if pats and brady win another ring..

[JoeSixPat]

I don't know why this thread has only one star - the question is a great one...

If Brady equal's Montana's 4th SB Championship during an era of football in which free agency and the salary cap undermined a teams ability to retain its best players I think you'd have to give the edge to Brady (who also wins in a number of stat categories, not to mention the only 16-0 season ever)

That would never end a debate though - when you're talking two of the greatest players to ever play the game, there's always going to be differences of opinion.

 

[TealSox]

Joe Montana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cute, but reading up on Montana's legacy wasn't paramount to my statement.

 

[Observer]

Please read before responding. The premise is whether Brady is the greatest IF HE WINS ANOTHER.

Glad you agree with me there. :rocker:

 

[tests]

To be honest... I don't think i would mount brady as the GOAT if he simply just wins another superbowl ring.

IMHO, he would have to do it in similar fashion as he did his first three rings (the last two more so). I.E., he should have a phenomenal post-season, and a terrific performance in the superbowl (i.e. no picks, numerous TDS, what brady was known for).

Basically, i would not be happy if brady got "carried" by his team... but from the looks of last season... it is the opposite.

How awesome would it be if brady and the patriots win the superbowl this year (if there is no lockout)? And how awesome would it be if we beat the JETS on the way?!

 

[Ring 6]

You raise alot of good points but one thing to consider. Montana played in an era where a QB's life was alot tougher and when you compare his passer rating to those from his era...he dwarfs them.Though the talent that he had to work with was also far better than any other QB's

Passer rating is a stupid formula that should only be a tiny part of the comparison between QBs.
I disagree that it was tougher on QBs in his era.
I think there is a correlation of the 2 though. Passer rating HEAVILY favors short passing, with high completion percentages and lesser yards per completion being much, much more favorable to rating. Montana, in Walsh's system started the shift from throwing the ball down the field to valuing shorter higher percentage throws.
Prior to the WCO QBs threw the ball down the field. A higher percentage of plays were runs. The less than 5 yard pass almost didnt exist, so QB rating is enhanced by adding all of those plays which result in completion percentage going up, int % going down, yards per completion going down, but yards per attempt not going down, and ratings soaring, even with equal quality QB play.
The change in the style of the passing game in the NFL, not the ability of QBs is the result of QB rating being higher, because it favors the style that is played now, which certainly doesnt mean every QB playing today is better than every QB who played in the 70s and 80s.

 

[tests]

barring no lockout, do you think the patriots can win it all this year? i hope so!

 

[Off The Grid]

1. I think it would, once and for all, distance him from Peyton Manning. How could it not? For all Peyton's statistical accolades, he's only been able to obtain one ring.

2. It may very well remove that little black cloud that has hung over New England since losing Adam Vinateri to the Colts in free agency, SpyGate and 2007 loss to the Giants.

3. For Belichick, I think he will solidify his spot in the top 5 NFL coaches of all time and challenge Lombari for the 3rd spot on the All Time list.

It would distance him from everyone. Ditto Belichick who already has a fist full of rings counting his two as a DC (the game plan for one of which is already enshrined).

And if 18-1 and 11-5 after losing the franchise for an entire season and 14-2 and a league MVP constitute your idea of a black cloud, god help you if they ever land under a real one with actual dire consequences again once these two retire.

Basically these two have it all now. Whatever remains is icing on their cakes.

I find it unfathomable that anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of this Game would put Manning in Brady's class, much less consider them nearly equals.

1 ~ Most people who vastly overrate Manning do so because of Stats. But if you actually LOOK at Stats, Brady has CRUSHED Manning since we finally gave him weapons on equal footing with Manning's, in 2007:

Manning: 31 TDs + 15 INTs per year.
Brady: 38 TDs + 8 INTs per year.

* Manning plays about 14 games a season in the pleasure dome or other comfy places.

* Brady plays about 14 games a year in New England and other rough spots.

Are those two guys in the same CLASS???

THANK you.

2 ~ Championships. Brady is up, 3 to 0, unless you count the one that the refs stole from us, by dint of that phantom Pass Interference call on Hobbs that was so hideously blatant that the ref was actually required to pen a formal letter of apology to Hobbs. If you count THAT one, 2006, then it's FOUR to nothing, thank you very MUCH.

3 ~ PlayOff Record. Brady is Vince Lombardi. Manning is Marty Schottenheimer.

And if anybody's fact-challenged enough to suggest that our Defense's prowess in any way dilutes that dominance, here's a news flash: Since 2004, in terms of Points Allowed ~ the measure that COUNTS ~ the Colts have finished Top 8 4 out of 6 times, and Top 2 twice...Yet Manning led his team to defeat in the PlayOffs, every one of those 4 years.

*******************************************************

I have IMMENSE respect for Manning, as is well documented, to the annoyance of many.

But when the bullets are flying, against the best teams in the league, in the biggest games of all, Brady moves the chains and wins Championships...while Manning CHOKES.

And isn't THAT how you separate the Great Ones from all of the rest???

 

[Off The Grid]

This whole Bruins thing had me watching some Bobby Orr highlights; it occurred to me that three New England sports teams can claim to have players who are at least in the discussion for GOAT in their sports -- Orr, Russell, Brady. Baseball's a little tougher, but T Williams is very much in the discussion of greatest hitters of all. Pretty cool.

George Herman "Babe" Ruth remained a Sox fan for the rest of his life, I remember reading, once. In any case, he was wearing OUR colors when he established himself as far and AWAY the Greatest Of All Time.

That being said: KUDOS.

In my opinion, Orr, Russell, and Ruth are CLEARLY the GOATS of their sports...And Brady WILL be, by the time he's racked up another 3-5 Rings!!

 

[Off The Grid]

I don't know why this thread has only one star - the question is a great one...

I agree that it's a fine question, albeit not an original one by any stretch...But I dearly wish that all who can't be bothered to capitalize and correctly spell TITLES are boiled in oil until their skin peels off and their anguished screams wake the DEAD.

I'm not a Grammar Nazi, but the guy who started this thread was clearly just puking up words without putting any thought into it, and couldn't even be bothered to show the rest of us the respect or courtesy of posting something that didn't look like it was composed by a FOUR year old.

 

[TealSox]

I find it unfathomable that anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of this Game would put Manning in Brady's class, much less consider them nearly equals.

1 ~ Most people who vastly overrate Manning do so because of Stats. But if you actually LOOK at Stats, Brady has CRUSHED Manning since we finally gave him weapons on equal footing with Manning's, in 2007:

Manning: 31 TDs + 15 INTs per year.
Brady: 38 TDs + 8 INTs per year.

* Manning plays about 14 games a season in the pleasure dome or other comfy places.

* Brady plays about 14 games a year in New England and other rough spots.

Are those two guys in the same CLASS???

THANK you.

2 ~ Championships. Brady is up, 3 to 0, unless you count the one that the refs stole from us, by dint of that phantom Pass Interference call on Hobbs that was so hideously blatant that the ref was actually required to pen a formal letter of apology to Hobbs. If you count THAT one, 2006, then it's FOUR to nothing, thank you very MUCH.

3 ~ PlayOff Record. Brady is Vince Lombardi. Manning is Marty Schottenheimer.

And if anybody's fact-challenged enough to suggest that our Defense's prowess in any way dilutes that dominance, here's a news flash: Since 2004, in terms of Points Allowed ~ the measure that COUNTS ~ the Colts have finished Top 8 4 out of 6 times, and Top 2 twice...Yet Manning led his team to defeat in the PlayOffs, every one of those 4 years.

*******************************************************

I have IMMENSE respect for Manning, as is well documented, to the annoyance of many.

But when the bullets are flying, against the best teams in the league, in the biggest games of all, Brady moves the chains and wins Championships...while Manning CHOKES.

And isn't THAT how you separate the Great Ones from all of the rest???

Agreed.

The Brady v. Manning debate has all but faded away over the last few years, when Brady was tossing up his huge stats to accompany his 3 Super Bowl Championships.

While people are hung up with Montana, Big Ben looms as a rising contender. He is far from there, but given a few good seasons, the GOAT argument could certainly be re-visited.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Agreed.

The Brady v. Manning debate has all but faded away over the last few years, when Brady was tossing up his huge stats to accompany his 3 Super Bowl Championships.

While people are hung up with Montana, Big Ben looms as a rising contender. He is far from there, but given a few good seasons, the GOAT argument could certainly be re-visited.

Rapistburger's team would have to win several rings more before he'd even loom in the conversation. He remains on the fringe of elite discussion in his era largely (battling no rings Rivers for the top of tier two) due to the performance of his teamates moreso than his own. Ben remains as much the product of being in the right place at the right time...all they ever lacked in the Cowher era was a functional QB, and while Ben has had his moments... those have been both functional and dysfunctional. He has one pro bowl nod and no all pros seven years into his career for a reason...He pales in comparison to 2-3 QB's concurrently residing in the AFC despite also playing for a perenial contender. I doubt he plays into his mid to late 30's because his physical style of play takes a toll. Particularly when combined with a lack of all consuming drive to get better at the little things.

 

[randomk1]

Rapistburger's team would have to win several rings more before he'd even loom in the conversation. He remains on the fringe of elite discussion in his era largely (battling no rings Rivers for the top of tier two) due to the performance of his teamates moreso than his own. Ben remains as much the product of being in the right place at the right time...all they ever lacked in the Cowher era was a functional QB, and while Ben has had his moments... those have been both functional and dysfunctional. He has one pro bowl nod and no all pros seven years into his career for a reason...He pales in comparison to 2-3 QB's concurrently residing in the AFC despite also playing for a perenial contender. I doubt he plays into his mid to late 30's because his physical style of play takes a toll. Particularly when combined with a lack of all consuming drive to get better at the little things.

Roethlisberger will never be in the GOAT discussions. He is in fact a better version of Bradshaw...only that he is worse in the playoffs.

First SB win=22 passer rating,lowest ever for a winner.

The guy had a 33 passer rating vs the Jets 0 TD/2 INT still gets a W.
In the Superbowl= 2 INT,one of them a pick six. 77 passer rating.

And it's not like the guy has been throwing to bums his entire career. Santonio Holmes(SB MVP),Hines Ward(one of the most clutch receivers to play,SB MVP),Mike Wallace, Heath Miller.

He might be good at extending plays and etc. but he isn't an elite passer. He wins largely thanks to a good running game(Bettis,Parker and now Rashard) and a top 3 defense. This same team opened the season 4-0 or something with their 4th string QB for crying out loud.

 

[tests]

yea, brady is actually quite even with manning when it comes to stats (The stats that matter).

Once brady gets his 4th, everyone will be talking about how MANNING had to content with the almighty brady..

 

[randomk1]

yea, brady is actually quite even with manning when it comes to stats (The stats that matter).

Once brady gets his 4th, everyone will be talking about how MANNING had to content with the almighty brady..

But Manning the choker was ranked #8 all time and Brady was ****tier than Favre or some ridiculous **** like that.

 

[tests]

yea... that was quite sad

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I find it unfathomable that anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of this Game would put Manning in Brady's class, much less consider them nearly equals.

1 ~ Most people who vastly overrate Manning do so because of Stats. But if you actually LOOK at Stats, Brady has CRUSHED Manning since we finally gave him weapons on equal footing with Manning's, in 2007:

OTG:

If you go back to the beginnings of their careers, let alone 2007, you'll find that Brady's passer rating outdoors > Manning's passer rating outdoors, AND Brady's passer rating indoors > Manning's passer rating indoors.

The only reason Manning had a higher career passer rating (right now Brady's is higher) is because Manning got to play so many more games indoors. But since 2010, the gulf in ratings has become large enough to swamp that advantage.

 

[Off The Grid]

I find it unfathomable that anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of this Game would put Manning in Brady's class, much less consider them nearly equals.

1 ~ Most people who vastly overrate Manning do so because of Stats. But if you actually LOOK at Stats, Brady has CRUSHED Manning since we finally gave him weapons on equal footing with Manning's, in 2007:

Manning: 31 TDs + 15 INTs per year.
Brady: 38 TDs + 8 INTs per year.

* Manning plays about 14 games a season in the pleasure dome or other comfy places.

* Brady plays about 14 games a year in New England and other rough spots.

Are those two guys in the same CLASS???

THANK you.

2 ~ Championships. Brady is up, 3 to 0, unless you count the one that the refs stole from us, by dint of that phantom Pass Interference call on Hobbs that was so hideously blatant that the ref was actually required to pen a formal letter of apology to Hobbs. If you count THAT one, 2006, then it's FOUR to nothing, thank you very MUCH.

3 ~ PlayOff Record. Brady is Vince Lombardi. Manning is Marty Schottenheimer.

And if anybody's fact-challenged enough to suggest that our Defense's prowess in any way dilutes that dominance, here's a news flash: Since 2004, in terms of Points Allowed ~ the measure that COUNTS ~ the Colts have finished Top 8 4 out of 6 times, and Top 2 twice...Yet Manning led his team to defeat in the PlayOffs, every one of those 4 years.

*******************************************************

I have IMMENSE respect for Manning, as is well documented, to the annoyance of many.

But when the bullets are flying, against the best teams in the league, in the biggest games of all, Brady moves the chains and wins Championships...while Manning CHOKES.

And isn't THAT how you separate the Great Ones from all of the rest???

Agreed.

The Brady v. Manning debate has all but faded away over the last few years, when Brady was tossing up his huge stats to accompany his 3 Super Bowl Championships.

Well said, sir.

Couldn't agree more.

OTG:

If you go back to the beginnings of their careers, let alone 2007, you'll find that Brady's passer rating outdoors > Manning's passer rating outdoors, AND Brady's passer rating indoors > Manning's passer rating indoors.

The only reason Manning had a higher career passer rating (right now Brady's is higher) is because Manning got to play so many more games indoors. But since 2010, the gulf in ratings has become large enough to swamp that advantage.

INTERESTING...

 

[tests]

Well said, sir.

Couldn't agree more.



INTERESTING...

if you check out colts forums... they try to twist it in favor of manning