top 50 player.

Where are you getting "DB of the year" from?
As far as I can tell, Talib has never even been to a probowl, and in the year you are talking about he only played in 11 games. Please explain what DB of the year is?

Playing at their top levels, Talib and Vollmer are top 50 players. Talib's award is valid.

 

[Ring 6]

I don't think it's necessary. I think it's self-evident that a majority of players aren't as good, as durable and don't heal as quicker at 34 when they were 32. If you don't believe this, I don't know what to tell you.

That is meaningless to the discussion. Age is already factored in to what will be paid to Welker. Show me all of the 32 year olds who couldn't get 4 year contracts.

I wouldn't say that hes struggled. Like I said, this situation still needs to play out.

Your kidding right? He has missed games and played poorly in many of the ones he was in.
You think hje has played well here?

I don't think I've dismissed it or pretended that it doesn't exist.

Right, you just qualify every comment with we need to sign him because IF he doesn't hav ea chroic back problem, (which he does) he is worth more than he is.

Playing at their top levels, Talib and Vollmer are top 50 players. Talib's award is valid.

They aren't even close. You are really clueless if you think those 2 guys are in the top 50 in the NFL.
What award is valid? Please show me what award he got, because at this point it seems you made it up.

 

[goheels22002]

I don't think either one of us know what Talib is truly asking for at this point. I also assume he doesn't either as the team, the market and his worth have not been determined yet.

The 2012 franchise tag value was $10.6 million, so that's an indication of what Talib could look for in 2013 and beyond. I'm not sure he has a huge amount of leverage, but he could reasonably ask for $6 million/year which is what DeAngelo Hall makes.

 

[Ring 6]

The 2012 franchise tag value was $10.6 million, so that's an indication of what Talib could look for in 2013 and beyond. I'm not sure he has a huge amount of leverage, but he could reasonably ask for $6 million/year which is what DeAngelo Hall makes.

Well, he isn't a top 5 corner, so the tag number isn't part of the consideration really.

 

[goheels22002]

Well, he isn't a top 5 corner, so the tag number isn't part of the consideration really.

Hall's number is in the bottom of the top ten where a bunch of pretty good cornerbacks are clustered in that $4 to $6 million range. Talib would appear to fit in that group from what we've seen. It's hard to judge how much the off-field gun play diminishes his value. My guess is that there would be a pretty healthy market for Talib.

 

[Ring 6]

Hall's number is in the bottom of the top ten where a bunch of pretty good cornerbacks are clustered. Talib would appear to fit in that group from what little we've seen. It's hard to judge how much the off-field gun play diminishes his value. My guess is that there would be a pretty healthy market for Talib.

Lets also not forget that he has been bad or missing in more games than he has been good since we got him.
The 3 games to glory are a big audition for Talib and whether or not he will be back.

 

[RobertWeathers]

So your answer is that we can't have a discussion because every player has value and only the team can set that value?
Then why are you trying to do so?

I do not understand why you want to take a rudimentary and blatantly obvious concept and make a statement intending to belittle someone who disagreew with you as if someone who values Welkers importance to the team thinks BB stands in the lockerroom saying we cant win without Welker.
I'm done if your schtick is to take something I never said, call that my argument and make a joke about the argument I never made as if you are arguing against it with me.

You know better than that so I can only assume you do not wish to have a real discussion.

I am at a complete loss as to why you think that I am trying to insult or belittle you. Not my intent whatsoever.I took post #402 as sarcastic remark and I responded directly at face value. If that was not your intent. Then it is a misunderstanding.

At a high-level, my point was that BB, Nick C and Floyd stack rank the talent on this team and best determine who the need in the fold badly short and long term. in my opinion, the Pats have determined that they need WW in the fold short term badly, but are unsure how badly they need him long-term. There are many reasons why he isn't and whether he should be signed long-term or not and i think what I just said is one of them.

Thats it and don't read any more into it than that.

 

[RobertWeathers]

That is meaningless to the discussion. Age is already factored in to what will be paid to Welker. Show me all of the 32 year olds who couldn't get 4 year contracts. .

No. It is not. 4 year contracts are not the issue. Its the up-front money paid and the subsequential cap hit.

Your kidding right? He has missed games and played poorly in many of the ones he was in.
You think hje has played well here?
.

I don't think hes played as badly as you think. Hes and upgrade over McCourty and Arrington. Has he been a Revis-clone? No but I think hes been above average which is highly sought-after in this league.

Right, you just qualify every comment with we need to sign him because IF he doesn't hav ea chroic back problem, (which he does) he is worth more than he is..

When healthy, we clearly don't agree on Vollmer's worth.

They aren't even close. You are really clueless if you think those 2 guys are in the top 50 in the NFL.
What award is valid? Please show me what award he got, because at this point it seems you made it up.

I'll concede a bit here. If a player wins 2nd team all-pro and is #16 of all NFL lineman and Talib is in the top 10 in QB rating against year over year, etc and wins the NFL DB of the year award selected by the nfl alumni association, then i think that says hes a pretty damn good DB. Plus I've seen the guy play and I think hes good.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The 2012 franchise tag value was $10.6 million, so that's an indication of what Talib could look for in 2013 and beyond. I'm not sure he has a huge amount of leverage, but he could reasonably ask for $6 million/year which is what DeAngelo Hall makes.

As I was telling Andy, making the decision to pay Talib $6m per is a big one and I think the team and he needs some more time to determine of both parties are right for each other long-term. I think its possible but who knows...

 

[Ring 6]

No. It is not. 4 year contracts are not the issue. Its the up-front money paid and the subsequential cap hit.

It doesnt matter. Thats what he costs, thats what players his age get, and he is invaluable to this team. Let me guess, next it will be let Brady go to save on the cap?

I don't think hes played as badly as you think. Hes and upgrade over McCourty and Arrington. Has he been a Revis-clone? No but I think hes been above average which is highly sought-after in this league.

He has not at all been an upgrade over McCourty. He has helped the D by allowing McCourty to upgrade the safety position, but it is ridiculous to say Talib has played better at corner as a Patriot this season than McCourty, simply ridiculous.
I know there is a lot of hope for Talib to play well, but he has been awful in 2 games (remember everyone blamed the first one on rustiness) and has missed others. He has not been above average in any way, other than the hopes of fans. Yes, if healthy he can be, but that hasn't happened on the field consistently yet.

When healthy, we clearly don't agree on Vollmer's worth.

But health is the most important part of the equation. You can't pay or value a guy who has health issues as if they didn't exist.
I think we can agree that for the last 2 seasons Vollmer has been an average RT at best, and an unreliable one as well. Right?

I'll concede a bit here. If a player wins 2nd team all-pro and is #16 of all NFL lineman

Where do you get #16 of all NFL OL? Did you make that up?
And that was his best season ever and he hasn't played nearly as well in 2 years.

and Talib is in the top 10 in QB rating against year over year, etc

There is no such statistic and even the bogus ones don't put him there.

and wins the NFL DB of the year award selected by the nfl alumni association,

Many players have obscure awards, that doesnt mean they are one of the top 50 players in the league, especially 2 years, and many issues later.
Do we agree neither has ever made a probowl, meaning the peers and coaches have never had them in the top 100 in any season?

then i think that says hes a pretty damn good DB. Plus I've seen the guy play and I think hes good.

I didn't say he sucks, but top 50 is ridiculous, totally ridiculous.

Of course you won't find anyone anywhere arguing Welker is not in the top 50, and that is the less risky guy you are championing keeping these risky ones ahead of while at the same time ignoring the design of our offense, the best offense in the NFL, revolves around Welkers role.

 

[Ring 6]

I am at a complete loss as to why you think that I am trying to insult or belittle you. Not my intent whatsoever.I took post #402 as sarcastic remark and I responded directly at face value. If that was not your intent. Then it is a misunderstanding.

Of course it is belittling to reduce the discussion about the value of Wes Welker to "I'm sure BB doesn't stand in the lockerroom saying we cant win without Welker" and the post you thought was sarcastic was not it was a response to you turning the discussion of the value of Wellker into 'well every player on the team has value too'. As I said and meant then, if you don't want to be realistic, lets just stop the conversation.

At a high-level, my point was that BB, Nick C and Floyd stack rank the talent on this team and best determine who the need in the fold badly short and long term. in my opinion, the Pats have determined that they need WW in the fold short term badly, but are unsure how badly they need him long-term. There are many reasons why he isn't and whether he should be signed long-term or not and i think what I just said is one of them.

This is another example of your disingenuous approach.
We are discussing what we would do without knowing what the team will do, and you attempt to buoy your stance by saying you know what they think. You don't.

Thats it and don't read any more into it than that.

I'm not reading anything into it, I am reading and responding to exactly what you are saying.

 

[supafly]

What's ridiculous are the comments being made that Talib is easily the most highly sought after free agent CB, and the comments that liken his salary to the top tier CB's pacts of Carr and Finnegan at 5/50+ and 30 million guaranteed.

If someone would actually pay Talib 5/50 with almost 30 million guaranteed then shame on them. To me that's almost literally laughable.

I agree that he can make a much better case for himself by playing well over the course of the playoffs, and I also think that his value remains somewhat up in the air right now, but if anything it's a lot closer to that of a 6-7 million dollar CB, at least in my opinion.

He has helped at times, but Devin McCourty's safety play is the #1 reason that we were able to see this secondary gel down the stretch, and I also believe that Devin McCourty will be the one who gets the kind of money quotes that are being thrown around when he is up for FA after next season, certainly not Talib, and certainly not after a very small sample size where we haven't even seen anything all that significant in my opinion.