A little early, but: should the Patriots try to re-sign Wes Welker?

[Huckleberry1]

For unrestricted free agents, it's the franchise tag or nothing.

1st round, 2nd round, original round tenders only exist for restricted free agents.

Thanks, i spaced that until you asked snake eyes what he was talking about.

Tagging him is too expensive, he may well be gone.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

danny amendola and let welker go? just an option out there...would save us $$ but can he stay healthy...who knows

 

[Snake Eyes]

Stay on point. Nick Kaczur was hardly a scrub and was the starting right tackle on the 2007 New England Patriots offense.

The New England Patriots have a proven history of selecting and developing offensive tackles in the first three rounds of the NFL Draft since calendar year 2001.

IF someone has the raw talent that can be properly molded I'll trust BB and Dante's judgment, they're very good at what they do, but that's not to say we can simply throw anyone there and things will work out fine. There's been tons of that nonsense thrown around this board, apparently many have forgotten that a chain is only as stong as it's weakest link.

This doesnt mean that I support a big contract for Vollmer, he's simply too risky and I think he'll want LT money, I'd rather we get some younger players to mold.

 

[Huckleberry1]

danny amendola and let welker go? just an option out there...would save us $$ but can he stay healthy...who knows

That would mean paying almost as much money for an injury plagued player who isn't close in terms of production.

 

[ATippett56]

There's a world of difference between finding someone who could fill a position as opposed to someone who can dominate it.

Also, just because we've been able to make do with scrubs in the past doesnt mean you want to have a GOAT QB protected by them if you can help it.

With the combination of Tom Ashworth/Brandon Gorin assigned to the right tackle position for the 2004 New England Patriots, the New England Patriots offense was ranked fourth in points scored.

2004 New England Patriots Statistics & Players - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Based upon your "expert" analysis of offensive tackles, somehow Tom Brady survived the 2004 NFL Season.

 

[ATippett56]

This doesnt mean that I support a big contract for Vollmer, he's simply too risky and I think he'll want LT money, I'd rather we get some younger players to mold.

The New England Patriots have three right offensive tackles under contract for the 2013 NFL Season:

Marcus Cannon
Markus Zusevics
Kyle Hix

 

[mgteich]

Yes, I realize that Belichick will likely be able to get the equivalent of Cole and/or Martin for little money, perhaps even re-sign them.

My point is that we have only Dennard and Dowling signed for 2013. Replacing both Talib and Arrington will cost considerable cap money, not counting the minor money for the backups.

You do realize that Cole and Martin signed one year veteran minimum contracts. The aforementioned two cornerbacks weren't exactly hot commodities in the unrestricted free agent market.

 

[Deus Irae]

I know it Ken, it's just like all those idiots who shine Brady's knob. Christ he's just a 6th round draft pick who has no athleticism but can throw accurately, and there are 8th graders who can do that. I mean hell, people were surprised we took him. And don't tell me their offense would crumble without him with all these weapons. They barely need him with their 2 TE offense and this run game and Mallett could easily replace him. Give him 2 years 5 million with 2 guaranteed when he comes up again, he'll be ancient and he should take one for the team anyways. Besides that they will need the money to re-sign Ebner and Bequette.

Usually reading this stuff when the quoted person is on ignore is a pain in the butt. Great job making this post a quality laugh for me even though I couldn't see what you were responding to.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

That would mean paying almost as much money for an injury plagued player who isn't close in terms of production.

ammendola would not cost as much as welker..just look at the stats and what welker does year after year...that's BIG $$ compared to amendola

 

[ATippett56]

Yes, I realize that Belichick will likely be able to get the equivalent of Cole and/or Martin for little money, perhaps even re-sign them.

My point is that we have only Dennard and Dowling signed for 2013. Replacing both Talib and Arrington will cost considerable cap money, not counting the minor money for the backups.

The New England Patriots defensive backs under contract for the 2013 NFL Season:

Devin McCourty
Ras-I Dowling
Alfonzo Dennard
Steven Gregory
Tavon Wilson
Nate Ebner
Malcolm Williams (ERFA)

Re-signing Cole and Martin would put the defensive backfield count to nine, while I seriously doubt that cornerback Kyle Arrington and his zero interceptions this season would "break the bank" in the unrestricted free agent market.

My latest mock draft would fill in the blanks, so to speak.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...013-mock-draft-thread-page45.html#post3314586

Refer to post #441 for details.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes, I realize that Belichick will likely be able to get the equivalent of Cole and/or Martin for little money, perhaps even re-sign them.

My point is that we have only Dennard and Dowling signed for 2013. Replacing both Talib and Arrington will cost considerable cap money, not counting the minor money for the backups.

Two serious questions:

1.) Why would you expect Arrington to cost considerable cap money?

2.) What are you placing as the dollar range for "considerable" in each case?

 

[Deus Irae]

ammendola would not cost as much as welker..just look at the stats and what welker does year after year...that's BIG $$ compared to amendola

This makes no sense if Amendola is getting franchise tag money.

 

[Bhelmet]

I hope they already have an agreement in principle waiting until it is legal to sign. Welker deserves a nice payday - few (maybe only one or two) players have given more than Wes as a Patriot. I know past performance does not guarantee future results, but I hope they make the investment.

 

[Huckleberry1]

ammendola would not cost as much as welker..just look at the stats and what welker does year after year...that's BIG $$ compared to amendola

This would be completely accurate if Welker was going to get what his production warrants, which is Larry Fitzgerald /Calvin Johnson $$$ (125-8 OMFG), which even I don't consider rational. In that case Amendola's fair market value would be around would be around 30-35 for 4, a fraction of Welker's worth. However in this case what we are really talking about is Welker getting that fraction of his production based value, 4-40, 3-30 etc, yet even that is considered crazy assed by the Welker bashers here (Yes Ken i am talking about you). If Wes was asking for 125 million and they could get Amendola for 4-26 he would be overpaid but probably still worth it given the importance of that role in this offense and the need to keep Brady upright, which a great slot receiver does by defeating the blitz, and last but most important-the need to get more rings before Brady calls it quits, which imo calls for them to go all out to put themselves over the top for the remainder of Brady's career.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Usually reading this stuff when the quoted person is on ignore is a pain in the butt. Great job making this post a quality laugh for me even though I couldn't see what you were responding to.

Thanks, i was just reflecting Ken's "he's just another UDFA jag" post back at him. apparently thinks he's great but he's just a dime a dozen player who is easily replaced. His ability to maintain both positions simultaneously on a regular basis makes me wonder if he is Sybil. " i love wes, really i do, i just wish minimum wage was in play here. $7.00 an hour seems fair to me...... that's $21.00 a game and who wouldn't take that to play for the Patriots?"

 

[Snake Eyes]

With the combination of Tom Ashworth/Brandon Gorin assigned to the right tackle position for the 2004 New England Patriots, the New England Patriots offense was ranked fourth in points scored

Yes, and Donald Thomas filled in very nicely at LG this season. The fact that we've had success at getting players to fill in at times doesnt mean it's wise to discount the value of a very good O-lineman.

Based upon your "expert" analysis of offensive tackles, somehow Tom Brady survived the 2004 NFL Season.

I actually didnt mention the skill level of any tackle aside from Vollmer, not sure what you're trying to bash. Seriously, back off on the condescension, no one's trying to steal your lunch money.

 

[Snake Eyes]

The New England Patriots have three right offensive tackles under contract for the 2013 NFL Season:

Marcus Cannon
Markus Zusevics
Kyle Hix

Cannon has played a little and did ok but nothing of the other two, if they're actually good then fine, if there's room to upgrade there are serveral interesting prospects in this draft.

 

[mgteich]

Obviously, a starting #1 corner and a starting nickel are in 2 different categories, as you indicate.

I would put a starting corner at around $8M a year.

I would put a starting nickel at about $4M a year.

Of course, we might get replacements for less than the above. It depends on the market in February.

Two serious questions:

1.) Why would you expect Arrington to cost considerable cap money?

2.) What are you placing as the dollar range for "considerable" in each case?

 

[supafly]

Did Talib make THE difference? Signing him allowed Arrington to move to his natural spot of nickel and allowed McCourty to move to safety. When playing Talib covered the other team's top receiver.

And yes, the other part of the difference in the secondary was the ability of Dennard to step up, after Cole stepped up before he was injured.

Belichick has decisions to make at corner. However, four corners are free agents: Talib, Arrington, Cole and Martin. It is extremely difficult to go into free agency and find 2-4 corners.

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but I am assuming that you have the same thoughts as me regarding whether or not Talib made 'the' difference in the secondary or not.

Yes, of course we all know that he helped initiate the change for McCourty to safety, although that happened prior to him coming here, and there are many reports that surfaced that claimed that the front office wanted McCourty to be our FS from training camp on, mostly by SMY and Bedard. The "story" was that they decided against the permanent move due to not having enough depth at CB. Take it for what it's worth, it may be true it may not be true, but it has been reported by multiple accounts, and either way Devin McCourty did move to FS before Talib was signed. Of course one could argue that Talib allowed DMcC to remain there, but I believe he would've stayed there anyway.

I also believe that another CB can be had for much lesser money, depending of course on what Belichick wants to do with Arrington, etc.

We can realistically still have McCourty at safety, Arrington in the slot, and Dennard on the outside. The final piece would be selecting another CB/S either in the draft, in FA, or both.

That decision will be made by Belichick, but I doubt he's going to go over about 7--7.5 million with Talib myself.

Keep in mind although we're talking about a guy who has certainly helped the secondary in many ways, he also has played pretty sparingly since he came here and broke up a meager 2 passes defended (and the INT return of course). I realize his potential here, but I also think that he is truly overvalued by many at the same time.

It'll be up to Bill to decide what's best for the future of the team, but I do doubt that he's going to break the bank for him, especially with some question marks about his attitude and character in the past, although he may feel that those issues have been resolved since then too. Time will tell.

 

[supafly]

Obviously, a starting #1 corner and a starting nickel are in 2 different categories, as you indicate.

I would put a starting corner at around $8M a year.

I would put a starting nickel at about $4M a year.

Of course, we might get replacements for less than the above. It depends on the market in February.

It obviously also depends on Belichick the most.

He hasn't typically wanted to join the overspending parade at the position of CB for too many players, IIRC. Not only that, he also has McCourty coming up next year too, where he simply won't have much of a choice in what he pays him. All accounts point to Belichick wanting McCourty here for the future in my opinion, so that's something to take into account this year with Talib's situation...or maybe it's not?

He may very well decide to go the route of trying to keep Arrington for the money that you mentioned (which also gives him starter capability in a pinch, although with a talent dropoff it certainly still counts), while replacing the money that would be sunk in retaining Talib.

Lots of chatter for a guy who came during the Colts game and has pretty much been out since the 49'ers game. He did break up 2 passes here and had the INT return, but there are alternatives that would still allow DMcC to stay at safety (he was there already), and to keep Arrington in the slot. After all, Dennard was already on the outside too.

I still believe that Talib is a very good CB here and would like him for the future, but I also believe that he is being tremendously overvalued by some. Then again, I've been wrong before, so keep in mind it's only my humble opinion.