The Official B!tch about the secondary/pass coverage thread

[reflexblue]

The Patriots draft/develop CB's the same way the Red Sox draft/develop SS's....

We all know BB has the final say but i would think that a certain person would be in charge a scouting LB, or QB, or DL, or........DB's lets say an area of expertise. The pats are good at drafting a number of positions QB, DL, LB, OL for example but terrible at D backs. Or maybe its the system they grade them by, whatever it is its not working. I'll give McCourty a pass because he was a zone coverage guy in college and his first year here. This year and last hes been asked to play man, not his forte.

 

[aluminum seats]

Samuel, Gay, Hobbs, Wilson, Bodden, Sanders, Meriweather......


They all played well, for at least a while, in New England. It's a talent issue.

If anything, saying guys played "well for awhile" before falling off/getting cut suggests a coaching issue, not a talent issue. In several of those cases, there was a regression.

Again, if there was a Dante-like coach for the secondary, I think there would be marked improvement in play.

 

[ensoul]

My favorite part of the game is when the seahawks threw that 50 yard bomb for a TD and Wilson looked behind him like there was supposed to be someone back there to help. Breaking news: Wilson you are the safety.

 

[Deus Irae]

If anything, saying guys played "well for awhile" before falling off/getting cut suggests a coaching issue, not a talent issue. In several of those cases, there was a regression.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from. The only reason I mentioned "for a while" was in the hopes of avoiding claims about Meriweather's last season because of his freelancing. None of the others mentioned were regressing due to coaching or any lack of it.

Again, if there was a Dante-like coach for the secondary, I think there would be marked improvement in play.

You mean that if the Patriots had arguably the best secondary coach in the NFL, it might make for a slightly better secondary with fewer busts? That makes sense, and it would be a real indictment of the secondary coaches the Patriots have had lately if a bunch of the Patriots busts went on to good careers after leaving, but they haven't.

Also, for all of Dante's excellence, he's had plenty of failures. You have to have some requisite levels of ability and coachability before you can be "coached up".

 

[aluminum seats]

I'm not sure where you're getting this from. The only reason I mentioned "for a while" was in the hopes of avoiding claims about Meriweather's last season because of his freelancing. None of the others mentioned were regressing due to coaching or any lack of it.



You mean that if the Patriots had arguably the best secondary coach in the NFL, it might make for a slightly better secondary with fewer busts? That makes sense, and it would be a real indictment of the secondary coaches the Patriots have had lately if a bunch of the Patriots busts went on to good careers after leaving, but they haven't.

Also, for all of Dante's excellence, he's had plenty of failures. You have to have some requisite levels of ability and coachability before you can be "coached up".

I'm saying get rid of Boyer--I'd be shocked if the secondary could get WORSE, put it that way.

When there's no penalty for failure, failures proliferate.

 

[condon84]

Not from I've seen. Do you have the All-22 view, though, because I may be wrong. But it looks like the Pats change things up back there a lot... to the same results.

No I don't haven't seen the All-22. I'm just commenting on what I've seen during normal telecast. They all seem to be on a trail technique and just wait to bat the ball down once the ball arrives. I'm assuming they're coached to focus on the receiver and not where the ball is, similar to what they've been doing the past two years.

 

[Modest]

Anyone remember Malcolm in the Middle?

This guy could score on our secondary- while asleep:

 

[aluminum seats]

Anyone remember Malcolm in the Middle?

This guy could score on our secondary- while asleep:

Yeah, you're probably right. McCourty would trip over the chair, Arrington and Chung would run into each other, and Ebner and Wilson would frantically run behind him as he wheeled into the end zone.

 

[Double TE]

Can anyone remember the last game the Pats D won? Meaning the offense was just out of sync and the D came up big and won the game! Used to happen often during the glory SB years.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm saying get rid of Boyer--I'd be shocked if the secondary could get WORSE, put it that way.

When there's no penalty for failure, failures proliferate.

You're saying get rid of Boyer, but you've got no reason to do so. If you want to talk about failure, talk about the failure of the team's talent evaluation and procurement for DBs in the post-2004 era. It's not just the last 3 years, after all, which is another reason why your griping about Boyer doesn't make sense.

 

[aluminum seats]

You're saying get rid of Boyer, but you've got no reason to do so.

The secondary sucks. Firing Boyer will certainly not hurt. It might help. At a minimum, it would show some level of responsibility/accountability on the part of Belichick that the coaching has not done the job.

Or fine, keep him forever, and we can just have these same conversations forever.

 

[zimmy]

Can anyone remember the last game the Pats D won? Meaning the offense was just out of sync and the D came up big and won the game! Used to happen often during the glory SB years.

I agree the D hasn't been great the last few years but the loss yesterday was a team loss. The D had a load of errors but actually came up big twice in the 4th quarter. First when Brady had his second brain fart and got picked off, Mayo saved the day with the forced fumble to bail out the offense. Then after the offense again couldn't get anything going with 5 minutes to go, they forced a three and out and gave the ball back to Brady again. I didn't expect to be defending the defense here but Brady/offense/coaching was more to blame for the loss than the D.

That said, the worry going forward has to be the pass D. I have confidence in the offense generally - although they have got to be better at closing games out.

 

[MoneyFX]

Patriots secondary: Making quarterbacks look like hall of famers since 2010.

 

[Deus Irae]

The secondary sucks. Firing Boyer will certainly not hurt. It might help. At a minimum, it would show some level of responsibility/accountability on the part of Belichick that the coaching has not done the job.

Or fine, keep him forever, and we can just have these same conversations forever.

"The secondary sucks" is not a reason to get rid of Boyer. If the secondary sucks because of coaching, you get rid of the coach, although then you have to figure out if the coaching issue is Boyer-specific or something coming from Belichick. In this case, nobody has come close to making a convincing case that the problem is Boyer's coaching.

As for having these same conversations forever, what else is new? There are always people who will say "Yes, but the free gold is heavy" and there are always people who will say "Yes, but the fatal poison reportedly tastes good", so the conversational back-and-forth is always going to be there.

Or don't you remember how this place was in 2007?

 

[aluminum seats]

"The secondary sucks" is not a reason to get rid of Boyer. If the secondary sucks because of coaching, you get rid of the coach, although then you have to figure out if the coaching issue is Boyer-specific or something coming from Belichick.

Here's where I am with this. I don't think anyone is making the case that the secondary is being helped by the coaching. I think, and I've said before, that saying the guys the Pats have cut haven't gone on to excel elsewhere is a fair point. I don't think it's determinative (that it's all a talent issue) but it's a reasonable point to make.

But I am pretty confident at this point that a coaching change wouldn't hurt. (If this all comes from Belichick, then the secondary will be pretty much doomed until he leaves; that means he's picking these guys AND coaching them, so there's nowhere to go.)

A change would show accountability, which Belichick always preaches. If a player's not doing the job, then try to find someone who can. The same should apply to coaches.

And most importantly, a new coach MIGHT help. It's possible. (I hope). I really don't think it could hurt.

So outside of making Josh Boyer and his family feel bad for awhile, I just don't see the downside of making a change.
__________________

 

[Deus Irae]

Here's where I am with this. I don't think anyone is making the case that the secondary is being helped by the coaching. I think, and I've said before, that saying the guys the Pats have cut haven't gone on to excel elsewhere is a fair point. I don't think it's determinative (that it's all a talent issue) but it's a reasonable point to make.

But I am pretty confident at this point that a coaching change wouldn't hurt. (If this all comes from Belichick, then the secondary will be pretty much doomed until he leaves; that means he's picking these guys AND coaching them, so there's nowhere to go.)

A change would show accountability, which Belichick always preaches. If a player's not doing the job, then try to find someone who can. The same should apply to coaches.

And most importantly, a new coach MIGHT help. It's possible. (I hope). I really don't think it could hurt.

So outside of making Josh Boyer and his family feel bad for awhile, I just don't see the downside of making a change.
__________________

This isn't a case of not being able to fire 53 players, so you fire the coach. This is an assistant. You don't fire them because the players they're trying to coach are a bunch of stiffs. Firing an assistant who's not doing a bad job doesn't show accountability. It shows scapegoating. It's just "fire the offensive coordinator!" on a lower level.

In other words, it's really, really, really stupid.

 

[DSting]

I wonder what impact Dimitroff’s leaving had? Maybe one of his strengths was talent identification with DBs. He also ignored BB’s recommendation about moving up to draft Julio Jones. Both WR and DB seem to be problems in the draft for us.

 

[aluminum seats]

This isn't a case of not being able to fire 53 players, so you fire the coach. This is an assistant. You don't fire them because the players they're trying to coach are a bunch of stiffs. Firing an assistant who's not doing a bad job doesn't show accountability. It shows scapegoating. It's just "fire the offensive coordinator!" on a lower level.

In other words, it's really, really, really stupid.

As I said, if Belichick thinks Boyer is doing a good job, then the point is moot anyway--the secondary will suck forever and ever, amen. But hopefully Belichick will see that the coaching clearly could be improved there, and will make a change.

If he doesn't, that would be really, really, really, really stupid. (See, my point must be very strong, since I used "really" FOUR times. Very difficult to beat.)

 

[Deus Irae]

As I said, if Belichick thinks Boyer is doing a good job, then the point is moot anyway--the secondary will suck forever and ever, amen.

There's no equation of BB thinks Boyer is good, therefore the secondary will suck forever. Your point is nonsensical.

But hopefully Belichick will see that the coaching clearly could be improved there, and will make a change.

You don't know that the coaching "clearly could be improved". You're talking out of your ass. For example, the infamous "trail technique" is being taught because that's what BB wants. It's entirely possible that Boyer is doing a solid/great job teaching precisely what BB wants taught and that, either because of the talent or the things BB wants taught, it's not translating to success on the field. You simply have no idea what's going on.

If this is such a sore point with you, I suggest you call into a Boston talk radio station. There are plenty of former players who'll be able to discuss this with better knowledge than you and I have about the specific inner workings of the New England Patriots.

If he doesn't, that would be really, really, really, really stupid. (See, my point must be very strong, since I used "really" FOUR times. Very difficult to beat.)

Yes, but my point was an accurate one. Yours is not.

 

[aluminum seats]

Your point is nonsensical.

You're talking out of your ass.

Wow, such elevated discourse you're offering here. Really adds a lot to the board.