DRAFT DAY DISCUSSION A tale of a draft SQUANDERED....

[patman12]

Warren
Wilfork
????

Stroud, Deaderick, Love, Brace, Wright, G. Warren, Moore

Cunningham
Mayo
Spikes/????
????

TBC, Guyton, Ninkovich, Fletcher

Not saying the names I added are the end all be all but I certainly don't think it's as dire as some are making it out to be.

 

[Ring 6]

Fair enough point on the Jets thing. Now to the OT.

Can we agree that Light was good enough to hold the fort, and that, assuming J. Kraft wasn't lying today, the Patriots want him back, which makes Solder largely an expensive cheerleader for the next year or two?

Light is not under contract.
You spent most of last year saying that having a new starter at G would get Brady killed.
Should we really risk Steve Maneri starting at T if Light gets offered more elsewhere?
Since Light is a union rep and very vocal, we are one set of hard feelings and one ruling that the tag is gone from having Brady protected by
Vollmer, Connolly, Koppen, Wendell, Maneri if we don't draft a pass blocker.
Surely we can't count on a guy who isn't under contract to protect the franchise.

 

[Ring 6]

Stroud, Deaderick, Love, Brace, Wright, G. Warren, Moore


TBC, Guyton, Ninkovich, Fletcher

Not saying the names I added are the end all be all but I certainly don't think it's as dire as some are making it out to be.

Sign a stud OLB in FA (and it appears we will have plenty of room in the budget, or cap) and I challenge you to find a position on that defense that you would be confident any player picked today (or even from 17 on yesterday) would have a good chance of starting at.

 

[skinnydog]

You listened to analysts? So your whole premise is an appeal to authority then? Right? Oh, I forgot you watched games too. I guess that make my wife and kids experts as well.

Listen, you want to pretend like you are "informed" then go right ahead. But when you try to challenge my statement that almost everyone on this board is uninformed and then have NOTHING to back it up with then that is on you.

And you wont find me screaming "BB Knows" anywhere in this thread. But I have the constraint to not fly off the handle with every choice or misstep.

BSR, if you think someone is unfairly criticizing a Pats pick can you come back with something better than, well BB knows more than you do so there. Bring better arguments!

 

[condon84]

Stroud, Deaderick, Love, Brace, Wright, G. Warren, Moore


TBC, Guyton, Ninkovich, Fletcher

Not saying the names I added are the end all be all but I certainly don't think it's as dire as some are making it out to be.

What did these guys do last year that makes you think they don't need any help?

Our third down defense was atrocious.

 

[Deus Irae]

Stroud, Deaderick, Love, Brace, Wright, G. Warren, Moore


TBC, Guyton, Ninkovich, Fletcher

Not saying the names I added are the end all be all but I certainly don't think it's as dire as some are making it out to be.

Not one of the players you just listed was able to demonstrate conclusively that he was a starter level player last year. The only one who even really flashed at that level was Brace.

Thus the question marks.

 

[skinnydog]

I think the frustrating part of this board is that people seem so intent to gripe that actual act as if there really isn't a plan, and Belichick just forgets that a defense has to rush the passer, and lets great players who would guarantee a SB pass by while he snoozes.
I can accept not understanding the plan, but to conclude not understanding the plan means there isn't one is way too flippant to be taken seriously, IMO.

AJ, can you explain what you think BBs plan is to put more pressure on the QB. I'd really like to hear it.

 

[condon84]

Another thing I'd like to throw out there is the Seymour compensation pick that turned out to be Soder.

 

[Ring 6]

Again to me this is dumb. Why, do you even bother posting here if your attitude is that BB is always correct?

Of course its dumb, because you don't even understand it.
When have I said BB is always correct?
What I have said is he has an enormously larger amount of information at his disposal and is much better qualified to assess it than you (meaning any poster) are.
That does not mean he is always right. If he is right half the time he may be the best ever.
But the poster criticizing his decision before the player has put on a Patriot jockstrap is uninformed. It could be right or wrong, but either is just by dumb luck.
You have every right to give an opinion. But to claim your opinion is more valid than someone who has more facts and a better decision making ability is stupid.
QUESTIONING is very different than DECLARING you are right and the expert who would embarrass you in a side by side evaluation of any player on the board is ignorant.
Those ignorant people consistently fall back to the 'BB isn't always right' argument totally missing the point.

 

[skinnydog]

Sign a stud OLB in FA (and it appears we will have plenty of room in the budget, or cap) and I challenge you to find a position on that defense that you would be confident any player picked today (or even from 17 on yesterday) would have a good chance of starting at.

I'd love to hear whose available as a stud OLB that the Pats might remotely sign.

 

[Urgent]

I do think that BB has forgotten more about drafting players while he went to the bathroom, than any of us and the talking heads in the media willever know.

But that's just MVHO.

This basically sums up the position of the hardcore supporter.
The Patriots have won three Super Bowls. Belichick obviously knows what he is doing with the draft.

But while Belichick is accepted as the best coach in the league, his record in the draft is league average. Some years better - and last year looks very good. And some years worse - check 2006, 2007, and 2008. The Patriots only ended up with one or two contributors from those years in the draft.

His record has been better in free agency. We can point to several dramatic successes, like Vrable, Moss, and Dillon.

But even those Super Bowls were won with a core defense the preceded Belichick's term and a quarterback that we are all terribly lucky happened to last until the sixth round.

I've been a huge fan for a long time, slogging through the slush at Schaefer, suffering through the preseason losses of Veris and Lippett, leaping at the Grogan to Morgan completions and the development of Tom Brady. I've enjoyed this run as someone who saw a couple pretty bad seasons over the years.

But it's hard not to miss the funky drafting this year. The team was armed, and had an opportunity to really address some obvious holes, and chose not to.

It's been argued for a long time that a lot of these college players just don't fit the OLB model for the Pats. Well, it's been a decade, so it's time to figure out how to develop one.

I hope the Pats can fill their holes somehow later, and that a fifth or sixth rounder strikes again like Brady did.

 

[Ring 6]

Another thing I'd like to throw out there is the Seymour compensation pick that turned out to be Soder.

That will probably go down as a great trade for us. LTs are pretty valuable. Much more valuable than keeping a player one more year before his ridiculous contract demands cause you to lose him.

 

[Ring 6]

I'd love to hear whose available as a stud OLB that the Pats might remotely sign.

Well, that would be hard to do, since there is a court battle going on right now which will determine which players are free agents, but a few people today have named some possibilities.
One thing I can guarantee you is that there will be a better OLB available in FA for the 2011 season than anyone we could have drafted.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I actually liked the first 3 picks just fine, and I get why they'd take Mallet.

But Ridley (after Vereen) plus punting on the rest of the draft's middle I don't like at all. An interior lineman like Boling or Moffitt or Fusco, maybe? A flyer on Romeus? Throw us a bone, please?

BB's not in the business to 'throw a bone' to the fans though. For better or worse, he runs the draft the way he believes is best for the Patriots organization. Not to get 'kudos' from the fans.

And the 'vision' BB had for the 2011 draft was apparently to remold the Pats offense.
Premium LT plus two RBs drafted, backup QB 'heir' for Brady acquired. Check, mission accomplished.

His other goal, which was clearly stated at the draft party, was to build extra picks for 2012. Extra 1st round pick in 2012, check. Extra 2nd round pick in 2012, check. Mission accomplished.

I think BB didn't 'need' to draft two RBs but he's been frequently known to 'double up' on areas that he's trying to target. In 2007 he acquired Moss and Welker. In 2010 he acquired Gronkowski and Hernandez, etc. In 2012, the Pats acquired TWO extra picks in the first Two Rounds.

Strength in numbers. BB is an economics major after all.

This basically sums up the position of the hardcore supporter.
The Patriots have won three Super Bowls. Belichick obviously knows what he is doing with the draft.

But while Belichick is accepted as the best coach in the league, his record in the draft is league average. Some years better - and last year looks very good. And some years worse - check 2006, 2007, and 2008. The Patriots only ended up with one or two contributors from those years in the draft.

That's incorrect. A study has been done and the Pats efficiency in the draft has been considered 3rd best in the league from the period of 2000-2004. You might question why a more recent study hasn't been conducted, but you need a certain number of years distance from a draft before you can truly judge its success or failure.

 

[Ring 6]

AJ, can you explain what you think BBs plan is to put more pressure on the QB. I'd really like to hear it.

How would I know that? Do you think he doesnt have one?

 

[shirtsleeve]

Huge injuries. Rookies and second year players all over the field. One of if not the youngest D in the league last season.

Just over 19 ppg against and a #8 ranking in the only stat that matters. This D is locked and loaded. It just needs a bit of health. The kids already got their chompers last year.

Take a pill and forget the yds issues. That is not how this D works. Dont like it? Assassinate BB or cheer for another team.

 

[Ring 6]

Not one of the players you just listed was able to demonstrate conclusively that he was a starter level player last year. The only one who even really flashed at that level was Brace.

Thus the question marks.

Stroud is clearly a starter level DL.

 

[Ring 6]

Huge injuries. Rookies and second year players all over the field. One of if not the youngest D in the league last season.

Just over 19 ppg against and a #8 ranking in the only stat that matters. This D is locked and loaded. It just needs a bit of health. The kids already got their chompers last year.

Take a pill and forget the yds issues. That is not how this D works. Dont like it? Assassinate BB or cheer for another team.

4th in points from game 4 on (after the youngers had a chance to gel)

 

[PYPER]

When we look back on this draft in a few years it will probably be looked at as the point in history that marked the beginning of the end of the Patriots run of excellence. Yes it might take a few years, but THIS was the point where it started to go down hill.

I've always enjoyed your posts Ken but this one is insane. We picked up five players and gained a #1 and #2 for next season. If three of those five players pan out, it'll be an excellent first three rounds. Most teams only have 3 picks in 3 rounds so for three of them to pan out they must hit on 100%. BB's method not only provides room for error but also allows us to repeat the process year after year after year. While every other team will have 3 picks in the first three rounds, we'll continue to have five or six. This is BRILLIANT! How so many fans fail to see this mind boggling.

There is NOTHING I can think of that explains what happened tonight. Forget about all the missed opportunities we had in the first round. We DID end up with a good player, even if it wasn't at the position of our perceived need.

How was OT not one of our perceived needs? I had it as our top priority. Light is old and a free agent. It's likely that he'll want more money than we're willing to pay. In any case, his replacement needed to come from this draft and a starting LT certainly warrants the use of a first round pick.

But how can you explain the following.

1. Ras I Dowling at #33 OK you can rationalize the picking ANOTHER CB - He's big, he's versatile, he's got great straight line speed. However he has a LONG history of injuries, a lack of quickness, and reportedly is just an average tackler. Still I could have lived with the pick.

Long history of injuries? He was injured during his senior year. Prior to that he played 12 games as a freshman, 11 as a sophmore, and 12 as a junior. Saying he has a long history of injuries is like saying Brady has a long history of getting women pregnant out of wedlock. Please....

What I can't live with is the squandering of the draft position. I find it impossible to believe that we couldn't find a trade partner willing to take the spot.

This is the real head scratcher to me. How can anyone question whether BB explored trade possibilities? I mean, gee, if only we had a coach who would get on the phone and try to make a deal once in awhile. Sometimes I think Pats fans should be sent to Cincy to watch Marvin Lewis. Perhaps they'd learn to appreciate Belichick a bit more.

Bill admitted that the Pats had gotten offered on Thursday for the pick. Yet somehow BB felt it was THAT urgent to pick a guy in a position of great depth with a pick that had premium value as trade bait....for a guy many thought was a 3rd round pick.

BB had long discussions with the Raiders but neither side felt comfortable with the others offer. In the end, BB had to decide if the trade offers on the table would allow him to get the player he coveted. While in many cases, he pulls the trigger, in this particular one he felt the best value was in picking the player. Crying about that decision at this juncture is so beneath you. You're smarter than that. You've got to be. For all any of us know, this kid could turn out to be the stud of the entire draft and a future Hall of Famer.

Great depth? I don't know how you can claim great depth when you need to play the likes of Wilhite and Butler. Neither have proven great at anything except giving up completions and touchdowns.

....for a guy many thought was a 3rd round pick.

You've been following this league far too long to still be putting any weight to where "many" think a particular player should go. How can people get so caught up in all the speculation. Especially Pats fans. If any fanbase should be expected to be more savvy in understanding how this process works, it should be the Patriots fanbase. How can you spend years following this team and not learn a damn thing?

 

[shirtsleeve]

This basically sums up the position of the hardcore supporter.
The Patriots have won three Super Bowls. Belichick obviously knows what he is doing with the draft.

But while Belichick is accepted as the best coach in the league, his record in the draft is league average. Some years better - and last year looks very good. And some years worse - check 2006, 2007, and 2008. The Patriots only ended up with one or two contributors from those years in the draft.

His record has been better in free agency. We can point to several dramatic successes, like Vrable, Moss, and Dillon.

But even those Super Bowls were won with a core defense the preceded Belichick's term and a quarterback that we are all terribly lucky happened to last until the sixth round.

I've been a huge fan for a long time, slogging through the slush at Schaefer, suffering through the preseason losses of Veris and Lippett, leaping at the Grogan to Morgan completions and the development of Tom Brady. I've enjoyed this run as someone who saw a couple pretty bad seasons over the years.

But it's hard not to miss the funky drafting this year. The team was armed, and had an opportunity to really address some obvious holes, and chose not to.

It's been argued for a long time that a lot of these college players just don't fit the OLB model for the Pats. Well, it's been a decade, so it's time to figure out how to develop one.

I hope the Pats can fill their holes somehow later, and that a fifth or sixth rounder strikes again like Brady did.

OK this is where you are clueless. Moss and Welker were draft choices. So was Dillon...damn....