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Good discussion.

My bias as someone who has been directly affected by piracy was preventing me from seeing very real concerns about SOPA.

I am happy to say that my bias as a native New Englander and Pats fan has ruled the day in the sense that I respect my fellow Pats fans opinions highly.

I am changing my mind and now saying scrap this bill. This is due to the excellent points brought up by many of you guys. So thank you. I knew that we had very intelligent and thoughtful posters here and this thread has really shone a light on that.

If the bill has even the slightest chance of abuse that could ostensibly be used to harm sites like this, then I am definitely against it.

My boss and many of my coworkers will be mad but I think that it's worth risking their wrath in the interest of the overall health of the internet.

You're a good man Ian and I respect your hard work and faithfulness in maintaining this fine site.

Thanks Rojo, that's really cool of you. It's always great to see someone who is interested in having a real debate on an important topic. FWIW, there's a lot of us out there who would be in favor of a bill that protected intellectual property online in ways that weren't so open to (inevitable) abuse at the hands of copyright holders.

I think it's safe to say that we all want to see content creators make money. Unfortunately, that means that the cartels at the top also have to make money, but if that's the cost of getting the real creators paid, then so be it. (Side note: did you know that the movie industry took root in Hollywood because being so far to the southwest made it harder for Thomas Edison to sue the movie studios for ripping off his patents? Really gives this whole debate some new context, IMO...)

Getting there, I think, will entail some combination of legal protection, embracing technology within the industry, and accepting that there's a new equilibrium point for what people are willing to pay, and it isn't what it used to be. It's no different than any other industry, across the United States, that's been hit hard in the last 20-30 years.
 
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Good discussion.

My bias as someone who has been directly affected by piracy was preventing me from seeing very real concerns about SOPA.

I am happy to say that my bias as a native New Englander and Pats fan has ruled the day in the sense that I respect my fellow Pats fans opinions highly.

I am changing my mind and now saying scrap this bill. This is due to the excellent points brought up by many of you guys. So thank you. I knew that we had very intelligent and thoughtful posters here and this thread has really shone a light on that.

If the bill has even the slightest chance of abuse that could ostensibly be used to harm sites like this, then I am definitely against it.

My boss and many of my coworkers will be mad but I think that it's worth risking their wrath in the interest of the overall health of the internet.

You're a good man Ian and I respect your hard work and faithfulness in maintaining this fine site.

I appreciate that. As I said my big concern was just the potential of having to start dealing with any ridiculous legal issues. We have enough headaches - we don't need any others
 
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I appreciate that. As I said my big concern was just the potential of having to start dealing with any ridiculous legal issues. We have enough headaches - we don't need any others

Now back to the purpose of this site, ridiculing the Jets and their fans!
 
Good discussion.

My bias as someone who has been directly affected by piracy was preventing me from seeing very real concerns about SOPA.

I am happy to say that my bias as a native New Englander and Pats fan has ruled the day in the sense that I respect my fellow Pats fans opinions highly.

I am changing my mind and now saying scrap this bill. This is due to the excellent points brought up by many of you guys. So thank you. I knew that we had very intelligent and thoughtful posters here and this thread has really shone a light on that.

If the bill has even the slightest chance of abuse that could ostensibly be used to harm sites like this, then I am definitely against it.

My boss and many of my coworkers will be mad but I think that it's worth risking their wrath in the interest of the overall health of the internet.

You're a good man Ian and I respect your hard work and faithfulness in maintaining this fine site.

Rojo, I don't see it as an either-or situation.

Copyright and intellectual property theft SHOULD be a real crime.

Just because the bill writers chose not to clearly delineate it doesn't mean that it should be scrapped.

Ian has said right here that he has no problem with laws that protect copyright and intellectual property.

The bill CAN be written clearly and with delineations.

Why must it be scrapped?
 
Rojo, I don't see it as an either-or situation.

Copyright and intellectual property theft SHOULD be a real crime.

Just because the bill writers chose not to clearly delineate it doesn't mean that it should be scrapped.

Ian has said right here that he has no problem with laws that protect copyright and intellectual property.

The bill CAN be written clearly and with delineations.

Why must it be scrapped?

I think he meant scrapped and rewritten to focus on where it needs to be in order to properly address the real offenders - or something to that effect. Either way at least he sees that us little guys could get hurt by this stuff, so hopefully everyone hops on board and gets their voices heard. Strength in numbers :rocker:
 
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Rojo, I don't see it as an either-or situation.

Copyright and intellectual property theft SHOULD be a real crime.

Just because the bill writers chose not to clearly delineate it doesn't mean that it should be scrapped.

Ian has said right here that he has no problem with laws that protect copyright and intellectual property.

The bill CAN be written clearly and with delineations.

Why must it be scrapped?

Because it's an awful bill
 
Rojo, I don't see it as an either-or situation.

Copyright and intellectual property theft SHOULD be a real crime.


Why must it be scrapped?

It already is a crime. Just like terrorism & murder were crimes before the Patriot Act was passed.

What needs to be scrapped is overreaching broad laws that will do almost nothing to solve the problem while infringing people's basic civil liberties.
 
It already is a crime. Just like terrorism & murder were crimes before the Patriot Act was passed.

What needs to be scrapped is overreaching broad laws that will do almost nothing to solve the problem while infringing people's basic civil liberties.

I for one am tired of broadly scoped vaguely worded hundreds of pages legislation that Congress neither reads nor understands (e.g. the DNS blocking issues) that attacks symptoms only and does not address the core problem and worst of all has "unexpected" far reaching consequences that reduce our hard fought valued liberties.

Contact your 2 Senators and congressional rep.
 
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Rojo, I don't see it as an either-or situation.

Copyright and intellectual property theft SHOULD be a real crime.

Just because the bill writers chose not to clearly delineate it doesn't mean that it should be scrapped.

Ian has said right here that he has no problem with laws that protect copyright and intellectual property.

The bill CAN be written clearly and with delineations.

Why must it be scrapped?

As I have mentioned earlier, while there are laws on the books to prosecute offenders inside the United States, the real problem are offshore rogue sites that operate with often tacit approval from their respective governments (China, Russia). It's economic warfare and we're not allowed to fire back. The amount of counterfeit goods produced in China alone is staggering and that's not good for anyone except China.

This bill apparently goes too far and I'm now concerned over the potential innocent casualties like Ian.

I appreciate those of you who are willing to feel some sympathy for us working stiffs who just happen to toil in corporate America (big media) and produce content. We're not all evil and most of us don't fly around in Jets.
 
As I have mentioned earlier, while there are laws on the books to prosecute offenders inside the United States, the real problem are offshore rogue sites that operate with often tacit approval from their respective governments (China, Russia). It's economic warfare and we're not allowed to fire back. The amount of counterfeit goods produced in China alone is staggering and that's not good for anyone except China.

This bill apparently goes too far and I'm now concerned over the potential innocent casualties like Ian.

I appreciate those of you who are willing to feel some sympathy for us working stiffs who just happen to toil in corporate America (big media) and produce content. We're not all evil and most of us don't fly around in Jets.

don't forget Singapore...and if you try to sue they chop your head off in public
 
Don't care....

I suppose this is a big deal for people who spend all their time on a computer. I hate to say this but people who spend all their time on a computer need to get something else to do, at least part time.

You are all already screwed anyway in this regard if you have, and use a credit card, an automatic toll paying system, a cell phone, a GPS device and yes, a computer. You are all okay with Facebook collecting and selling reams of data about you to the highest bidder but not the government. The difference is.... What? Is Mark Zuckerberg really just a grandfatherly good guy? No he's not. Was Steve Jobs really the second coming a Christ? No, he was business man and he destroyed as much as he created. Still we worship Jobs almost as a Saint.

There is little doubt that this legislation is not driven by a desire to spy on you or some such stupid shiite but rather that it is driven by the same corporate, wealthy interests that drive everything else. Wake up, everything which comes to your computer is not always the truth but what is always true is that whatever it is has an agenda. Even those who are leading this effort against these bills, which I would oppose on principle, have an agenda. They too are making money in this environment and they want to continue to do business as they have been doing. Its about money, not freedom.

I think you're in the wrong thread on the wrong forum on the wrong topic.
 
Just because the bill writers chose not to clearly delineate it doesn't mean that it should be scrapped.
That's exactly why it should be scrapped. They are not voting on a bill that they will revise later. It's going to be considered as-is, which is the entire problem.
 
As I have mentioned earlier, while there are laws on the books to prosecute offenders inside the United States, the real problem are offshore rogue sites that operate with often tacit approval from their respective governments (China, Russia). It's economic warfare and we're not allowed to fire back. The amount of counterfeit goods produced in China alone is staggering and that's not good for anyone except China.

This bill apparently goes too far and I'm now concerned over the potential innocent casualties like Ian.

I appreciate those of you who are willing to feel some sympathy for us working stiffs who just happen to toil in corporate America (big media) and produce content. We're not all evil and most of us don't fly around in Jets.

I've Been to China a lot for work, they knock off just about everything from movies to products and then some. Pretty out of control, I was there for Adidas and saw knock offs of our shoes at almost every market. Most of the product knock offs were done by sub factories tweaking molds and patterns sold to them by our main factories.

Companies like Nike or Adidas have a lot of leverage without laws, threatening to relocate production to other countries is 1 example.

Phil Knight interestingly enough started nike by patenting the design of a shoe he was already selling for another brand, which unfortunately they did not patent themselves. The cortez.

Tangible items are a bit less complicated than the internet sharing(pirating) mad house this Bill encounters. If you can't figure out how to protect something don't expect someone else too, especially where the Gov is involved.
 
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Great discussion. Reminds me of a couple things.

Back in the mid/late-1990s, I worked in the IT department of a large corporate retailer that sold numerous copyrighted entertainment products, including music CDs. This was, of course, during the early days of illegal file-sharing sites and the very early days of online retailing. At a large conference/"Expo" for retailers and vendors, I happened to sit in on an informal meeting that included reps from a couple major music vendors and execs and buyers from our company. One of those buyers (who had, informally, become my mentor in my early days with the company) was extremely technologically astute, as well as being one of the most powerful buyers in the industry. When the subject of the file-sharing sites came up, she made the point that they merely represented the tip of the technology iceberg, that there were even more "exotic" and efficient distribution technologies already in the pipeline and that it would be smart and profitable for these vendors to start working on adapting their business model to take advantage of them. The vendor reaction was derisive laughter followed by a pledge to "sue all these sites and the people who use them into oblivion." Apparently, the seeds of the DMCA had already been sown. Also sown, at that moment, were the seeds of my own understanding that major corporate industries want markets free from "government regulation" so that they can use their financial heft to regulate markets themselves, instead - including USING government to thwart technlogies that might enable new businesses who could threaten their staus quo.

Later in the discussion, I heard our own company's CEO claim, in all seriousness, "The Internet is just a fad, like CB radio. It will fade away on its own soon enough." This was the guy who not only refused to invest anything in an online presence for our company (until it was way too late) and also, fairly soon after this, was instrumental in getting the company board to turn down an offer to buy a 50% stake in a parallel (to our business) online startup for a relative pittance, less than a third of the annual budget for building out more brick-and-mortar locations. That same startup, within about three years, became the dominant player in our industry.

Similar to SOPA/PIPA, part of the problem with the original DMCA was technologically ignorant language. With the DMCA, it was vague language intended to make it illegal for anyone to "hide" their computer's actual IP address or to use/sell/develop/distribute technologies to enable this "hiding". As worded, it would have made, for instance, all in-home routers illegal. The wording also, apparently, would have made development of privacy technologies such as personal encryption illegal. IIRC, most such provisions were discarded from the final version that passed at the federal level (after a very vigorous campaign waged by tech folks to demonstrate the abject folly of the concept). However, the MPAA and RIAA later went on a state-to-state roadshow, lobbying individual state legislatures to pass "mini-DMCAs" that retained such provisions. Part of their sales pitch was the claim that such provisions could prevent child pornographers from being able to fly under the radar ("The more things change.....").

And, of course, many states passed such bills. IMHO, such travesties are possible because most elected officials are good at primarily ONE thing - getting elected. Expecting the majority of them to ALSO have a decent working knowledge of the things we're ostensibly hiring them to manage, such as technology issues, appears to be completely unrealistic. Anyway, among the states that passed such "mini-DMCAs" was the state where I had spent most of my adult life. An acquaintance back there, who was involved with and later married a long time close friend of mine, was/is an internationally well-known researcher in legitimate computer security and encryption technologies, working in affiliation with a major state university. When that state's bill passed, all his work effectively became felonious. To protect himself from prosecution, he was forced to immediately move all his work to offshore servers, end his affiliation with the university and move out of the U.S. for awhile (he eventually came back to resume his career in another state that hadn't passed such legislation).

Yep. Good times, all the way around. Not particularly thrilled to see that they're back.
 
Been to China a lot for work, they nock off just about everything from movies to products and then some. Pretty out of control, I was there for Adidas and saw knock offs of our shoes at almost every market. Most of the product knock offs were done by sub factories tweaking molds and patterns sold to them by our main factories.

Companies like Nike or Adidas have a lot of leverage without laws, threatening to relocate production to other countries is 1 example.

Phil Knight interestingly enough started nike by patenting the design of a shoe he was already selling for another brand, which unfortunately they did not patent themselves. The cortez.

Tangible items are a bit less complicated than the internet sharing(pirating) mad house this Bill encounters. If you can't figure out how to protect something don't expect someone else too, especially where the Gov is involved.

This bill was was put forth by the fashion industry as well.

The problem is similar to what's going on in Afghanistan. They hide behind borders (Pakistan) and we can't do squat to stop it because their governments are most often encouraging them to do it in the first place. A rough analogy but you get the point.

Hell, the koobface guys are OUT IN THE OPEN and the Russian govt knows all about them. But they do nothing to stop them -- which would simply entail driving up to their foursquare location and arresting them.
 
Because that's not the intent of the bill. Why are you assuming that it is? Sure, someone in the future could try to alter the bill to suit their nefarious ends but that's pure speculation.

Let's try to limit this discussion to the facts and not let fear mongering creep in.

Right. The history of mankind has proven that when people have the ability to change things to suit their own agenda and not be penalized for it, they rarely do.
 
Great discussion. Reminds me of a couple things.

Back in the mid/late-1990s, I worked in the IT department of a large corporate retailer that sold numerous copyrighted entertainment products, including music CDs. This was, of course, during the early days of illegal file-sharing sites and the very early days of online retailing. At a large conference/"Expo" for retailers and vendors, I happened to sit in on an informal meeting that included reps from a couple major music vendors and execs and buyers from our company. One of those buyers (who had, informally, become my mentor in my early days with the company) was extremely technologically astute, as well as being one of the most powerful buyers in the industry. When the subject of the file-sharing sites came up, she made the point that they merely represented the tip of the technology iceberg, that there were even more "exotic" and efficient distribution technologies already in the pipeline and that it would be smart and profitable for these vendors to start working on adapting their business model to take advantage of them. The vendor reaction was derisive laughter followed by a pledge to "sue all these sites and the people who use them into oblivion." Apparently, the seeds of the DMCA had already been sown. Also sown, at that moment, were the seeds of my own understanding that major corporate industries want markets free from "government regulation" so that they can use their financial heft to regulate markets themselves, instead - including USING government to thwart technlogies that might enable new businesses who could threaten their staus quo.

Later in the discussion, I heard our own company's CEO claim, in all seriousness, "The Internet is just a fad, like CB radio. It will fade away on its own soon enough." This was the guy who not only refused to invest anything in an online presence for our company (until it was way too late) and also, fairly soon after this, was instrumental in getting the company board to turn down an offer to buy a 50% stake in a parallel (to our business) online startup for a relative pittance, less than a third of the annual budget for building out more brick-and-mortar locations. That same startup, within about three years, became the dominant player in our industry.

Similar to SOPA/PIPA, part of the problem with the original DMCA was technologically ignorant language. With the DMCA, it was vague language intended to make it illegal for anyone to "hide" their computer's actual IP address or to use/sell/develop/distribute technologies to enable this "hiding". As worded, it would have made, for instance, all in-home routers illegal. The wording also, apparently, would have made development of privacy technologies such as personal encryption illegal. IIRC, most such provisions were discarded from the final version that passed at the federal level (after a very vigorous campaign waged by tech folks to demonstrate the abject folly of the concept). However, the MPAA and RIAA later went on a state-to-state roadshow, lobbying individual state legislatures to pass "mini-DMCAs" that retained such provisions. Part of their sales pitch was the claim that such provisions could prevent child pornographers from being able to fly under the radar ("The more things change.....").

And, of course, many states passed such bills. IMHO, such travesties are possible because most elected officials are good at primarily ONE thing - getting elected. Expecting the majority of them to ALSO have a decent working knowledge of the things we're ostensibly hiring them to manage, such as technology issues, appears to be completely unrealistic. Anyway, among the states that passed such "mini-DMCAs" was the state where I had spent most of my adult life. An acquaintance back there, who was involved with and later married a long time close friend of mine, was/is an internationally well-known researcher in legitimate computer security and encryption technologies, working in affiliation with a major state university. When that state's bill passed, all his work effectively became felonious. To protect himself from prosecution, he was forced to immediately move all his work to offshore servers, end his affiliation with the university and move out of the U.S. for awhile (he eventually came back to resume his career in another state that hadn't passed such legislation).

Yep. Good times, all the way around. Not particularly thrilled to see that they're back.

I find your post extremely interesting...thanks...like I said earlier...I USED to be a wide eyed optimist...age and experience has turned me cynical....all these different bills mean only one thing to me...whoever wins the political battle for HIS version of the bill will also have riding within the language of that bill some other altogether ,unrelated riders pandering to a specific special interest/lobby(s).

I retired from my first profession some years ago and live off a fund subsidized by commercial fishing in the summer months. What cost NOTHING to recreationally fish for most of my life has NOW been broken down into compartmentalized fees for practically every organism in the tidal basin. My state(RI) has a charge of 25 dollars a year if one wants to harvest PERIWINKLES!!!! The absurdity would shock Albert Camus out of his caftan for chrissakes. What I grew up and lived for decades doing free NOW costs me $350 in licensing fees to fish for two species of shellfish,fluke and striper.What do I and others who rely on the fishery get for our bucks?? We get nitwits from the local university doing federal "studies" on overfishing, going out and setting trawls that couldn't catch a damn rock and then using that data to establish lawful limits. I have personally run a trawl over an area deemed desolate by these idiots and pulled up a full catch.Documented, photographed and personally taken to the DEM offices in Providence,along with a couple dozen other commercial fisherman from Pt Judith...what did we get??? "That is the law now...the limits are set for five years...do you or don't you want to pay for your licenses?"

That is a microcosm of where we are today throughout society. We are being legislated into the dark ages by self serving, ignorant bureaucrats only interested in what lines THEIR cavernous pockets.
 
As I have mentioned earlier, while there are laws on the books to prosecute offenders inside the United States, the real problem are offshore rogue sites that operate with often tacit approval from their respective governments (China, Russia). It's economic warfare and we're not allowed to fire back. The amount of counterfeit goods produced in China alone is staggering and that's not good for anyone except China.

This bill apparently goes too far and I'm now concerned over the potential innocent casualties like Ian.

I appreciate those of you who are willing to feel some sympathy for us working stiffs who just happen to toil in corporate America (big media) and produce content. We're not all evil and most of us don't fly around in Jets.

The "working stiffs", the faceless minions who toil away in the bowels of major corporate industries are rarely "evil". Most are simply trying to be good at what they do and to get paid for it and get safely home at the end of the day. Heck, corporations themselves aren't necessarily "evil" - perhaps not even any more intrinsically "evil" than the momma bear who claws your face off if you're unfortunate enough to wander into the space between her and her cubs. There is a huge difference, though. Momma-bear has no way to change her "business model." Corporate executives, board members, major shareholders CAN change the way they do business with us groundlings, with OUR government and with the rest of the world - to everyone's benefit and profit, including theirs (if they were a bit more farsighted). That they choose NOT to may not be serial-murderer-evil, but it's damn close, IMHO. Unfortunately, there's probably ultimately nothing we can do to make them change (Wall Street sit-ins notwithstanding). They really have too much power now. About all we can do is to try - as voters AND as employees - to try to retain some larger perspective and objectivity and to keep fighting the little battles (like this one) for as long as we still can.

PS - I know this seems "political", but it's not, to me. It's more about trying to understand the often intricate mechanisms involved in creating certain outcomes - like how TCP/IP works or why the damn truck refuses to start when you're on the verge of being late for work. Personally, I'm ideologically opposed to all ideologies.
 
That perception is really a huge part of the problem.

I can point you to the doeznes of former colleagues standing in the unemployment lines if you really think those are the only people piracy hurts.

It's interesting that you're pointing out how many "former colleagues standing in the unemployment lines" you know and have been let go, yet you spend all day on Patsfans defending this Bill?

You are aware that most if not all industries throughout America have had huge layoffs in the last few years? I don't suppose that has anything to do with people getting laid off at your company? according to you, It's all because of the internet. Rrrrright.
 
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