The Official B!tch about the secondary/pass coverage thread

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

I just don't understand how, when the team game planned to take away Larry Fitzgerald, they were able to hold him to 1 catch for 4 yards.

Larry Fitzgerald >>>>>>>>>> Doug Baldwin + Golden Tate+ Sidney Rice, yet each of the latter had a 40+ yard play... with Rice's coming at the "obvious long passing play" time of the game.

On paper, a game where you dominate the best asset of a weak offensive team (Lynch was held to a very sub par game) and make the offense 1 dimensional - you'd say that the defense had a very good game. Yet somehow making the Seahawks 1 dimensional wound up playing almost entirely to their favor.

 

[livinginthe past]

I just don't understand how, when the team game planned to take away Larry Fitzgerald, they were able to hold him to 1 catch for 4 yards.

Larry Fitzgerald >>>>>>>>>> Doug Baldwin + Golden Tate+ Sidney Rice, yet each of the latter had a 40+ yard play... with Rice's coming at the "obvious long passing play" time of the game.

On paper, a game where you dominate the best asset of a weak offensive team (Lynch was held to a very sub par game) and make the offense 1 dimensional - you'd say that the defense had a very good game. Yet somehow making the Seahawks 1 dimensional wound up playing almost entirely to their favor.

I believe it is easier to shut down a single receiver with constant bracket coverage than it is shut down 3 WR's - even if they are substantially less talented.

Couple of times on long bombs from Wilson, I would notice more than 1 WR running totally free of coverage - no doubt a reflection of inexperienced safety play but troubling to say the least.

 

[randomk1]

I am what you may label a homer, I definitely prefer to look a things with a more measured perspective - one that takes into account how much all teams struggle against the pass these days, for example.

Sure when it's Brady,Brees,Rodgers,Mannings doing the throwing. Against Russell Wilson? We're the first to struggle against him.

Coming against NE he had 5 TD, 6 INT, 63%, 800 yards, 163 yards per game,6.5 yards per attempt and a 75 passer rating

Against us ? 60%, 293 yards,10.8 yards per attempt, 3 TD, 0 INT, 133 passer rating.

 

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

I believe it is easier to shut down a single receiver with constant bracket coverage than it is shut down 3 WR's - even if they are substantially less talented.

Couple of times on long bombs from Wilson, I would notice more than 1 WR running totally free of coverage - no doubt a reflection of inexperienced safety play but troubling to say the least.

Yes, fair enough on the first point.

The Rice play was really just... troubling, to use your term.

McCourty released him to the safeties since they must've been playing zone. He was then left covering air. This was likely the team's response to Wilson's scramble threat. The play got much worse when Wilson bit on a move to the corner of the end zone and left Rice able to sprint past to get ~3-4 yards open in the end zone.

As bad as it was that the safeties were outplayed deep downfield, really the coaches could've probably called some more helpful schemes to keep the deep threat from being so crushing.

 

[Mike in 333]

So there seems to be a school of thought here that Tavon Wilson shows some promise and might be our DB of the future. It wasn't that long ago that Darius Butler was this guy and then Devin McCourty. This team takes promising backs, coaches them in a flawed technique, puts them on the field where their confidence is destroyed. Waive and repeat.
It's not just the CB's, our safety "play" is also about the worst we've had in years. The front 7 is a dominating unit so I can't believe it's a matter of poor talent selection; this goes directly to how these guys are being coached to play the position.

 

[in 12 we trust]

Remember when the Patriots were a defensive team?

It has been so long, I can't.
Sitting at the last two Patriots Super Bowls and seeing what we all thought are lucky pass plays beat us, seems less like luck now and more like a plan for other teams. Throw deep on the Patriots late in the game and they will screw it up.
How can the most basic play, not letting anyone get past you when a team needs a touchdown to win, not be executed ?

I am so angry !

 

[aluminum seats]

IMO Only an fool believes that a new secondary coach would turn this secondary around....

It's mind-boggling to me that you would categorically say that. If the Pats had a Dante-with-the-O-line coach for the secondary, you think "only a fool" believes that would change things?

 

[aluminum seats]

Re: Root of the secondary's problems: Evaluation of talent or coaching?

I don't get it either. The players coming in are good athletes and proven defensive backs.

Josh Boyer sucks.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

Re: Hire Jeremy Pruitt!

Can we draft the entire Alabama D whilst we're at it?

FS Lester. That's the guy I wanted last year. He has to be our pick.

 

[blackglass3]

So there seems to be a school of thought here that Tavon Wilson shows some promise and might be our DB of the future. It wasn't that long ago that Darius Butler was this guy and then Devin McCourty. This team takes promising backs, coaches them in a flawed technique, puts them on the field where their confidence is destroyed. Waive and repeat.
It's not just the CB's, our safety "play" is also about the worst we've had in years. The front 7 is a dominating unit so I can't believe it's a matter of poor talent selection; this goes directly to how these guys are being coached to play the position.

And, we had Dom Capers here to be the DB coach for a season and Belichick didn't like the way he was coaching them and essentially fired him. WHILE KEEPING DEAN PEES. It is mind boggling sometimes.

And sometimes I wonder how much DC'ing Dean Pees really did, and how much of it was Belichick going into the turtle shell. Pees Ravens D looks A-OK to me (although that might change with the injuries from yesterday).

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Root of the secondary's problems: Evaluation of talent or coaching?

It's definitely talent evaluation...

They've invested at least a 1st or second round pick in every draft since 2007:

2007. 1st on Meriweather, 6th on Mike Richardson
2008. 2nd on Wheatley, 4th on Wilhite
2009. 2nd on Chung, 2nd on Butler
2010. 1st on McCourty
2011. 2nd on Dowling (1st pick of the second round), 7th on Malcolm Williams
2012. 2nd on Wilson, 6th on Ebner, 7th on Dennard

Meriweather was neutral as neither a big hit or a big miss. He was better than what we've been fielding back there since him though. Richardson was a miss, but was a late round pick so it can be forgiven. Wheatley was a complete miss as was Wilhite. Chung has been awful in coverage and is a good in the box safety. In terms of pass defense, though, he's been a miss. Butler was a miss. McCourty can still learn to turn his head (and career) around, but has been a miss thus far. The jury is still out on Dowling but he is having trouble staying healthy. Same with Williams. And it's too early to judge the 2012 class.

Add to that moves such as letting go of James Sanders, and it's no wonder why the secondary is such garbage.

 

[Kontradiction]

All that said, I think I could forgive the bad talent evaluation should Ed Reed land in our laps off the free agent market at season's end.

 

[reflexblue]

Re: Remember when the Patriots were a defensive team?

It has been so long, I can't.
Sitting at the last two Patriots Super Bowls and seeing what we all thought are lucky pass plays beat us, seems less like luck now and more like a plan for other teams. Throw deep on the Patriots late in the game and they will screw it up.
How can the most basic play, not letting anyone get past you when a team needs a touchdown to win, not be executed ?

I am so angry !

I do and i remember when it changed it was after the 06 loss to the colts. The management decided to go offense instead of defense . In o7 they aquired Randy M and figured they could ride TBs arm like the colts did with manning. I thought it was a bad move the day it happened and obviously still do. Since this conversion to offense first when the chips are down so aren't the pats, its just to much pressure to put on one player Brady. The pats have run up gaudy numbers as far as wins and states but hasn't won a SB with this style. The colts and manning ran up similar numbers but only won one SB against a weak team.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Re: Remember when the Patriots were a defensive team?

Defense?......what is that?

 

[Miktik]

Sometimes I wonder if Belichick has never recovered from rules changes that favor the receiver. Bill's agressive secondary style that he used to beat the Colts/Rams all those earlier years doesn't fly now and I'm not sure he has been able to adapt besides loading up on offense. I'm still not quite sure if it's a teaching issue or talent issue in either case it's on Bill.

 

[Kontradiction]

Sometimes I wonder if Belichick has never recovered from rules changes that favor the receiver. Bill's agressive secondary style that he used to beat the Colts/Rams all those earlier years doesn't fly now and I'm not sure he has been able to adapt besides loading up on offense. I'm still not quite sure if it's a teaching issue or talent issue in either case it's on Bill.

It's a talent issue, no doubt. That said, it's a coaching issue, too, because it was the coaching staff that made the moves, the consequences of which we are still seeing out there to this day.

 

[PatsFan2]

That Ras-I Dowling pick is begining to sting we could have had two or three other impact players instead of him. Dowling have not live up to his Draft position.:snob:

 

[upstater1]

And, we had Dom Capers here to be the DB coach for a season and Belichick didn't like the way he was coaching them and essentially fired him. WHILE KEEPING DEAN PEES. It is mind boggling sometimes.

And sometimes I wonder how much DC'ing Dean Pees really did, and how much of it was Belichick going into the turtle shell. Pees Ravens D looks A-OK to me (although that might change with the injuries from yesterday).

Except none of that happened. What happened is that Capers had bigger jobs waiting for him.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

It's mind-boggling to me that you would categorically say that. If the Pats had a Dante-with-the-O-line coach for the secondary, you think "only a fool" believes that would change things?

The OL has not been anything near a weak spot as the secondary is

The Pats simply have failed at drafting or picking up a talented player at Safety or Corner for many years now

 

[upstater1]

I'm listening to WEEI and Mut & Merloni right now on the secondar; they say that Belichick is one of the better coaches in the league, but then they compare him to Norv Turner.

Had to turn it off.

Are Mut & Merloni really this bad?