The Worst Defense in the History of the World...

[RayClay]

So by your theory, you want the Patriots to sit back and allow first downs, as long as they arent big plays. Teams can do this all the way down the field, and then you are expecting an interception/fumble in the red zone? Is this anyway to play good quarterbacks in the playoffs? Sooner or later you need to get some stops.

No, I am not trolling, that last point was ridiculous.

It's not a theory, it is the way Bill Belichick plays quarterbacks like Peyton manning or Favre or others who will kill you with the long pass, but have less patience and can be sucked into trying for a seemingly open receiver downfield. such as the interception in the actual game wher peyton admitted he made a mistake because the Patriots gave him one look, then changed. the receiver made the correct adjustment, but impatient peyton threw where he thought the receiver would be based on the original false look because Cunningham was in his face. I think it was Gaston.

Why does BB do this against Manning? (or the Rams in the SB or McNab in the SB).

Because, these high powered offenses depend on presuring you with the long pass and making you flinch. Can you sack Manning regularly? Just try. You miss, he'll put the ball where that blitz came from and burn you bad (for touchdowns).

Can you cover all his receivers tightly while still bringing normal pressure? Just try. With some time he will pick you apart and go for the longest possible option. He wants to pressure you and make you crazy trying to adjust and is willing to miss a few to get that bomb.

On the other hand, we played the Jets and had a much different outcome on third down, stopping the 3out of evry 4 times. Did we heal all our problems suddenly? I think not. I think our game plan for the jets was much different. The Jets run, the Jets have physical receivers who can turn a short pass into a long gain. And Sanchez sucks compard to the top QBs.

No reason to let Sanchez get going. We still start out safe, we don't want anyone to get ahead. however, as soon as he has any success in the short game, we're going to make him work. we don't want him moving the chains, completing 3rd down passes, mixing in the run. Look at the Jets stats. Assuming we played the defense we wanted in each, we played a whole different way there.

BB not only game plans defense, he game plans depending on how our offense plays. Given a big lead, he will make any team waste a lot of time for a score. The last thing in the world he wants is for a team to score in a minute when we have a big lead. If we are having trouble scoring in that game he might play more like we played against the Jets.

This is, of course, simplistic. He has played big passers many ways, hitting the receivers, the Marshall Faulk bump plan. But, in general, the last thing he wants to see from a high powered offense, is their receivers flying by our defense for touchdowns.

 

[RayClay]

And the Patriots don't "let" Manning throw for first downs anymore than they "let" sanchez throw for touchdowns when they play tight and pressure him on third down. It's a matter of emphasis. The patriots are not going to allow a touchdown pass from Manning because they went balls to the wall with pressure and double coverage of receivers 10 yards from the line.

Even if they didn't get three interceptions, having to get first down after first down is not Peyton's style since he'd always go for the downs every play if he found someone open. we slow him down, we make him play the style Brady is much better at than him.

If we didn't have a lead, we'd obviously have to take more risks on third down. We did have a lead. 28 yds long reception.

 

[The Dynasty]

It's not a theory, it is the way Bill Belichick plays quarterbacks like Peyton manning or Favre or others who will kill you with the long pass, but have less patience and can be sucked into trying for a seemingly open receiver downfield. such as the interception in the actual game wher peyton admitted he made a mistake because the Patriots gave him one look, then changed. the receiver made the correct adjustment, but impatient peyton threw where he thought the receiver would be based on the original false look because Cunningham was in his face. I think it was Gaston.

Why does BB do this against Manning? (or the Rams in the SB or McNab in the SB).

Because, these high powered offenses depend on presuring you with the long pass and making you flinch. Can you sack Manning regularly? Just try. You miss, he'll put the ball where that blitz came from and burn you bad (for touchdowns).

Can you cover all his receivers tightly while still bringing normal pressure? Just try. With some time he will pick you apart and go for the longest possible option. He wants to pressure you and make you crazy trying to adjust and is willing to miss a few to get that bomb.

On the other hand, we played the Jets and had a much different outcome on third down, stopping the 3out of evry 4 times. Did we heal all our problems suddenly? I think not. I think our game plan for the jets was much different. The Jets run, the Jets have physical receivers who can turn a short pass into a long gain. And Sanchez sucks compard to the top QBs.

No reason to let Sanchez get going. We still start out safe, we don't want anyone to get ahead. however, as soon as he has any success in the short game, we're going to make him work. we don't want him moving the chains, completing 3rd down passes, mixing in the run. Look at the Jets stats. Assuming we played the defense we wanted in each, we played a whole different way there.

BB not only game plans defense, he game plans depending on how our offense plays. Given a big lead, he will make any team waste a lot of time for a score. The last thing in the world he wants is for a team to score in a minute when we have a big lead. If we are having trouble scoring in that game he might play more like we played against the Jets.

This is, of course, simplistic. He has played big passers many ways, hitting the receivers, the Marshall Faulk bump plan. But, in general, the last thing he wants to see from a high powered offense, is their receivers flying by our defense for touchdowns.

I know how the Patriots and Belichick operate, thanks.

You are only half right. The Patriots and Belichick's main goal on defense is to prevent the big play, and in doing that they allow yards to be had and first downs to be given up. This is why the Patriots struggle in the yards category because of them sitting back preventing against the big play on defense, and there is nothing wrong with this approach as long as you can buckle down and stay true to the "bend but dont break and take" defense.

This is also only effective when you are playing with leads. This is why the Patriots defense is so effective because of the Patriots offense and their ability to put up so many points. If the Patriots fall behind it is extremely difficult to play this defense because you need quick stops to get the ball back to the offense. The Patriots really have not had to play any other style of defense this whole year, so it would be very interesting to see what would happen if the Patriots were put in that position in the playoffs.

You cannot play like this every play and every down against good quarterbacks because they will pick you apart as the game goes on. A good example of this is the Colts game, the Patriots sat back and protected the lead and protected against the big play then once Manning and the Colts were threatening Belichick had Cunningham blitz and he got to Manning and hit his arm/the ball as he was throwing forcing the poor throw. You need to blitz every once in awhile because good quarterbacks will take advantage of having all day to throw all day long.

In the playoffs the Patriots style of "bend but dont break and take" defense is risky because they are working with the youngest defense in the whole league. It is really hard to depend on rookies and 2nd year players to make big plays in the postseason going against previous Super Bowl MVPs. I am not suggesting that Belichick change his entire approach, I am just saying that it is risky.

 

[ausbacker]

No it's not! I have given actual examples, 2 of our 3 Super Bowls, for instance. Failing to protect against the big play and giving up touchdowns over the top is riskier! Why do you think giving the top qbs in the game lots of chances to go long is safe? It is not logical.

People complain that BB should take more risks by playing tight and sending more people on the rush. Manning had a long pass of 28 yards including YAC. That's playing it safe and forcing the QB to take the risk.

Our defense requires patience and planning. It is very frustrating for QBs that like to go wide open.

Not sure what you are trying to say here, I am not looking for the Patriots to change their whole defensive philosophy. They are weak in the pass rushing area, so they will never be a blitzing team. They play a "bend but dont break and take" defense. It is really risky to expect good quarterbacks to turn the ball over to a young and inexperienced defense. It's a huge positive when it happens, but you cannot depend on it.

RayClay I think it's time that we all accept that The Dynasty is an idiot and is arguing for the sake of it. The guy is trying to dissect the Patriots defensive philosophy and tells you you're only half right for describing the system perfectly. Keep the ball in front of you and force/wait for the mistake.

RayClay did you know that you can't depend on the defense to play their style of defense even though that same style carried the Patriots to 4 Superbowl appearances between 2000-2009 whilst blossoming toward the later part of the season in 2010? Did you also know that the Colts game was a great example of what The Dynasty is attempting to force down our throats despite the defense sealing the game and preserving the lead ending up with a win? Did you know that you cannot depend on a young defense to force turnovers in the playoffs because good Quarterbacks don't turn the ball over in the playoffs despite historical data suggesting otherwise and the Patriots defense ranked 1 in the NFL in turnovers?

It's mind boggling to me how stupid this guy is.

 

[Joker]

It's mind boggling to me how stupid this guy is.

yeah...he reminds me of that recording "The Last Blast Of The Blasted Bugler"...check it out and imagine Diner-sty is Gunga Din...

YouTube - "The Last Blast Of The Blasted Bugler"

 

[The Dynasty]

It's mind boggling to me how stupid this guy is.

yeah...he reminds me of that recording "The Last Blast Of The Blasted Bugler"...check it out and imagine Diner-sty is Gunga Din...

YouTube - "The Last Blast Of The Blasted Bugler"

Do you ever post anything football related?

 

[Joker]

nothing your three deformed dwarf brain cells could understand...Gunga Diner-sty

 

[RayClay]

I know how the Patriots and Belichick operate, thanks.

You are only half right. The Patriots and Belichick's main goal on defense is to prevent the big play, and in doing that they allow yards to be had and first downs to be given up. This is why the Patriots struggle in the yards category because of them sitting back preventing against the big play on defense, and there is nothing wrong with this approach as long as you can buckle down and stay true to the "bend but dont break and take" defense.

This is also only effective when you are playing with leads. This is why the Patriots defense is so effective because of the Patriots offense and their ability to put up so many points. If the Patriots fall behind it is extremely difficult to play this defense because you need quick stops to get the ball back to the offense. The Patriots really have not had to play any other style of defense this whole year, so it would be very interesting to see what would happen if the Patriots were put in that position in the playoffs.

You cannot play like this every play and every down against good quarterbacks because they will pick you apart as the game goes on. A good example of this is the Colts game, the Patriots sat back and protected the lead and protected against the big play then once Manning and the Colts were threatening Belichick had Cunningham blitz and he got to Manning and hit his arm/the ball as he was throwing forcing the poor throw. You need to blitz every once in awhile because good quarterbacks will take advantage of having all day to throw all day long.

In the playoffs the Patriots style of "bend but dont break and take" defense is risky because they are working with the youngest defense in the whole league. It is really hard to depend on rookies and 2nd year players to make big plays in the postseason going against previous Super Bowl MVPs. I am not suggesting that Belichick change his entire approach, I am just saying that it is risky.

Glad you agree with everything i said now.

Please reread how we played the Jets differently and stopped them on third downs. thank you.

As i said before, not having played from behind, they can't prove they can or can't stop teams when trailing.

We did (again) stop the Jets from making first downs, they just sucked out loud so bad on defense that game we didn't have the test.

They coverted only 3-12 on 3rd down and we held them to 3 points.

They held us to 4-10 on 3rd down and held us to only 45 points, showing how important that crucial 3rd down statistic is.

We need to increase our 3rd down efficiency and maybe drop 100 on them next time.

 

[goheels22002]

The Dolphins game and bye week are huge for this defense. Getting Spikes back with his now-approved ADD medication with a couple of weeks to prepare is a tremendous boost and the defensive front needs a break. The 12th man will be pumped at home in the cold and there's little to worry about with the other 11 barring any injuries this week.

With San Diego out of this tournament, the only QB left in the AFC that creeps me out is Manning and it is not clear that he gets in at this point. Even if he does, that team is so debilitated by injuries that it's hard to see how the Colts keep up with the Pats offensively or keep from turning it over to this defense.

I don't see an AFC QB in the playoffs that can stretch the defense with any accuracy, avoid turnovers and manage the multiple sets he'll see from BB. Matt Cassell presents a new challenge but he's a medium to short passing threat to a couple of good receivers. Roethlisberger is a punching bag in what is a short season for him with a banged up and slow offensive line, and what's to worry about with Garrard, Flacco, and Sanchez?

This defense is quick to the ball and increasingly disciplined staying in their lanes and filling their assigned gaps. The early big play like we saw last year against the Ravens just doesn't seem like it will happen again. On the opposite side of the ball, the only defense that succeeded against the Patriots post-Moss and Maroney was the Ravens and that was Branch's first game back with the Patriots. The offense is somewhat improved since that game.

I think "the worst defense in the history of the world" can hold all these teams to under 24 points and get a couple of turnovers per game at home and rely on the offense to put up 24 or more. I like the way this is shaping up for a run.

 

[The Dynasty]

Glad you agree with everything i said now.

Please reread how we played the Jets differently and stopped them on third downs. thank you.

As i said before, not having played from behind, they can't prove they can or can't stop teams when trailing.

We did (again) stop the Jets from making first downs, they just sucked out loud so bad on defense that game we didn't have the test.

They coverted only 3-12 on 3rd down and we held them to 3 points.

They held us to 4-10 on 3rd down and held us to only 45 points, showing how important that crucial 3rd down statistic is.

We need to increase our 3rd down efficiency and maybe drop 100 on them next time.

You keep changing the argument to defense as whole, to now third down conversions. While the 3rd down conversion stat is not the most important defense stat, if it continually is bad it will lead to points. In the playoffs you cannot keep giving the opposing offenses 2nd/3rd and 4th chances on drives. These quarterbacks will make you pay and put points on the board. The defense gets gassed, as shown in the Green Bay game and that will have a major effect on the team in the 4th quarter. You say that havent proven they can beat teams from behind, that is true and that havent really been tested with that, but isnt the chances of them succeeding slim, when they have never had to do it? Say the offenses struggles and the defense is forced to play a more pressure defense, something that they havent had to do all season, are you confident they can get it done?

The way that the Patriots play defense is very risky when you are dealing with the majority of the roster that has never won a playoff game. You are expecting these young and inexperienced guys to make plays over guys who are veterans in the playoffs and even won an MVP. Do you really feel comfortable allowing guys like Manning and Roethisberger march down the field and then counting on the defense to step up and get a turnover in the red zone? Belichick and the Patriots have no reason to change their approach and philosophy on defense because its the way Belichick has always operated and this defense will be unbelievable in 2011/2012 and beyond, I just think this year in 2010 its risky because of the lack of experience and expectancy to make big plays on the big stage.

I am not saying the Patriots defense cannot succeed, I am just saying people are going overboard with this defense and overrating it. People need to remember it is in its first year really and has not been put into some big time situations yet.

 

[RayClay]

While the 3rd down conversion stat is not the most important defense stat.

It was pretty damned important a few pages ago. You'll be repeating my whole argument back to me pretty soon, I'm in no rush. Another few hundred posts.

 

[ddanny1992]

People need to remember it is in its first year really and has not been put into some big time situations yet.

Have you watched any of the game this year? Defense was able to stop the ravens allowing the game to go overtime and win the game in overtime. Chargers game. defense comes up with a huge 3rd down stop to force a field goal that missed to tie the game, final result we win the game. Colts game, defense was able to come up with a game winning interception. Steelers game, defense was blitzing, coming up with sacks and it worked, they went into prevent mode in the 4th quarter, they still win the game. Jets game, 3 points total, need I say more? Chicago game, snowy conditions, we still win the game. At the end of the day, yes defense gives up yards but are those yards for 20+ or more consistently? No! offense play us like Patriots would play them, dink and dunk. If you don't believe me look at the Green Bay game, what did they do? short quick passes, intermediate passes, only one long pass that was let go for a touchdown thanks to Big Bang clock. You keep saying the same thing over and over again, that the playoffs this, the playoffs that. Are you telling me that defense will not be able to come up with a turnover in the playoffs because the quarterback is too good? Name me one other team that has been playing mistake-free football in the past 7 games other than the Patriots.

 

[The Dynasty]

It was pretty damned important a few pages ago. You'll be repeating my whole argument back to me pretty soon, I'm in no rush. Another few hundred posts.

You are putting words into my mouth. 3rd down defense is part of the entire body of work, equally as important as any other defensive stat.

 

[The Dynasty]

Have you watched any of the game this year? Defense was able to stop the ravens allowing the game to go overtime and win the game in overtime. Chargers game. defense comes up with a huge 3rd down stop to force a field goal that missed to tie the game, final result we win the game. Colts game, defense was able to come up with a game winning interception. Steelers game, defense was blitzing, coming up with sacks and it worked, they went into prevent mode in the 4th quarter, they still win the game. Jets game, 3 points total, need I say more? Chicago game, snowy conditions, we still win the game. At the end of the day, yes defense gives up yards but are those yards for 20+ or more consistently? No! offense play us like Patriots would play them, dink and dunk. If you don't believe me look at the Green Bay game, what did they do? short quick passes, intermediate passes, only one long pass that was let go for a touchdown thanks to Big Bang clock. You keep saying the same thing over and over again, that the playoffs this, the playoffs that. Are you telling me that defense will not be able to come up with a turnover in the playoffs because the quarterback is too good? Name me one other team that has been playing mistake-free football in the past 7 games other than the Patriots.

By big time situations I meant playoff games.

What happens in the regular season is thrown out the window come playoff time. I am not saying that the Patriots defense will not be able to come up with turnovers in the playoffs, I am saying that it is a risky way to approach things with such a young defense with hardly any playoff experience when they could be facing quarterbacks that have been in the playoffs many times. The defense is so dependent on the offense where I worry if the offense doesnt put up 20 points I worry the defense cannot play well enough to win the game.

 

[ddanny1992]

I am saying that it is a risky way to approach things with such a young defense with hardly any playoff experience when they could be facing quarterbacks that have been in the playoffs many times

What is so risky about it? Turnovers cause the momentum to switch. Turnovers don't just happen, defense has to work for it and also have some luck. There are schemes that go into the game plan for the quarterback that the defense is facing. If you are concerned about the offense, you have to remember we have the #1 scoring offense in the NFL and most of the playoff teams we will have to face we have already beaten. Try not to worry too much, come playoff times we will see who was wrong and right.

 

[The Dynasty]

What is so risky about it? Turnovers cause the momentum to switch. Turnovers don't just happen, defense has to work for it and also have some luck. There are schemes that go into the game plan for the quarterback that the defense is facing. If you are concerned about the offense, you have to remember we have the #1 scoring offense in the NFL and most of the playoff teams we will have to face we have already beaten. Try not to worry too much, come playoff times we will see who was wrong and right.

Because generally speaking good quarterbacks in the playoffs play better than in the regular season and dont turn the ball over as much (there are a few exceptions). Tough to expect this young and inexperienced defense to get turnovers, they can happen but really risky to depend on them.

I am not worried about the offense not scoring, but look at the '07 Super Bowl, they didnt score as much as they did during the regular season and look at what happened. I am worried if the offense does not perform like it did during the regular season that the defense cannot get it done, especially if they fall behind and have to play a more pressure based defense.

 

[ddanny1992]

Superbowl 07 is in the past. We have to move on from it, we are a different team now than we were 3 years ago. New Orleans Saints is a team that last year its defense thrives off turnovers, and they made it all the way. You one thing? We don't know what exactly is the identity this team is, most people will agree that the identity of this team is to cause turnovers that may be true. In my opinion, this defense is made to stop the run first and cause the opposing team to be one dimensional and throw the football, and that's where our number 1 in the league in interceptions come from. I know we give up the yards in the run, but we are tough to grind out a couple of yards, with the bye weeks that we have injured players will be getting rest and we will have our run stopping guys back.

 

[The Dynasty]

Superbowl 07 is in the past. We have to move on from it, we are a different team now than we were 3 years ago. New Orleans Saints is a team that last year its defense thrives off turnovers, and they made it all the way. You one thing? We don't know what exactly is the identity this team is, most people will agree that the identity of this team is to cause turnovers that may be true. In my opinion, this defense is made to stop the run first and cause the opposing team to be one dimensional and throw the football, and that's where our number 1 in the league in interceptions come from. I know we give up the yards in the run, but we are tough to grind out a couple of yards, with the bye weeks that we have injured players will be getting rest and we will have our run stopping guys back.

What? This makes no sense. Do you actually understand what you are watching on TV? The defense is not built to stop the run, their strongest position and where they are deepest in is in the secondary. They are very thin at the DL position and even when they are 100% healthy the DL definitely below average. Wilfork cannot do everything. I think number one in the league in interceptions comes from the secondary being able to make plays, but also the offense jumping out to double digit leads and the opposing offense needing to score and score in a hurry therefore needing to pass the ball every down and sometimes force throws trying to make a play.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Because generally speaking good quarterbacks in the playoffs play better than in the regular season and dont turn the ball over as much (there are a few exceptions). Tough to expect this young and inexperienced defense to get turnovers, they can happen but really risky to depend on them.

Actually it's mixed. In the AFC you have Flacco, Roeth, Sanchez, Cassel and Manning. Flacco and Sachez have nothing to write home about. Peyton can be great, but is succeptable to making bad decisions in the playoffs. Cassel's next playoff game is his first and Roeth has been erratic all year. We are not facing Montana, Starr and Staubach here....

I am not worried about the offense not scoring, but look at the '07 Super Bowl, they didnt score as much as they did during the regular season and look at what happened.

Different team. Different circumstances. 07 was running on fumes and lost K. Brady, Faulk and Neal during the game and TB had a mangled foot. Stuff happens.

I am worried if the offense does not perform like it did during the regular season that the defense cannot get it done, especially if they fall behind and have to play a more pressure based defense.

We are all worried about that but how the team won in the regular season does not mean that they won't win that way in the post-season.

In 4 playoff games, the 1985 Patriots forced 15 turnovers. In the regular season they had 23 INTs and forced 6 more fumbles than their they coughed it up. It has happened.

 

[The Dynasty]

Actually it's mixed. In the AFC you have Flacco, Roeth, Sanchez, Cassel and Manning. Flacco and Sachez have nothing to write home about. Peyton can be great, but is succeptable to making bad decisions in the playoffs. Cassel's next playoff game is his first and Roeth has been erratic all year. We are not facing Montana, Starr and Staubach here....

Sanchez and Cassel I agree, havent done anything. Flacco beat the Patriots last year, but really hasnt had a great postseason career. I am very nervous about Manning and the Colts. I just dont have a good feeling about Manning going against this young Patriots defense in the playoffs. Roethisberger has been very successful in the postseason. I agree the Patriots are not facing the quarterbacks you named, but look at the Patriots defense they are not the '86 Bears...

Different team. Different circumstances. 07 was running on fumes and lost K. Brady, Faulk and Neal during the game and TB had a mangled foot. Stuff happens.

I was just making a point that just because a team is #1 in offense during the regular season doesnt mean that it is a guarantee it will continue. It can struggle.

We are all worried about that but how the team won in the regular season does not mean that they won't win that way in the post-season.

In 4 playoff games, the 1985 Patriots forced 15 turnovers. In the regular season they had 23 INTs and forced 6 more fumbles than their they coughed it up. It has happened.

The wild card with this years Patriots team is their youth and inexperience. It can happen, I am not denying it. It just comes with a great deal of risk.