Hoyer "A Most Marketable Backup"

[MoLewisrocks]

The Chiefs have not won a playoff game in 19 years. Cassel really stunk in that playoff game too.

Cant Passel.

Cassel has been the least of the Chief's problems for the last 19 years - or the last 4. But if since you obviously don't get what the real problems have been there is little point reiterating them for you.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Blaine Gabbert has not played a full NFL season as of yet where Cassel is entering his 4th year with KC. After paying him 40 million, the Chiefs still have questions at QB. Cassel is the worst QB in the AFCW.

Like Sanchez, Cassel is in a do or die season. He is a game manager.

How do you know Gabbert won't turn into Cassel 2.0? It's relatively easy to criticize a decision afterwards but the people who made it didnt have that information at the time.

That said, Cassel has disappointed to some extent but their O-line also stinks, he's also had to deal with multiple OCs and systems, how do you expect an offense to run well when they don't have a chance to get settled on what they're doing? Give Cassel a better O-line and OC consistency and he'll perform a lot better.

 

[lurker1965]

The Chiefs have not won a playoff game in 19 years. Cassel really stunk in that playoff game too.

Cant Passel.

1) Do you think that idiot "coach" they had that got into fights with players on the sideline - not just Cassel - might have had a tad to do with that?

2) Name the QBs UNDOUBTEDLY better than Cassel if I miss any: Brady, Roethlesberger, Rodgers, Brees. (I said UNDOUBTABLY. Peyton might not be Peyton this year and Schaub has to re-prove himself post-injury too.) You want to add Eli, Rivers, that red head from Cincy, Stafford, or even Matt Ryan; OK. I got 9. I'd argue that I need to see more from Cam Newton, Peyton, Schaub, any rookie like RG3 or Luck. I'd laugh at Flacco or Alex Smith. Who am I missing? I got him as a middling QB in a division where that might be good enough. For a 2nd rounder instead of drafting a QB in round #1.

3) Who, that is available, would be better?

Oh, that playoff game you dismiss because the Raven's defense got the best of Cassel. Um, add 1 year to that defense's age and they still flustered Brady. -Just sayin'.

 

[patsinthesnow]

If only it were that simple. He isn't interested in extending. And if he was you'd have to re-evaluate his compete level. These guys all want to start and if they don't believe they can then they are probably right. Last one I can think of who extended past a rookie deal was Sorgi in Indy, and he was gone a year later. Plenty of time to be a career backup after you've tried and failed as a starter... Then you're happy to man the clipboard for several hundred thousand per. Chris Redman, who couldn't make the roster here, is now that guy in Atlanta and happy to not have to sell insurance...

Did you happen to catch Hoyer getting Gronk his league leading yardage at the tail end of the last game of last season...coming in cold off the bench. I guarantee you Bill didn't miss that... It was a test and while the game wasn't in question something that mattered to the team was...and he aced it.

I'm not so sure, if your Hoyer, and the pats offer you 3 years 12 million, do you take it? You get paid 4 million being a backup QB, and you turn 30 years old when Brady is 38, a good chance to take the helm after being on the bench for 7 years. (and if not, you're essentially a 30 year old FA QB that spent 7 years behind Brady/BB, talk about hot commodity)

If Hoyer gets a Flynn type offer in 2013 FA then of course he'd take it, but I'm not so sure he will with a lack of game film.

Patsfanken, I agree that's why his trade value is low, I was just citing reasons why I really like him. If he ever got a starting game or two like Flynn I think his value would go way up.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I hope you did not just say that Cassel is better than Cam newton. The rookie superstar phenom Cam Newton. That guy?

Let's be realistic. Cassel is a guy who played well in 2008 when Brady went down. Had a good season in 2010 but sandwiched that with bad seasons in 2009 and 2011.

QBRs of 89, 69, 93, and 76 respectively. Considering that Cassel only cost a 2nd round pick, and he has the potential to bounce back to 90ish form, the Chiefs got a pretty decent deal. But let's not pretend that Cassel is some kind of gamebreaker, franchise QB. He hasn't shown that kind of ability. He's more like a Trent Dilfer so far. Ok, maybe not as bad as Trent Dilfer.

Matt Cassel NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

1) Do you think that idiot "coach" they had that got into fights with players on the sideline - not just Cassel - might have had a tad to do with that?

2) Name the QBs UNDOUBTEDLY better than Cassel if I miss any: Brady, Roethlesberger, Rodgers, Brees. (I said UNDOUBTABLY. Peyton might not be Peyton this year and Schaub has to re-prove himself post-injury too.) You want to add Eli, Rivers, that red head from Cincy, Stafford, or even Matt Ryan; OK. I got 9. I'd argue that I need to see more from Cam Newton, Peyton, Schaub, any rookie like RG3 or Luck. I'd laugh at Flacco or Alex Smith. Who am I missing? I got him as a middling QB in a division where that might be good enough. For a 2nd rounder instead of drafting a QB in round #1.

3) Who, that is available, would be better?

Oh, that playoff game you dismiss because the Raven's defense got the best of Cassel. Um, add 1 year to that defense's age and they still flustered Brady. -Just sayin'.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I hope you did not just say that Cassel is better than Cam newton. The rookie superstar phenom Cam Newton. That guy?

Let's be realistic. Cassel is a guy who played well in 2008 when Brady went down. Had a good season in 2010 but sandwiched that with bad seasons in 2009 and 2011.

QBRs of 89, 69, 93, and 76 respectively. Considering that Cassel only cost a 2nd round pick, and he has the potential to bounce back to 90ish form, the Chiefs got a pretty decent deal. But let's not pretend that Cassel is some kind of gamebreaker, franchise QB. He hasn't shown that kind of ability. He's more like a Trent Dilfer so far. Ok, maybe not as bad as Trent Dilfer.

Matt Cassel NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

How good is their O-line? I don't watch a lot of Chiefs games but the ones I've seen have Cassel getting assaulted behind a very porous O-line. In 2010, after Mankins returned fresh as a daisy, TFB took off. It's not a coincidence.

 

[Off The Grid]

Cant...

As are ALL your posts, my friend.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I just can't believe the Colts ever let Jim Sorgi go. Karma, mutha****as!

But seriously folks...

I had to wonder when I read things like Mallet being late on his release, etc. etc. etc., whether there's a mental stability in a Hoyer that you think of as just a "given" but which is actually rare.

How can you have a QB who keeps his edge, year after year, showing whatever flashes he has the opportunity to show... and have him not lose that effort toward his own development? You're sort of off in the wilderness developing yourself, since you don't get the snaps to develop at the truly NFL (starting) level.

Ridiculously, it seems, that special characteristic is completely valueless once your turn comes -- then it's time to shine.

I wonder if the Mallets of the world could shine as, say, Dolphin QBs, but might not be able to "make it" as a beta. Whereas a guy like Hoyer, you have to wonder whether the "ascension" implies a whole different skill-set. I.e., having poise, touch, all those things when you know it doesn't matter might be a whole other thing (sorry Brian) for many QBs. I guess everybody says that, when they say "can he make it at the next level."

Eh well, special kind of hell, I guess. If you're going to have a special kind of hell it's probably nice to get several hundred thousands of dollars a year to be there.

I guess the Hoyers of the world "get" the difference between that and 9 bucks an hour bagging groceries... and we have indications that Mallett doesn't. But I'm overreading one report... I'd love to see Mallett thrive, of course.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I'm not so sure, if your Hoyer, and the pats offer you 3 years 12 million, do you take it? You get paid 4 million being a backup QB, and you turn 30 years old when Brady is 38, a good chance to take the helm after being on the bench for 7 years. (and if not, you're essentially a 30 year old FA QB that spent 7 years behind Brady/BB, talk about hot commodity)

If Hoyer gets a Flynn type offer in 2013 FA then of course he'd take it, but I'm not so sure he will with a lack of game film.

Patsfanken, I agree that's why his trade value is low, I was just citing reasons why I really like him. If he ever got a starting game or two like Flynn I think his value would go way up.

They aren't going to pay a backup QB $4M per. And again, if he were interested they'd probably decide to rethink him... Starters have to be driven to. Even then they don't always make it. Then they become veteran jags, and it's acceptable (even desirable) then because you want them to be team players and not controversey stirers and you pay those guys $1-3M to be backups because you have serious concerns about your actual starter...

Oddly I could see Cassel returning here as a backup in a year or two (and bridge player in transition) if things don't go well in KC this season (which is entirely possible with Daboll at the helm on offense and Bowe still on the roster). Could see a similar fate down the road with Hoyer if he gets his shot and things just don't pan out elsewhere. That's actually kind of a neat situation Belichick may be engineering where he has former QB's to tap the same way he once had former LB's and defensive players he coached at other stops he could bring in here as veteran role players...

I think the most Bill has ever invested in a backup relatively speaking (given the cap was in the $70's then and we were in cap heck) was Huard. And when he wanted too much more to extend beyond his 3 years $2.1M, Bill said sayonara. And drafted Cassel and brought Flutie in to provide some veteran presence for less than Huard wanted and with better upside. Huard got even more in KC over time, but when push came to shove he was never more than an expensive backup. Pioli cut him just before trading for Cassel.

When Bill had tapped him for duty here in 2001 he was a former UDFA coming off of being Marino's backup and a very decent one on Marino's back 9 that the Dolphins chose to extend only then to pass over for apparently better looking former backup FA Jay Fiedler...even though Huard had performed well as a spot starter and JUST signed a 2 year extension.

Huard still wanted to start and I'm sure Bill tapped him because he'd seen him start and thought he had quality to be starter insurance at least in an interim sense and he had only the Statue and Cinderella on the roster at the time and he couldn't be sure yet what Brady was although according to Michael Holley he and Charlie were already pretty sure what Drew wasn't.

He's not in that kind of volitile situation this time around. Although if Mallett doesn't show tremendous developmental strides in the next 8 weeks Bill may be in a bit of a predicament going forward. But likley not enough of a one to lead him to offer Hoyer OR ANYONE multiple millions or years while he has Brady taking up $22M against a flat cap and headed for an extension that will likely average within spitting distance of whatever Brees finally squeezes out of Micky Loomis... He'll just have to find another Cassel or Hoyer or two in the 2013 draft or UDFA and maybe talk someone like old Noodle Arm out of early retirement as the emergency stop gap vet.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I just can't believe the Colts ever let Jim Sorgi go. Karma, mutha****as!

But seriously folks...

I had to wonder when I read things like Mallet being late on his release, etc. etc. etc., whether there's a mental stability in a Hoyer that you think of as just a "given" but which is actually rare.

How can you have a QB who keeps his edge, year after year, showing whatever flashes he has the opportunity to show... and have him not lose that effort toward his own development? You're sort of off in the wilderness developing yourself, since you don't get the snaps to develop at the truly NFL (starting) level.

Ridiculously, it seems, that special characteristic is completely valueless once your turn comes -- then it's time to shine.

I wonder if the Mallets of the world could shine as, say, Dolphin QBs, but might not be able to "make it" as a beta. Whereas a guy like Hoyer, you have to wonder whether the "ascension" implies a whole different skill-set. I.e., having poise, touch, all those things when you know it doesn't matter might be a whole other thing (sorry Brian) for many QBs. I guess everybody says that, when they say "can he make it at the next level."

Eh well, special kind of hell, I guess. If you're going to have a special kind of hell it's probably nice to get several hundred thousands of dollars a year to be there.

I guess the Hoyers of the world "get" the difference between that and 9 bucks an hour bagging groceries... and we have indications that Mallett doesn't. But I'm overreading one report... I'd love to see Mallett thrive, of course.

Au contraire. If that were the case Brady never would have gotten through Michigan let alone to where he is today. It's his consistent ability to remain poised and focused and driven to be better as opposed to resting on his substantial laurels that makes him different. Even Peyton and Eli have degrees of that (OK, Eli only to some extent and it took a while...and Peyton is the OCD version). All too often the most highly touted prospects lack it or are so conditioned to believe their success is inherent (talent) so predictable it needs no refining (just better support from a FO...) that they develop ego issues that make them difficult to coach. And sometimes they aren't even remotely as talented as they were perceived to be, their success being the product of a system (the fear for some with Mallett...Petrino made most of his college QB's look statistically good only it has yet to translate at the next level for any of them - might well be what transpired at USC under Pete, too, where a supposed coin flip was all that seperated Cassel the Wal Mart bagger from being a starter for a National Champion or two on draft day).

I don't think it's simply about caring or not caring, either. I think it's about capacity and internal drive and how you're wired. Mallett may in fact be a humble kid and a hard worker and he may possess the drive to turn every corner in time. Or he may just be a talented kid with a big arm who got by on it. It's just not a really good sign that after a year on the roster and hundreds of practices and thousands of hours of exposure to Brady and Hoyer he doesn't apparently look or perform any differently yet... Those two made huge strides in the same time frame or less. As did Cassel. Some others didn't and they aren't here anymore. Or anywhere else unless you count Arena Football.

 

[mayoclinic]

FWIW, Jeff Howe reiterates the theme that a good showing by Ryan Mallett in training camp could lead to the Pats trading Brian Hoyer:

Options at QB for Patriots - BostonHerald.com

There will be a roster crunch no matter how you look at it, and the Pats will probably carry 16 players at QB, RB, WR and TE. So for the Pats to keep 3 QBs they would have to be convinced that the value would outweigh keeping an extra offensive skill player. That could easily happen, but a great showing by Mallett could possibly make Hoyer expendable, and a crappy showing could make Mallett expendable.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I believe he also had an alternate scenario where got Mallett cut... I don't anticipate either scenario unfolding.

A month before TC in the dead zone period, lots of things could happen... Doesn't mean any of them are likely to.

I recall in 2008 during this period it was a given in the opinion of most media that Cassel was hanging by a thread because KOC had been drafted in the third and the team LOVED Gutierrez...or so Mike Reiss was told and everyone else then parroted. Amazing how wrong that insight was and how the career's of those 3 unfolded thereafter. Howe is basing his what if scenario on the fact that Bill lumped Mallett into the all inclusive group of second year players who are working hard and improving...

 

[hogtusk]

Blog along the same line.
Ryan Mallett’s progress may give Patriots options | ProFootballTalk

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Blog along the same line.
Ryan Mallett’s progress may give Patriots options | ProFootballTalk

This comment was a bit LOLworthy:

Brett Favre had character issues, too. I’m still a Mallet believer. The guy is an out and out stud QB on the field. Clean up his off the field “concerns” and he could be very good. If NE is smart, they do with Mallet what GB did with Rodgers. I’m sure the chowder heads would gladly see a transition in bean town as smooth as the one that happened in GB.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

This comment was a bit LOLworthy:

I don't think it is a good comparison. Favre was a flawed QB and Rodgers was a dramatic improvement. Brady is one of the best of all time.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Yeah, I believe earlier this week Favre did an interview where he said that the QB's he admires most are Brady and Manning (Peyton) and the one who most resembles him is...Romo.

 

[mayoclinic]

Howe outlines the different scenarios for Hoyer and Mallett:

BostonHerald.com - Blogs: The Blitz» Blog Archive » As promised: Taking one more look at Brian Hoyer and Ryan Mallett

There's one other I can think of: the Pats don't like what they see of Mallett and dump him for what they can get. That seems unlikely, since if the Pats trade Mallett and Hoyer leaves after 2012 they have no backup option for 2013.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Howe outlines the different scenarios for Hoyer and Mallett:

BostonHerald.com - Blogs: The Blitz» Blog Archive » As promised: Taking one more look at Brian Hoyer and Ryan Mallett

There's one other I can think of: the Pats don't like what they see of Mallett and dump him for what they can get. That seems unlikely, since if the Pats trade Mallett and Hoyer leaves after 2012 they have no backup option for 2013.

It's odd he left it out today after mentioning it yesterday. Regurgitated columns...the bain of the dead period.

Thing is, they've already stared down that gun barrel and at a time when Brady was coming back from a year on IR. And they didn't blink. Traded Cassel, which left them with two guys they had already decided were not fits or developing (KOC and Gutz who was cut and picked back up only after the injury). Both were cut after Brady returned. That's how they ended up with Hoyer as the lone #2. Now, you're not always going to land that diamond in the rough who can pick it up sufficiently here (see KOC and Gutz et al), but they could alway then decide to dip their toes back into the veteran JAG market or tap a player whose development was blocked elsewhere that they had prior interest in.

The goal right now, but it will take a back seat to getting ready for this season, has to be for Josh to be able to develop Mallett at minimum to the point he can be a viable #2 here for at least one season. Thereafter there will be competition at the position and I would anticipate a QB being drafted late in the 2013 draft. Oddly I think by the time crunch time arrives and we are really looking for Brady's replacement there may be some gap bridging veteran JAGS on the market like Cassel and Hoyer...