The Worst Defense in the History of the World...

[jays52]

So, I guess that the central question here is "can this defense win a championship?". Amazing how expectations for this season have changed since September, isn't it? The more I watch this defense and the more I think about it, the more I believe it can. The Green Bay game was a product of injuries/suspension and execution both of which should be solved in the playoffs. Throw the statistical argument out here, and give it the eye test.

This defense is fast, really fast. They swarm to the ball and very seldom give up a big play. They are strong in the red zone. When they have the horses they are good against the run. They are phenomenal up the middle. They have a top 3 d-lineman, a stud Will, and a lockdown corner. They tackle well when executing. They are extremely well coached and physical. Yes, they are inconsistent, but shine in critical games. There's more to this though.

While it is reasonable to doubt if they can straight up win the game, it is clear that they can make a play. They defend short fields well and create turnovers. The powerful thing is that when they need to make a play they do. It is overwhelmingly true. They create turnovers in key situations. They hold teams to field goals when they have to, and they score. There will be a time in the playoffs when they need to make a play and they will. By definition, that is a defense that can win a championship.

 

[The Dynasty]

My discussion was about the last 11 games. That is the time period I was discussing. I accept they were not as good the first 3. That is not selectively picking games that is assessing a time period from the point they started to 'get it'.
For the third time, I am not making excuses, I am stating that the run D was the biggest issue, and they were short handed. They played how they played, that is not excusing them, but to say that play is what you will see with injured players back is short sighted.

Then when including the Jets in the last 11 games you shouldnt include the Patriots game because that wasnt a game that showed how the Jets have played all season long. If you are going to take out 3 games from the Patriots that make them look better, shouldnt you do the same for the team that you are comparing them to? I am just trying to make a fair comparison. The Patriots were without some of the defensive linemen, the Packers were without their starting quarterback. The Patriots should have been able to stop the Packers on more third downs than they did, which would have significantly decreased their time on the field. You said that the Patriots defense was on the field for over 80 plays, but the Patriots could have prevented that from happening with the guys that were on the field.

Of course it is. Turnover differential correlates to winning better than any other stat. The difference is more than 25%, that is huge. Those 6 additional turnovers have an awful lot to do with the 2 game advantage the Patriots have.

You claimed that the Patriots defense was better than the Jets. Stop backing out from that statement. I gave you all of those major defense stats where the Jets had a clear advantage over the Patriots. I am not saying the Jets are better than the Patriots, I am saying the Jets have a better defense than the Patriots. You are an idiot if you really think otherwise. You dont even need stats to compare the two, just watch the two teams play from week to week.

Points is what decides games. Unless you get your way and statistics or a poll of the crowd decide who wins, points are the statistic that matters. Are you seriously going to tell me you would rather allow more points and less yards?
I am using the stats that matter.
1) The TRUE indicator of what you allowed the other offense to do that really mattered...points
2) Taking the ball away, which allows your offense or defense to score more points
3) When you allow those points.

Do you really think yards matter more than that?

No, but yards and all the other stats that I gave all go into that. And you mention points. The Jets give up 18.5 points per game, while the Patriots give up 21.6.

I ASKED if you want to reconsider your comment that only an 'absolute moron' would say the Patriots defense is better than the Jets and would lose all credibility by saying so, after showing you AREAS AND WAYS IN WHICH THE PATRIOTS DEFENSE HAS BEEN BETTER.
Again, Mr Strawman, I did not say the Patriots defense was better, I disputed your comment that ONLY A MORON would say so, by showing you how an intelligent person could show evidence of that claim.

You're a liar. You did say that the Patriots defense was better than the Jets. You showed how over the past 11 games the Patriots have a better net point advantage over the Jets. Thats the only thing you really showed me. What about the full season? What about all of the other defensive stats?

Are you 3? They have injuries and you say that is their own fault? Duh, who said it was someone elses.
You did not list Pryor or Deadrick who also missed most of the game.
If you want to project that the way they played with 3 healthy DL and using a 260 lb OLB at DE most of the game, and having no choice but to leave Wilfork out there 75 plays to how they will play when 3 more DLs are available, go ahead, but you might as well start another long thread on what will happen to the passing game if Welker and Branch both get hurt and cant play.

I didnt say the injuries were their fault, again you struggle in the reading comprehension department. I said it was their fault for being on the field for so many plays, they had plenty of chances to stop the Packers on third down and get off the field. You are really saying that Pryor, Brace, Wright and Spikes are to the defense what Branch and Welker are to the offense. You really are a moron.

As I said, aside from one play, his net yards per pass were 4, which is very, very low. Without a strong running game, he really wouldnt have moved the ball. And he read the defense and threw to the man the play called for. Do you expect him to drop back and pee his pants?

Well you would think thats what a Belichick defense (and how good this Patriots defense is, as you are claiming) would have made a guy making his first NFL start do-be extremely uncomfortable in the pocket and force bad throws. Not give him all day to throw and find an open receiver.

You are arguing that allowing the other team to tie the game and send it to overtime then getting a pick 6 is the same or even better than stopping the other team and not allowing them to tie the game. Thats just flat out stupid.
There is a tremendous difference between succeeding and failing but then making up for the failure later.

No, I am not. You didnt give the Ravens any credit for their pick 6. You claimed that other defenses dont come up in the clutch as much as the Patriots. I gave an example where the Ravens did, and you said well they blew a 21 point lead so therefore their clutch pick 6 in OT is not impressive. The Ravens still made a clutch play.

Dude, this isnt an argument. This is you searching for things that you can criticize the Patriots defense about and project into a playoff loss, and me redirecting the discussion to what matters.
My point is that the Patriot defense has done its job consistently in protecting leads, and in allowing the offense to expand leads. They have not allowed a 4th quarter tying or go ahead score all season. They keep the other team off the board so the offense can expand the lead.
Spare me the technical debate line drawing. You keep arguing against things I never said and saying I said them, even after I point it out 5 times. Telling me what my argument is about is hilarious at this point.

No, its not searching its reality. If the Patriots defense has to rely on a last possession stop to win against a back up quarterback making his first NFL start, wouldnt that be concern for what could happen in the playoffs? The defense has been successful in protecting leads, but again I showed you that the Patriots have not been in many close 4th quarters. Almost all of their wins they have had a double digit lead in the 4th. It is incredibly easier to protect a double digit lead, than a one possession lead. Most likely you wont blow out every team you play in the playoffs, and have a double digit lead in every 4th quarter. This years Patriots defense definitely has its reasons for concern in the playoffs.

And that is stupid. The team that scores the most points deserves to win. Not the team that does things better that do not lead to scoring more points. The game is decided by who scores more points. The team that does this deserves to win.
How can the Packers deserve to win when they have the opportunity to and do not? If they deserved to win, wouldnt they have scored again, or stopped the Patriots one more time?
Your argument is that if you got a better grade on a test than me, but I studied more, dressed better, arrived earlier, and was in a better mood, then I deserved a better grade. Its foolish.

Part of being a good team is winning a few games that you dont deserve to win. An example of this is the Ravens game in 2007. Did the Patriots deserve to win that game? No, but they did and those games happen with good teams. Good teams/fans admit this and learn from where they went wrong and get better.

 

[ausbacker]

EFA - Random crap, more random crap, some more crap and for good measure the ultimate in crap.

Good to see the awesome defense of the Jets is 1 Field Goal a game better than the Patriots when it comes to scoring against.

It's become entertaining watching your one man marching band The Dynasty.

 

[Kontradiction]

So, I guess that the central question here is "can this defense win a championship?". Amazing how expectations for this season have changed since September, isn't it? The more I watch this defense and the more I think about it, the more I believe it can. The Green Bay game was a product of injuries/suspension and execution both of which should be solved in the playoffs. Throw the statistical argument out here, and give it the eye test.

This defense is fast, really fast. They swarm to the ball and very seldom give up a big play. They are strong in the red zone. When they have the horses they are good against the run. They are phenomenal up the middle. They have a top 3 d-lineman, a stud Will, and a lockdown corner. They tackle well when executing. They are extremely well coached and physical. Yes, they are inconsistent, but shine in critical games. There's more to this though.

While it is reasonable to doubt if they can straight up win the game, it is clear that they can make a play. They defend short fields well and create turnovers. The powerful thing is that when they need to make a play they do. It is overwhelmingly true. They create turnovers in key situations. They hold teams to field goals when they have to, and they score. There will be a time in the playoffs when they need to make a play and they will. By definition, that is a defense that can win a championship.

Not sure if you intended your post to make a person want to run through a wall, but that's the effect that it has. I'm pumped up right now, for some reason.

 

[Ring 6]

You're a liar. You did say that the Patriots defense was better than the Jets.

OK, now you call me a liar? I want you to go find MY WORDS in this thread where I say that. When you can't I want an apology. I am done with you, Mr Strawman.

 

[The Dynasty]

OK, now you call me a liar? I want you to go find MY WORDS in this thread where I say that. When you can't I want an apology. I am done with you, Mr Strawman.

What are you saying in the paragraph below?

The defense is not above average, it probably barely is average in many areas in a vaccuum. But you dont play in a vaccuum. The Ravens are a statistically superior defense to the Patriots yet the Ravens D consistently fails in the 4th quarter and ours does not. I am sure you think the Raven defense is better than the Patriots because it destroys awful teams. (Same with the Jets)That will not help it in the playoffs but the fact that they consistently fail in the 4th quarter will kill them against good teams.
The Patriot defense has shown that it consistently steps up in the 4th quarter. That it takes the ball away. As was proven,contrary to your opinion, takeaways are more common and more important in the post-season.

Seems to me like you are saying that the Jets are better than the Patriots because the Jets have failed in the 4th quarter, while the Patriots have not.

 

[mgcolby]

So, I guess that the central question here is "can this defense win a championship?". Amazing how expectations for this season have changed since September, isn't it? The more I watch this defense and the more I think about it, the more I believe it can. The Green Bay game was a product of injuries/suspension and execution both of which should be solved in the playoffs. Throw the statistical argument out here, and give it the eye test.

This defense is fast, really fast. They swarm to the ball and very seldom give up a big play. They are strong in the red zone. When they have the horses they are good against the run. They are phenomenal up the middle. They have a top 3 d-lineman, a stud Will, and a lockdown corner. They tackle well when executing. They are extremely well coached and physical. Yes, they are inconsistent, but shine in critical games. There's more to this though.

While it is reasonable to doubt if they can straight up win the game, it is clear that they can make a play. They defend short fields well and create turnovers. The powerful thing is that when they need to make a play they do. It is overwhelmingly true. They create turnovers in key situations. They hold teams to field goals when they have to, and they score. There will be a time in the playoffs when they need to make a play and they will. By definition, that is a defense that can win a championship.

Maybe I'm alone in this thought. But, I have all the faith in the world in this defense...when it counts. Do they give up a ton of yards? Yes. Do they make your balls crawl back inside your scrodum several times a game? Yes. But when they need to make a play, a stop, they have consistently come through this season. No if ands or butts.

I knew...yes I will repeat...I knew, they would make the stop on that last drive Sunday night. And low and behold they did it not ONCE but TWICE!!!

I don't care what this defense is catagorized as, I know what they ARE! And that is all that matters.

But if it makes the chicken littles feel better. We could be the Ravens defense statistically dominat in every defensive stat possible...except that dumb meaningless holding a lead in the 4th quarter stat. Or points allowed in the 4th quarter.

But hey we all know the magical, first ballot Hall of Fame QB's that the Ravens will face in the playoffs will make mistakes in the fourth quarter, because after all what has happened in the regular season cannot possibly carry over to the Playoffs! So the Ravens are golden with a 4th quarter lead come January!

 

[The Dynasty]

Good to see the awesome defense of the Jets is 1 Field Goal a game better than the Patriots when it comes to scoring against.

It's become entertaining watching your one man marching band The Dynasty.

Just like the Patriots have .5 a game more takeaways than the Jets?

Actually contribute instead of just saying "The Dynasty is an idiot", if you feel like commenting.

 

[ausbacker]

Just like the Patriots have .5 a game more takeaways than the Jets?

Actually contribute instead of just saying "The Dynasty is an idiot", if you feel like commenting.

I commented for many pages and illustrated what a hypocritical and unintelligent fool you've been in this thread. Don't attempt to paint yourself as a voice of reason and rational thinking ability now.

 

[Joker]

You claimed that the Patriots defense was better than the Jets. Stop backing out from that statement. I gave you all of those major defense stats where the Jets had a clear advantage over the Patriots. I am not saying the Jets are better than the Patriots, I am saying the Jets have a better defense than the Patriots. You are an idiot if you really think otherwise. You dont even need stats to compare the two, just watch the two teams play from week to week.

look you indecipherable Jet troll moron...to use YOUR own words,"just watch the two teams play from week to week"...what happened toe sucker lover, you MISS 45-3 a few weeks back???...sorta bludgeons your "theory' like a taffeta pinata caught in a chainsaw factory.

 

[The Dynasty]

You claimed that the Patriots defense was better than the Jets. Stop backing out from that statement. I gave you all of those major defense stats where the Jets had a clear advantage over the Patriots. I am not saying the Jets are better than the Patriots, I am saying the Jets have a better defense than the Patriots. You are an idiot if you really think otherwise. You dont even need stats to compare the two, just watch the two teams play from week to week.

look you indecipherable Jet troll moron...to use YOUR own words,"just watch the two teams play from week to week"...what happened toe sucker lover, you MISS 45-3 a few weeks back???...sorta bludgeons your "theory' like a taffeta pinata caught in a chainsaw factory.

Then whats the Patriots 34-14 game in Cleveland? I think I can add you to the list of morons in this thread.

I am not a Jets troll, just stating facts about the Patriots that their defense may not be as good as people think and may not be able to get it done in the playoffs.

 

[Joker]

you're a crazy person....the Patriots PLAYED the Jets...the score was 45-3...THAT buries your whole rat troll premise...,the Jets defense matched up against the Patriots and vice versa...what NE did against Cleveland has ZERO to with anything. Obviously you are mentally disturbed...you say "Jets better D!!!!!", they play, the Pats show a FAR BETTER D, and you say "Jets better D!!!"...you see what a complete imbecile you come across as? How can you even BEGIN to defend your defenseless position? Try this "Patriots are 12-2 and the Jets 10-4...Jets are better!!!!"...maybe you'll have more luck...

 

[The Dynasty]

you're a crazy person....the Patriots PLAYED the Jets...the score was 45-3...THAT buries your whole rat troll premise...,the Jets defense matched up against the Patriots and vice versa...what NE did against Cleveland has ZERO to with anything. Obviously you are mentally disturbed...you say "Jets better D!!!!!", they play, the Pats show a FAR BETTER D, and you say "Jets better D!!!"...you see what a complete imbecile you come across as? How can you even BEGIN to defend your defenseless position? Try this "Patriots are 12-2 and the Jets 10-4...Jets are better!!!!"...maybe you'll have more luck...

One game never determines whether a particular unit is better than another teams. Only a moron would think that. Patriots fans should know this more than any other team. Was the '07 Giants offense better than the '07 Patriots offense just because the Giants won in the Super Bowl?

 

[Joker]

no...only a moron keeps up the same pretzel logic insanity as an entire board eviscerates him day by day. Your "thesis" is built on "no one game!!!" now is it? OK, Pats 12-2, Jets 10-4...seems the Pats O,D,and ST's have put up a 2 game better record than your beloved toe sniffing green criminals.We know it hurts you...that is why you keep this charade up and change your argument in mid stream hundreds of times...face it, you LOST your argument last week about a 100 posts ago...now you're playing out the Black Knight role from Monty Python, trying to gum everyone to death.Fortunately, the playoffs start soon and when your dire predictions and wing nutty "mightisms" prove to be as moronic then as they are now, YOU will be long gone...replaced by God only knows what other backhanded compliment handle you dream up like the turgid "DYNASTY".

 

[Deus Irae]

you're a crazy person....the Patriots PLAYED the Jets...the score was 45-3...THAT buries your whole rat troll premise...,the Jets defense matched up against the Patriots and vice versa...what NE did against Cleveland has ZERO to with anything. Obviously you are mentally disturbed...you say "Jets better D!!!!!", they play, the Pats show a FAR BETTER D, and you say "Jets better D!!!"...you see what a complete imbecile you come across as? How can you even BEGIN to defend your defenseless position? Try this "Patriots are 12-2 and the Jets 10-4...Jets are better!!!!"...maybe you'll have more luck...

The Jets beat the Patriots, too. When they did, the Jets defense was the superior unit.

 

[Joker]

that has been acknowledged repeatedly in this thread..that unit was decidely different than the current iteration in experience and personnel...that unit held a lead at halftime and melted down inexplicably,mostly blaming Brady for repeatedly trying to hit Moss...that score was 28-14. A few weeks ago the same two teams played and the score was 45-3. Are you seriously trying to imply that this is equal to the Pats loss in the Meadowlands? You're implying something, you always do...what is it?

 

[Deus Irae]

that has been acknowledged repeatedly in this thread..that unit was decidely different than the current iteration in experience and personnel...that unit held a lead at halftime and melted down inexplicably,mostly blaming Brady for repeatedly trying to hit Moss...that score was 28-14. A few weeks ago the same two teams played and the score was 45-3. Are you seriously trying to imply that this is equal to the Pats loss in the Meadowlands? You're implying something, you always do...what is it?

I'm implying nothing. There's no need to.


However, just to touch on the overall nature of the topic:

The weakness of this team's defense is evident. Dynasty's spent a lot of this thread arguing with someone I've got on ignore, so I can't see all the rebuttals, but it's pretty clear that people here are overrating this defense while attacking the guy. Just like last year, coaching is taking a below average defense and getting better results than the talent should be achieving. In fact, last year's defense allowed about 4 ppg fewer than this year's team has allowed to date.

Just as in last year, this year's offense usually has to carry the day. The difference this year is that Brady's generally been up to the task. The hope is that the defense will improve over the remainder of the season, and that Brady will remain up to the task as the stakes get higher.

 

[ausbacker]

that has been acknowledged repeatedly in this thread..that unit was decidely different than the current iteration in experience and personnel...that unit held a lead at halftime and melted down inexplicably,mostly blaming Brady for repeatedly trying to hit Moss...that score was 28-14. A few weeks ago the same two teams played and the score was 45-3. Are you seriously trying to imply that this is equal to the Pats loss in the Meadowlands? You're implying something, you always do...what is it?

Deus Irae has me on ignore because I called him out on a few threads and he didn't like it. Wrote an entire private message to me crying about it attempting to vindicate the need to feed his self importance which was meet with the appropriate response. The plus side of this is I get to say whatever I want about the knob without having to deal with his bull**** replies. You'll get an idea below.

I'm implying nothing. There's no need to.


However, just to touch on the overall nature of the topic:

The weakness of this team's defense is evident. Dynasty's spent a lot of this thread arguing with someone I've got on ignore, so I can't see all the rebuttals, but it's pretty clear that people here are overrating this defense while attacking the guy. Just like last year, coaching is taking a below average defense and getting better results than the talent should be achieving. In fact, last year's defense allowed about 4 ppg fewer than this year's team has allowed to date.

Just as in last year, this year's offense usually has to carry the day. The difference this year is that Brady's generally been up to the task. The hope is that the defense will improve over the remainder of the season, and that Brady will remain up to the task as the stakes get higher.

1. Try reading The Dynasty's opinion on the defense from start to finish.
2. Try reading The Dynasty's opinion on the defense and watch the goal posts move with each rebuttal and argument lost.
3. The 2010/2011 offense and defense are better than the 2009/2010 offense and defense.
4. The 2010/2011 defense with 2 games to be played has 3 less sacks, 5 less pass defense plays, 3 more interceptions, 2 less fumble recoveries, 2 more defensive touchdowns doing this whilst going through an almost complete overhaul.

So 2010 Patriots D has surrendered more yards per game and 4 odd points more than the 2009 D whilst creating more turnovers, scoring more and creating more opportunities for the offense whilst undergoing a massive personnel change. The Dynasty has been hung and quartered because the application of matching criteria is not applied for one defense to another (plus the ignorance of statistical data which he even admitted to not being bothered to search for).

Really average that Patriots D

 

[Ring 6]

What are you saying in the paragraph below?



Seems to me like you are saying that the Jets are better than the Patriots because the Jets have failed in the 4th quarter, while the Patriots have not.

If that's what you found where is the apology?

 

[mb6592]

The weakness of this team's defense is evident….it’s pretty clear that people here are overrating this defense while attacking the guy. Just like last year, coaching is taking a below average defense and getting better results than the talent should be achieving. In fact, last year's defense allowed about 4 ppg fewer than this year's team has allowed to date. Just as in last year, this year's offense usually has to carry the day. The difference this year is that Brady's generally been up to the task. The hope is that the defense will improve over the remainder of the season, and that Brady will remain up to the task as the stakes get higher.

Nothing controversial in what you’re saying. Not sure why Dynasty has allowed himself to be pulled down the rabbit hole by the likes of Andy et al. He probably was too definitive regarding the Pats not being able to continue to rely on turnovers come Jan and chose not to dwell on the fact that injuries have taken their toll (what team doesn’t have injuries?). So what? We needed 42 pages of slamming the guy for that? Here are his first couple of posts:

The one stat that I think needs to be improved on his 3rd down D, going into last night the Pats were last in the league. The Pats did have a solid night last night limiting the Jets to 3-12 on 3rd down. They have been getting bailed out by the turnovers in past games and I just feel like come playoff time its hard to depend on turnovers to consistently keep bailing you out.

It is true, but come playoff time its tough to depend on turnovers to keep bailing you out. I am not saying the defense needs to be a top 5 defense, it just needs to get a little better and not depend on forcing turnovers every week.

3rd downs on defense are equally as important regardless of the opponent or situation. You never want the offense to convert on 3rd down, especially on 3rd and long. This is the time to step up and make a stop and get the D off the field. Allowing teams to covert on 3rd down keeps the D on the field longer and offenses to have longer drives against the Pats. Recently the Pats have been bailed out by forcing an INT. My point is in the playoffs it is very unlikely that the Pats will be able to force an INT and be bailed out by giving up 3rd down conversions.

No...my logic is that the Pats are relying too much on forcing turnovers. Good teams in the playoffs are not going to be turning the ball over and will be making the Pats pay for their poor play on 3rd down if they cannot change this trend.

I see Dynasty's points and agree with most of them - I must be missing something.