The Official B!tch about the secondary/pass coverage thread

[mgteich]

Dante has developed players like Neal, Connolly, Wendell, Thomas, Cannon (work in progress) and others. The secondary coaches have developed Arrington and Moore.

We seem to need
1) better scouting of college defensive players
2) better evaluation of draft prospects
3) better coaching of the secondary
4) a moe active role by the DC and the coach when there are problems

McCourty, Dowling, Chung and Wilson are top draft choices. Gregory is an experienced veteran. This should be a decent base for a secondary if the players were evaluated and developed well.

We should be doing better.

We are getting OK value from our UDFA's and low draft cholces: Arrington, Dennard, and Moore. I don't think the issue is the play of the backup corners.

The buck stops with Belichick. He certainly has the ability to hire and fire. He could add coaches. And more importantly, he and the DC could step in and help out. He and the DC could work to develop better coaching of the secondary.
===================
The BOTTOM LINE is that better play by Brady or the special teams could have won the game. HOWEVER, even if we were 5-1 at this point, we would still ahve the same glaring problem we've had for several years. And to think that we used to complain about Samuel and Hobbs.

No. The talent simply isn't there.

 

[ATippett56]

One should consider trying to rebuild the New England Patriots defensive secondary utilizing the following as the foundation:

Rookie Cornerbacks

Dennard

Rookie Safeties

Wilson
Ebner (special teams)

Veteran Cornerbacks

Cole (special teams)

With cornerbacks Arrington, Dowling, McCourty, Moore; one could retain McCourty as a starting cornerback with Moore as the nickel cornerback during the interim.

With safeties Chung, Gregory; one should consider the alternatives (i.e., the 2013 NFL Draft).

 

[ATippett56]

The BOTTOM LINE is that better play by Brady or the special teams could have won the game. HOWEVER, even if we were 5-1 at this point, we would still ahve the same glaring problem we've had for several years. And to think that we used to complain about Samuel and Hobbs.

Yet the New England Patriots are 3-3. Now that you mention Hobbs and Samuel, this season seems eerily familiar to 2005.

 

[Deus Irae]

Disagree. The talent is there. They've spend high picks on the secondary for years. It's a secondary coaching issue.

Even back in 2007 when this secondary had talent like Asante and Rodney Harrison, the defense coughed up the lead in the big game bc the overall scheme is too vanilla. Since 2007 we've had good talent come in but they regress year after year because the coaching in the secondary is terrible. They need to bring in a legit secondary coach and fix key mistakes that have been happening every year.

The defense coughed up the lead in 2007 because there were holds that weren't called, Samuel blew a coverage, a scrub made a miracle catch against his helmet and a badly injured Hobbs was left on an island when the Patriots called an all-out blitz and didn't get to the QB.

Your premise fails.

 

[mgteich]

Obviously, we will discuss this at length during the bye week and during the offseason.

I think that you overestimate how many youngsters can be integrated into a defense.

CORNER
I suspect that McCourty, Dennard and Dowling will be back for 2013. They are capable of being our nickel and dime back. We need a veteran corner or two. I'm fine with drafting another top corner as we do every year, but that strategy hasn't worked well; that strategy requires us to be able to coach up the rookies and then develop them. You have us keeping Moore instead of Dowling; that could happen. I would prefer a better veteran if Dowling doesn't work out.

SAFETY
Wilson is a keeper. After Wilson, we need lots of help. I find it likely that Gregory will end up staying. We should definitely draft a couple of safeties.

SPECIAL TEAMS
i'm fine with Cole and Ebner.

COACHING
I would bring in an ex-head coach as secondary coach and assistant DC. I would also upgrade the scouting and evaluation team. Something is clearly missing.

BOTTOM LINE
Our approaches are almost identical. HOWEVER, I don't much change from the strategy of the past 6 years. Belichick has to be able to figure out what the problem is and fix it. Otherwise, we will continue to be over-rated as the best team (or one of the very best teams) in the nfl each year, and continue to disappoint at the end.

One should consider trying to rebuild the New England Patriots defensive secondary utilizing the following as the foundation:

Rookie Cornerbacks

Dennard

Rookie Safeties

Wilson
Ebner (special teams)

Veteran Cornerbacks

Cole (special teams)

With cornerbacks Arrington, Dowling, McCourty, Moore; one could retain McCourty as a starting cornerback with Moore as the nickel cornerback during the interim.

With safeties Chung, Gregory; one should consider the alternatives (i.e., the 2013 NFL Draft).

 

[randomk1]

And to think that we used to complain about Samuel and Hobbs.

In other news. Samuel runs back a pick six in the 4th.

 

[ATippett56]

CORNER
I suspect that McCourty, Dennard and Dowling will be back for 2013. They are capable of being our nickel and dime back. We need a veteran corner or two. I'm fine with drafting another top corner as we do every year, but that strategy hasn't worked well; that strategy requires us to be able to coach up the rookies and then develop them. You have us keeping Moore instead of Dowling; that could happen. I would prefer a better veteran if Dowling doesn't work out.

What has Dowling shown to date that he is worth a roster spot? Arrington beat out Dowling in training camp as the starting right cornerback. Arrington was benched against Seattle and Dennard has leapfrogged Dowling as the starting right cornerback. Dowling is currently a defensive secondary enigma. Sterling Moore will be an ERFA, so he will be cheaper to retain than Arrington.

SAFETY
Wilson is a keeper. After Wilson, we need lots of help. I find it likely that Gregory will end up staying. We should definitely draft a couple of safeties.

Keeping Gregory on the roster is maintaining the status quo however his future may depend on the number of safeties drafted and/or signed in unrestricted free agency.

SPECIAL TEAMS
i'm fine with Cole and Ebner.

I have no problems whatsoever with a core of special teams players.

BOTTOM LINE
Our approaches are almost identical. HOWEVER, I don't much change from the strategy of the past 6 years. Belichick has to be able to figure out what the problem is and fix it. Otherwise, we will continue to be over-rated as the best team (or one of the very best teams) in the nfl each year, and continue to disappoint at the end.

Unless Bill Belichick is willing to splash some cash in free agency, for instance safety Kenny Phillips of the New York Giants, Bill Belichick will continue to rebuild the New England Patriots defense thru the NFL Draft.

Kenny Phillips - New York Giants - 2012 Player Profile - Rotoworld.com

 

[JDot]

The Pats secondary is awful. And the Pats, and Pats fans are just going to have to deal with it. It is what it is..

 

[ATippett56]

It Is What It Is » Inside the numbers: Patriots chase history with woeful pass defense

• The defense has permitted an average of 288.8 passing yards per game, 28th in the NFL. It is the second highest passing yards per game average of a Patriots team through six games in franchise history. (Last year’s Patriots team allowed 322.2 passing yards per game in the first six contests of the season — the second highest yield through six games of any team in the Super Bowl era.)
  
• Opponents are completing 64.4 percent of passes, 25th in the NFL
  
• The Patriots have allowed 33 completions of 20+ yards, first in the NFL — and it’s not even close. Second highest total: 26.
  
• Opponents have a 100.9 QB rating, 27th in the NFL. That mark would shatter the previous record for the worst ever permitted by the Patriots in a season (92.2, 1972).
  
• The Patriots have allowed 79 passing 1st downs, 27th in the NFL.

 

[randomk1]

Damn...those are some depressing numbers. And it's not like we have faced top notch QBs. They are actually pretty ****ty

Locker,Kolb,Flacco,Fitzpatrick,Wilson, Peyton.

 

[TP76]

It Is What It Is » Inside the numbers: Patriots chase history with woeful pass defense

Downright depressing.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Downright depressing.

That said, some of those are at least a bit misleading: part of the reason that the pass first downs is high is that the run first downs isn't (the Pats are around #10 in that stat).

OTOH, the 33 long pass plays (5.5/game) *is* concerning, and I'm guessing BB wants to see that rate come down, too.

 

[goheels22002]

Re: Root of the secondary's problems: Evaluation of talent or coaching?

They've invested at least a 1st or second round pick in every draft since 2007:

2007. 1st on Meriweather, 6th on Mike Richardson
2008. 2nd on Wheatley, 4th on Wilhite
2009. 2nd on Chung, 2nd on Butler
2010. 1st on McCourty
2011. 2nd on Dowling (1st pick of the second round), 7th on Malcolm Williams
2012. 2nd on Wilson, 6th on Ebner, 7th on Dennard

So in the last 6 years, they've invested two 1st round and five 2nd round draft picks. Off the top of my head the only significant contracts during that time were for Steve Gregory (3yrs $9 million), Sanders (3yrs $9 million, Springs 3yrs $10.5 million and Bodden 4 yrs $22 million - all three were gone within a year of signing their contract.

So we've got two one's and five 2nds as well as roughly $50 million dollars in free agent contracts invested in this secondary.

So is it talent evaluation or something else? Is it how their coached up? Is it scheme? Are they thinking too much? Even when they have coverage, they don't seem to have a clue where the ball is. It's an automatic completion or a penalty.

One thing for certain is that the secondary is this teams Achilles's heel and whatever they're doing ain't working.

I don't get it either. The players coming in are good athletes and proven defensive backs.

What is with the big play? Russell hit three different receivers for plays that went more than 46 yards. You make those three plays and the Patriots not only win the game, they shut down that offense - three plays accounted for one-half of the Seahawks passing offense.

 

[patsfan-1982]

on a lighter note well kinda lol Chandler Jones is in the top 10 in sacks and #1 in FF's he would be leading the NFL in sacks if he had a secondary that can cover for more then 2 sec lol

 

[BrickPat]

Re: Wilson goes off! Oh what a suprise!

Agree with this. It's getting really eff'n old wasting year after year of Brady's career by giving him a defense that can't seal the deal. Really starting to wonder if BB is even capable of putting together a decent secondary at this point. This **** is just awful.

Agree 100% however Brady didn't do himself any favors the way he played yesterday.

 

[Creative Username]

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You know I wasn't here when Dan Orlovsky was throwing for 300+ against us but I bet there was the exact same thing going on on these boards. This is pathetic. If the secondary was so bad, and we are a mediocre team, what happened since last year? We didn't lose anyone significant in the secondary and added a few new young bodies. I don't think it's possible for them to have gotten worse. Statistically, it's actually better than last year. And making Ryan Fitzpatrick look like Dan Marino happened week 4, and week 3 last year. It's the same team. You "Patriots are mediocre" fans are just too spoiled to see that NOTHING has changed.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

I am at the point where I want to see the opposing offensive coordinator call long bombs on every single play against the NE defense. Such a coordinator will be rewarded by setting the NFL single-game passing yardage record and/or single-game penalty yardage drawn record.

That said, I still first blame the offensive coaching and Brady for this loss. For the Nth time in a row, they can't get the one first down that would ice the game. (And after the defense did hand the O multiple chances to ice the game.) And that's even before we get to the crappy QB decision-making today and the beyond-crappy clock "management".

 

[patsfan-1982]

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You know I wasn't here when Dan Orlovsky was throwing for 300+ against us but I bet there was the exact same thing going on on these boards. This is pathetic. If the secondary was so bad, and we are a mediocre team, what happened since last year? We didn't lose anyone significant in the secondary and added a few new young bodies. I don't think it's possible for them to have gotten worse. Statistically, it's actually better than last year. And making Ryan Fitzpatrick look like Dan Marino happened week 4, and week 3 last year. It's the same team. You "Patriots are mediocre" fans are just too spoiled to see that NOTHING has changed.

i find it funny that you ignored the thread first then posted your Opinion lol

if you look it up the pats where 5-1 at this time last year and they alredy have as many losses as they had all last year so i guess they are not the same... and calling the 28th pass defense bad is not being a "spoiled fan" it's saying the truth

 

[SeymourTrophies]

I'm tired of Pat Chung. I can't think of one time he has had a pass defended in his career.

At one point this season, the secondary was competitive. Between the mobility of Wilson buying time and absolutely zero quality safety play, our secondary was not close to competitive. The best thing about the way our safety selection has dwindled is that it's sink or swim for Wilson and Ebner. We find out what we have by default. Last year that didn't work too well.

If the heave and pray continues to work, that is how our super bowl losers curse asserts itself. Russell freaking Wilson. Still not sure what Dennard did that was illegal on the Edwards TD. I did see a pretty serious pushoff by Edwards though. Mike Pereira thought so too.

 

[livinginthe past]

Some of the secondary (pun intended) conclusions drawn from our pass defense problems are downright embarrassing.

Like a bunch of pre-programmed robots, out come the clichés, "Belichick is too arrogant to fix this" only a matter of time before "Kraft is cheap", I guess.

I am what you may label a homer, I definitely prefer to look a things with a more measured perspective - one that takes into account how much all teams struggle against the pass these days, for example.

Having said that, there is one common theme that I cannot disagree with:

The DB's on this team do not attempt locate the ball when they are in coverage.

It is fair to say that many other teams have DB's who definitely locate the ball (while keeping the WR in the peripheral) - look at the 1st Brady INT yesterday - the Seattle DB was looking back the whole time - he had great coverage and was also watching the QB.

I have lost count of the amount of times Patriots DB's fail to run around even once - and end up turning hail mary type passes into easy completions or pass interference penalties.

The coaching ethos for the defense DOES have to change - I believe we are already in a 'worst case' scenario as far as pass D goes - they need to accept that they'll give up the odd completion or long TD on a double move by the WR and make a point of occasionally looking back for the ball.

Wilson yesterday was operating out of a college level offense - he was throwing rainbows up for grabs with the sure knowledge that the odds of a pick were very low - the odds of a big completion or intereference penalty were very high.

Teams will soon abandon the pretense of running into the strenght of our defense - the run D - and just air it out all the time - on this current evidence they would be mad not to.

To add some context: every team in the NFL has pretty big flaws right now.

That includes the Texans, Ravens, Giants, 49ers and Packers to name but a few - they all have issues with either stopping the run, running the ball - as usual it will be the team that masks their deficiency the best that will win it all.