ESPN Forsberg says Yea & Reiss says Nay on Ochocinco as a Patriot

[patsfan13]

ESPN's stock in trade the contrived debate, it happens on all their shows, to generate 'interest'. In their world the sport itself is too boring.

 

[BradyFTW!]

It could be worse. Jermaine Wiggins today said that after spending the entire offseason and OTAs studying the playbook, Ochocinco should know the playbook backwards and forward by now. Do anyone know if Wiggins had a history of concussions during his career? I swear he is the dumbest person in the media. He is the same guy who said that Belichick has never run a 4-3 base during his coaching career even though Beichick ran a 4-3 base while Wiggins was a Patriot and practicing against the defense.

Last Friday, Chris Gasper said that when judging Ochocinco, we should use Jabar Gaffney as the measuring stick because he was a player who came here in 2006 and "immediately clicked with Brady" and grasped the offense. Funny, I don't think getting 10 catches for 142 yards and a TD in 10 games in the 2006 seson is classified as clicking. I remember Gaffney as a bubble player in 2007 and many people feeling that Caldwell had a better chance of making the 53 man roster.

Yes, Mike Reiss is not a good analyst, but he is far better than some of the guys we got here to listen to. Besides, it seemed like Reiss was taking the opposing point to give two different views and not necessarily because he believed that view point.

Wiggins also said that the Patriots have never run a 4-3 defense under Belichick, despite the fact that he practiced against the Patriots' 4-3 defense every day in 2000. At the very least, he's a profoundly dumb person.

 

[bagwell368]

ESPN's stock in trade the contrived debate, it happens on all their shows, to generate 'interest'. In their world the sport itself is too boring.

So do EEI and 98.5

I never listen to the TV broadcasters for the Pats if I can help it either. Radio and deal with the delay.

Print media tends not to follow this pattern like broadcast media, so tend to read it, and not listen to the talking heads. Please pull the plug if I evvvver pay attention to Mel "Eddie Munster" Kiper.

 

[Metaphors]

If Welker catches 75+, AH 60+, Gronk 50+, and Price, Slater and Branch come in at 50 combined, what will be good enough for 85?

46 for 697 and 3 TD's ? That's Stallworth in 2007. He's even decent at 38 for 550, IMO. Anyone looking for 80 for 1175 and 8 TD's won't be happy.

We are going to throw a lot more screens this year to the backs as well.

Diversification. That's what I think the key word is this year.

Everyone that evaluates receivers should do the math like this. Consider that in an ideal/balanced world, the Pats would like Brady to throw about 500 times (32 per game) and complete about 66%. That means there are 330 completions to go around. Start dividing them up:

Welker - 80...way below his norm and slightly below last year's limited duty
Gronk - 50...only a slight bump from last year
AHern - 55...this is an uptick for him but he is the matchup nightmare
All RBs - 50...way low since Woody/Faulk had 40 last year
JE/TP/MS - 25...also low since that is barely enough for needed development

So even being very conservative, that is 260 receptions. That leaves 70 catches for Branch and Ocho COMBINED! That is about what Branch and Tate had last year. While that may seem ridiculous, tell me how you would alter my premise above. Have Brady slinging like 2007? Take looks away for the TEs or RBs (not like the Pats invested in those positions in the draft recently or something)?

Some people act like there isn't a linkage between the number of catches for receivers and the number of Brady passes.

 

[PatsFan37]

Givens and Branch grew up in this system with Brady and he was their private tutor. Everyone else had a full off season to digest the playbook and workout with Tom. To be fair to Ocho he's had a month and he's not the only target and there are a number of targets on the roster he's competing for attention with and he's coming off a decade long career in a totally different system with a QB who struggled with his own reads and his accuracy increasingly over the last 3-4 years... Now as they start specific game planning and prep I think we will see it - if we do - later than sooner, probably after the bye. In the meantime his targets will be limited of necessity since job 1 now is winning and not acclimating Ocho. It is what it is. I don't like his drops % - that won't fly here. So we shall see. But he certainly seems to be trying.

Oddly I don't think Moss really fit in. I think Brady changed to fit Moss, and that worked until the league and/or age or emotional upheaval caught up to Moss. Moss never really got the system here and he wasn't asked to. Chad is being asked to.

That, I think, is the key. 85 has a lot to unlearn. It's not just learning the Patriot's system, it's fighting the instincts to play the way he's always played for the Bengals and to look for passes thrown the way Palmer threw them. 85 needs time and hard work, and all indications are he's busting his tail. Galloway didn't put in the effort. Stallworth wasn't nearly as savvy a receiver. Gabriel was lazy and not too bright - a bad combination. None of these guys are fair comparisons to 85. Nor is the Moss of 2007, a rare talent playing at HOF levels.

We don't need Moss from 85, we just need to be patient.

 

[Disco Volante]

So do EEI and 98.5

I actually find the callers even worse than the radio personalities themselves.

Some guy called WEEI this morning saying how what Francona does with the Red Sox is much more impressive than what BB does with the Patriots (on it's own, comparing a baseball manager to a football coach is asinine) and then went on to say how the Patriots have only had to beat "mediocre" teams (citing the 2001 Rams as one of those teams) to get their rings. Which left me looking something like this...

 

[Captain Cliche]

Bottom line...I'm afraid Ocho drops alot of passes.

That seems to be the case so far from what I have read and a co-worker asked me how many passes has he dropped so far, like that has been a problem in the past. Some people here have blamed that on him not being used to the system or thinking too much.

That sounds like apologists to me. Being sure-handed has nothing to do with the system.

I sincerely hope that is not the case. Maybe someone here with more knowledge can refute that.

 

[Bonzo]

I say "Yay" to reading Reiss & Forsberg in print and "Nay" to watching videos of them speak.

 

[JetFan1]

Another indication that Reiss probably isn't the best source for in-depth analysis. "What you've seen from Ochocinco is what you'll get" is a pretty ridiculous statement, given how long he's been here and how much time he has to get comfortable in the offense.

Not really. Ocho has been a player on decline for a couple of years, he doesn't have that extra gear anymore, and he's a WR that doesn't have great size, it's not a stretch to think Ocho isn't the player he once was and may be a big reason why he's been struggling in the pre-season, he's just not that difficult to cover anymore.

 

[Deus Irae]

Not really. Ocho has been a player on decline for a couple of years, he doesn't have that extra gear anymore, and he's a WR that doesn't have great size, it's not a stretch to think Ocho isn't the player he once was and may be a big reason why he's been struggling in the pre-season, he's just not that difficult to cover anymore.

With his numbers, he would have led the Jets in receptions last year.

 

[fnordcircle]

Thread title is misleading.

Reiss isn't saying that Ochocino won't perform well for us, he's saying that he won't have the stats people have come to expect from him.

And yeah, I think that's going to be the case. Reiss even says himself that he just doesn't think that Ochocino is going to do the 75 catches he has averaged per year.

But that's more to do with the system and the tremendous number of options we have here.

 

[JetFan1]

With his numbers, he would have led the Jets in receptions last year.

Had Holmes played a full season, it wouldn't have been close.

Ocho was also a #1, Owens missed several games, and was always Palmer's binky.

Numbers don't tell the whole story, Sanchez is still developing as a QB, and the passing game, while it opened up quite a bit last year, their offense is still predicated on the running game.

You aren't trying to suggest Ocho is better than Holmes, are you?

 

[Deus Irae]

Had Holmes played a full season, it wouldn't have been close.

Ocho was also a #1, Owens missed several games, and was always Palmer's binky.

Numbers don't tell the whole story, Sanchez is still developing as a QB, and the passing game, while it opened up quite a bit last year, their offense is still predicated on the running game.

You aren't trying to suggest Ocho is better than Holmes, are you?

I'm suggesting that your post was nonsense, as most of them have been. Johnson may, or may not, be in some steep decline, but he would have been the top receiver on the Jets last year, and was certainly as difficult a cover as any Jet besides Holmes, from either last year's team or this year's squad. He would have led them in 2009, too, for that matter, when he had 72 catches and a 14.5 y/r average (and he'd have been just 7 catches behind Holmes, who was in Pittsburgh that year).

As I've said many times before, I've got no problems with trolls. They can help pass the time. I have a problem with bad trolls, and you're rapidly becoming one of them. If you can't bring anything to the table beyond "He stinks!" and "Nuh uh!" types of posts, you're useless, because that gets boring quick.

And, right now, you're boring as hell.

 

[JetFan1]

I'm suggesting that your post was nonsense, as most of them have been. Johnson may, or may not, be in some steep decline, but he would have been the top receiver on the Jets last year, and was certainly as difficult a cover as any Jet besides Holmes, from either last year's team or this year's squad. He would have led them in 2009, too, for that matter, when he had 72 catches and a 14.5 y/r average (and he'd have been just 7 catches behind Holmes, who was in Pittsburgh that year).

As I've said many times before, I've got no problems with trolls. They can help pass the time. I have a problem with bad trolls, and you're rapidly becoming one of them. If you can't bring anything to the table beyond "He stinks!" and "Nuh uh!" types of posts, you're useless, because that gets boring quick.

And, right now, you're boring as hell.

So my posts are nonsense and I'm boring, all because I'm a Jets fan.

Which one of my posts are "he stinks," or "the patriots suck," blah blah????

I get it, you don't like Jets fans that post here, how old are you, 18? What is wrong with the view from an opposing teams fan in a discussion as long as it is civil?

I've done nothing to warrant your BS.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

So my posts are nonsense and I'm boring, all because I'm a Jets fan.

Which one of my posts are "he stinks," or "the patriots suck," blah blah????

I get it, you don't like Jets fans that post here, how old are you, 18? What is wrong with the view from an opposing teams fan in a discussion as long as it is civil?

I've done nothing to warrant your BS.

What hes saying is your not being objective and I have to agree with him. Your the one that comes across as being 18.

 

[JetFan1]

What hes saying is your not being objective and I have to agree with him. Your the one that comes across as being 18.

How am I not being objective?

I am agreeing with the Boston writer who thinks Ocho has declined, how is that not objective? And how is anything in my post immature?

 

[cmasspatsfan]

How am I not being objective?

I am agreeing with the Boston writer who thinks Ocho has declined, how is that not objective? And how is anything in my post immature?

Im not talking just talking about this one topic, you've been on here the last couple of nights.

 

[Deus Irae]

So my posts are nonsense and I'm boring, all because I'm a Jets fan.

I didn't say any such thing, as you are well aware. Look, let's take certain things as a given here, one of them being that I'm not going to let you use the bait and switch tactic on me. You can use that with everyone else, but I don't play that game.

Which one of my posts are "he stinks," or "the patriots suck," blah blah????

Pretty much every post you've made on this site is a derivative of one or the other. Here's another given you should take: I'm not big on people who run from their posts by pretending they haven't written what they've written.

I get it, you don't like Jets fans that post here, how old are you, 18? What is wrong with the view from an opposing teams fan in a discussion as long as it is civil?

Actually, and I think Gunnails will back me on this, I'm one of this site's staunchest defenders of the idea of fair treatment of fans from other teams who come to post on this board. I have no problem with honest discussion from non-Patriots fans, and there are non-Patriots fans here that I consider vastly superior posters to a fair percentage of the Patriots fans posting here.

I've done nothing to warrant your BS.

Sure you have. You've chosen trolling over serious discussion, which is fine if done well, but you've done it in a very repetitive and boring manner.

 

[JetFan1]

I didn't say any such thing, as you are well aware. Look, let's take certain things as a given here, one of them being that I'm not going to let you use the bait and switch tactic on me. You can use that with everyone else, but I don't play that game.

Not sure what you're talking about here. I'm not baiting anybody, seems to me you're paranoid about something, but I haven't done anything to warrant your arrogance and belittling, period.

Pretty much every post you've made on this site is a derivative of one or the other. Here's another given you should take: I'm not big on people who run from their posts by pretending they haven't written what they've written.

Again, I'm not pretending to do anything, I commented in the thread, I questioned one of the posters and suggested my opinion, that is afterall what we all do here, isn't? I agreed with the writer, was nothing more than that, you are the one trying to make this into something that it isn't.

Actually, and I think Gunnails will back me on this, I'm one of this site's staunchest defenders of the idea of fair treatment of fans from other teams who come to post on this board. I have no problem with honest discussion from non-Patriots fans, and there are non-Patriots fans here that I consider vastly superior posters to a fair percentage of the Patriots fans posting here.

Ok great, than again, what have I done that hasn't been within the rules of the board, and within the spirit of debate regardless of which team I root for?

Sure you have. You've chosen trolling over serious discussion, which is fine if done well, but you've done it in a very repetitive and boring manner.

Supplying opinion is not trolling. I didn't come here with guns ab-lazing smearing "the Pats suck and are a complete joke" rhetoric, not a single post.

You may not agree with what I write, but everything I've posted has been my opinion, and has been done with regard and respect to the board and the fans who post here.

You on the other hand have done nothing but smear me in every one of your posts, and have gone out of your way to belittle anything I post.

 

[livinginthe past]

Deus,

If, like the rest of us, you think that Jetsfan1 is here just to troll then how about you stop helping him to pollute this thread with lengthy back and forths?