TripGate Breaks Wide Open: Cimini of ESPN-NY Alleges It Came From The Top

[shmessy]

........Two other minor points, you mention 'non-eligible personnel' and make mention of my referring to these people as players.
1 - You will see that I refer to the sideline personnel as players and coaches initially and then omit the coaches from my second reference. At no point did I make a reference to active/inactive status. At other points I refer to them collectively as personnel. For consistency I concede that a generic 'personnel' would have been more clear, but in the context of my text I think it was obvious that I was referring to any team member on the sideline, including active/inactive players, coaches, doctors, interns, trainers etc. That was weak to include it in the discussion and did not serve a point.
2 - What are 'non-eligible personnel'? I have never heard this term. Eligible for what? They are on the sideline, what do they need to eligible for? What makes that area prohibited? They were off the white line. There are no separate zones or layers of eligibility beyond that white line that I know of. But I sincerely concede I may not know that. This is a genuine question. If I am wrong and the area was prohibited, then the issue is even more cut and dry. They should not stand there and they were standing there. That's a problem regardless of a trip. But as far as I know there is no such rule.

It's been referenced many, many times in the past few days. The diagram has been posted alot, but here's just one example from bostonsportsmedia.com

You need to see the diagram and note where it says "Coaches and situation substitution players only".

It's VERY clear, Section103, please let us know what is not clear about it:

http://www.bostonsportsmedia.com/2010/12/who-ordered-the-jets-sideline-wall

 

[patchick]

What are 'non-eligible personnel'? I have never heard this term. Eligible for what? They are on the sideline, what do they need to eligible for? What makes that area prohibited? They were off the white line. There are no separate zones or layers of eligibility beyond that white line that I know of. But I sincerely concede I may not know that. This is a genuine question. If I am wrong and the area was prohibited, then the issue is even more cut and dry. They should not stand there and they were standing there. That's a problem regardless of a trip. But as far as I know there is no such rule.

I think this is where your disconnect from the other posters comes in. There are indeed different types of personnel and different areas they're allowed to be in, and the Jets' wall was a clear violation of that rule.

Go back to this earlier post in the thread for an explanation:
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...pn-ny-alleges-came-top-page2.html#post2394679

 

[Ochmed Jones]

You do realize this is the Jets, and the Commish is a former Jet employee. Nothing will happen to the Jets. The Commish's office is probably studying film to see if the Pats did it, so they can fine us and take away Oakland's pick that we own. Hey, if the Jet's Special Team's coach said we did it, it must be true right ? The NFL will always try to find a way to f*ck the Pats any way they can. First the Broncos try to deflect blame on the Pats for their video issues, and now this. F*ck the Jets and F*ck the NFL.

I agree, Roger "I bleed Green and White and not just because I have the Clap" Godell is a super Jets homer all the way and there is no way he going to get off his hands and knees while spit shining Woody's shoes to punish anyone in the Jets organization.

For Roger "I bleed green and white and just because I have the clap" Goddell there are just not enough hours in the day to be Woody's errand boy, a lousy commisioner and spy on whatever BB and the Pats are up to. Bottom line - he's a sad little Jets fan!

 

[LiveShot]

Rexxy Ryan had to know and if he doesn't it proves he's not head coach material. The problem is the gunners who purposefully run downfield out of bounds. If a player intentionally runs off the field of play he should be inelligible to make any contact with a runner or blocker.

 

[fair catch fryar]

You do realize this is the Jets, and the Commish is a former Jet employee. Nothing will happen to the Jets. The Commish's office is probably studying film to see if the Pats did it, so they can fine us and take away Oakland's pick that we own. Hey, if the Jet's Special Team's coach said we did it, it must be true right ? The NFL will always try to find a way to f*ck the Pats any way they can. First the Broncos try to deflect blame on the Pats for their video issues, and now this. F*ck the Jets and F*ck the NFL.

Unfortunately, I know.

 

[RHbT76]

I agree, Roger "I bleed Green and White and not just because I have the Clap" Godell is a super Jets homer all the way and there is no way he going to get off his hands and knees while spit shining Woody's shoes to punish anyone in the Jets organization.

For Roger "I bleed green and white and just because I have the clap" Goddell there are just not enough hours in the day to be Woody's errand boy, a lousy commisioner and spy on whatever BB and the Pats are up to. Bottom line - he's a sad little Jets fan!

That's were the media comes in. If this story keeps going then Goodell has to punish someone. The Jets already tried to pin it a nobody and its still going, and now people are pointing fingers at Westhoff and Ryan so someone high up in the Jets will have to take responsibility just to make it go away, its just how the world works.

People should be doing everything they can to spread this around! Email this story and similar ones to any friends/coworker who watch football, post it one social networking sites. Leave comments on all the articles about how Westhoff and Ryan are using Alosi to cover up their involvement and so on.

The more attention these articles get -> the more the hacks keep writing them -> the more desperate Goodell gets to make the story go away.

 

[Haley]

This is where people need to focus. All the other stuff is just a distraction. High-ups in the Jets administration are lying through their teeth. People always lie for a reason. That reason is what needs to be uncovered. I see only 2 viable answers (please add more if you have them):

1) The Jets GM, coach and staff are idiots. Lying to cover up a petty offense (or no offense at all). They would rather risk the credibility of the whole organization than admit involvement in a situation that would have gone away quickly and resulted in a hand-slap at worst.

2) The Jets coaching staff directed the "wall" to take down Carroll. He had a pick earlier in the game and is the Fins kickoff returner. The team was struggling and could have used a big return on that play (having a gunner go down would help that) and eliminating the Fins nickel/dime back would help Sanchez get on track.

I see no other reasonable answers. I would vote for #1 but the specter (pun intended) of #2 will haunt the Jets until they come clean.

This post makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

I think this is where your disconnect from the other posters comes in. There are indeed different types of personnel and different areas they're allowed to be in, and the Jets' wall was a clear violation of that rule.

True enough. But this may be the most widely violated rule in sports. Or one of them. I go to 8 to 10 games a year and sit behind the bench. The basic view of the teams seems to be that anyone can be anwhere, so long as it's inside the 32 yard lines (although coaches don't care as much about even this) and behind the big white 6-foot border. All game long, you'll see people other than coaches and situation subs in the second 6-foot restricted area. Trainers, players looking at photos with coaches, injured players trying to get a good view, even owners. The memo the league is supposedly considering will, perhaps, add some clarity and clean this up.

Now, don't get me wrong, in this and other threads you've convinced me that the use of the restricted personnel to make the human wall makes the wall somewhat more pernicious than a wall of non-restricted personnel. But if you take the "human wall" element out of it, the second six-foot border is pretty much like the coaches boxes in baseball or the batters box.

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

You want me on that wall... You need me on that wall

Sorry if it's been done... Posting on the phone at lunch

Here is the longer version.....

Secret Transcript between Rex Ryan and Mike Tannenbaum and Woody Johnson.

MT: Rex, did you order the Green Wall?
WJ: You *don't* have to answer that question!
RR: I'll answer the question!
RR: You want answers?
MT: I think I'm entitled.
RR: *You want answers?*
MT: *I want the truth!*
RR: *You can't handle the truth!*
[pauses]
RR: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men in green sweat pants. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Westhoff? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Nolan Carroll, and you curse the field goal kicker. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Carroll's injury, while tragic, probably saved yards. And my fat ass, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, wins games. And there is no ****ing way we can win a game with Sanchez as the QB without cheating. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at in the PSL luxury box, you want me to order the green wall, you need me to order the green wall. We use words like zerbra, 16, left. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the cheating I do, and then questions the manner in which I cheat. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you put on some green sweat pants and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
MT: Did you order the Green Wall?
RR: I did the job I...
MT: *Did you order the Green Wall?*
RR: *You're Goddamn right I did!*

 

[Section103]

I think this is where your disconnect from the other posters comes in. There are indeed different types of personnel and different areas they're allowed to be in, and the Jets' wall was a clear violation of that rule.

Go back to this earlier post in the thread for an explanation:
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...pn-ny-alleges-came-top-page2.html#post2394679

Well I would say so... wow... Admittedly I did not read the entire thread and until now, I have not seen this detail in any of my typical sports reading in the AM. No time to read 7 pages of banter but through a brief skim I had missed this important point. That certainly makes the issue more sordid and, if anything, you can take the last, previously hypothetical point, of my original post and apply that now. I would say this is more egregious than a videotape.

Thanks guys, sorry for wasting anyone's time.

 

[shmessy]

Well I would say so... wow... Admittedly I did not read the entire thread and until now, I have not seen this detail in any of my typical sports reading in the AM. No time to read 7 pages of banter but through a brief skim I had missed this important point. That certainly makes the issue more sordid and, if anything, you can take the last, previously hypothetical point, of my original post and apply that now. I would say this is more egregious than a videotape.

Thanks guys, sorry for wasting anyone's time.

No problem, at least we got you to the goal line!

 

[BradyManny]

I just took the Jets-Pats game off my DVR a couple of days ago. I'd be curious to see if either team was engaging in this practice, while I remain confused why it is illegal. If a team wants to line up their plays within an area which is deemed their sideline, I don't see why that is a problem.

The only thing that crossed the line - literally & figuratively - here was extending the knee and tripping the gunner.

 

[Metaphors]

Now, don't get me wrong, in this and other threads you've convinced me that the use of the restricted personnel to make the human wall makes the wall somewhat more pernicious than a wall of non-restricted personnel. But if you take the "human wall" element out of it, the second six-foot border is pretty much like the coaches boxes in baseball or the batters box.

That is the silly part of all of this. I think just about everyone without an ax to grind agrees with what you are saying. It is a technical violation but nobody cares as long as it doesn't affect the game.

But to extend your analogy, have Shaquille O'Neal, Jermaine O'Neal, Delonte West, Luke Harangody, Avery Bradley and Bryan Doo (look it up) stand up side by side in the coaches box during a game. Would you believe Doc Rivers if he said he didn't notice them and never asked WTF they were doing?

 

[Section103]

I just took the Jets-Pats game off my DVR a couple of days ago. I'd be curious to see if either team was engaging in this practice, while I remain confused why it is illegal. If a team wants to line up their plays within an area which is deemed their sideline, I don't see why that is a problem.

The only thing that crossed the line - literally & figuratively - here was extending the knee and tripping the gunner.

Until about 10-15min I thought the same thing until Shmessy came to the rescue. Check this out: Boston Sports Media WatchWho Ordered The Jets "Sideline Wall?" Boston Sports Media Watch

The wall, although not a huge deal really, is in and of itself illegal, even without the trip. It allows them to gain an advantage in that particular game and affect the game play. A big gain? No. But neither is videotaping coaching signals for use at a later date... maybe.

 

[shmessy]

Until about 10-15min I thought the same thing until Shmessy came to the rescue. Check this out: Boston Sports Media WatchWho Ordered The Jets "Sideline Wall?" Boston Sports Media Watch

The wall, although not a huge deal really, is in and of itself illegal, even without the trip. It allows them to gain an advantage in that particular game and affect the game play. A big gain? No. But neither is videotaping coaching signals for use at a later date... maybe.

I'd go even further and state that this is a BIGGER violation than the Patriots videotaping from the wrong location.

1) THIS time, there is a clear map/diagram already in place from the league regarding placement of specific personnel regarding the subject at hand.

2) I don't recall the New England Patriots ever lying to the league when asked about the videotaping.

 

[mudslinger]

Here is the longer version.....

Secret Transcript between Rex Ryan and Mike Tannenbaum and Woody Johnson.

MT: Rex, did you order the Green Wall?
WJ: You *don't* have to answer that question!
RR: I'll answer the question!
RR: You want answers?
MT: I think I'm entitled.
RR: *You want answers?*
MT: *I want the truth!*
RR: *You can't handle the truth!*
[pauses]
RR: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men in green sweat pants. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Westhoff? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Nolan Carroll, and you curse the field goal kicker. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Carroll's injury, while tragic, probably saved yards. And my fat ass, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, wins games. And there is no ****ing way we can win a game with Sanchez as the QB without cheating. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at in the PSL luxury box, you want me to order the green wall, you need me to order the green wall. We use words like zerbra, 16, left. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the cheating I do, and then questions the manner in which I cheat. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you put on some green sweat pants and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
MT: Did you order the Green Wall?
RR: I did the job I...
MT: *Did you order the Green Wall?*
RR: *You're Goddamn right I did!*

Hilarious.
I"m more ticked that Jets dragged Patriots name into this crap.

 

[JMarr]

Hilarious.
I"m more ticked that Jets dragged Patriots name into this crap.

I agree. Westhoff's (or whoever's) saying that the Pats need to be investigated as well is where this whole thing really veers off into surreal, Orwellian territory; the ultimate diversion/red herring/whatever you want to call it, as well as the ultimate "FU " towards the Pats. Truly unbelievable.

Count me as one who believes nothing ever comes of this (they will make it more than worth Alosi's while to keep quiet and take the fall). IMO if it goes any further, it will be because of how much noise Carroll and/or the Dolphins ultimately decide to make. (Doesn't look like it'll be much)

The thing that most sucks is that it looks like BB and the Pats helped Goodell with his "league image" problem by falling on the sword in 2007. Fast forward to 2010 and the Jets are trying to do the opposite, even stooping so low as specifically naming the Pats as the team to look at [again] when it comes to "cheating." :gossip:

 

[Kontradiction]

My only point was to provide another example of how lying to legimitate authority when scrutinized is often worse than the initial offense.

Here, the initial offense by the Jets was trivial -- putting the wrong personnel in an area they weren't permitted to be in.

Then, it broke open because of the independent misdeed of one of those people. Not the Jets fault.

Then the Jets tried to cover it up. No, there isn't direct evidence of that because so far the NFL investigation has been cursory. But any rational thinking person can see Rex Ryan watching the whole incident from the sideline. His denial of all knowledge lacks credibility to any reasonable person.

The coverup is why this is a big deal. I am thinking $250k and a third round pick big.

The tripping is absolutely a big deal. Nolan Carroll is the Dolphins gunner. He was taken out of bounds then taken out of the play by a Jets coach on the sidelines in a direct attempt to improve field position. Especially in a game like the one the Jets were in with the Dolphins (field position defensive game), that is a pretty high level of cheating. As for the rest of your post, I can confront your points in my response to shmessy.

Kontra, by no means am I saying that the penalty should be handed down right away without an investigation. Further I have no idea how much any possible penalty should be. I am not the poster who is throwing numbers around here.

I DO believe that the league has to jump in and investigate - - something they publicly said they would not do at the outset because the Jets told them it was all contained at the Alosi level.

The investigation as to why Ryan lied about his knowledge of the incident has to take place first and in a fair manner.

First off, I can see like everyone else that Ryan is clearly looking at the play that's happening. I *think* that he's lying. But how would you go about proving that if you're the NFL? The question that was asked was whether or not Ryan saw the trip take place. In this case, the NFL can prove that he was looking at the gunner and in the area that the trip happened, but they can't actually prove that he saw the trip. His response could be something along the lines of, "I was watching the activity of the gunner in the area, but I didn't see Alosi trip him. Next thing I knew, he was on the ground in front of me. I thought he tripped over his own feet".

He can also go another couple of directions in his response/explanation to the NFL. Believe me, I'm an expert liar. This is why I believe that the investigation into the tripping and whether or not the Jets ordered it at a higher level should come first. The NFL is going to have a hell of a time proving that Ryan was actually lying about what he saw if they conduct that investigation first and foremost. Conduct the investigation about just how high up the trip was ordered from (like I said, Alosi should be an eager participant to help the NFL by now). Find that out, and if you have it going higher than Ryan, you have Ryan caught in the lie and can also address that.

 

[DaBruinz]

Honestly, I'm over it. The forming of the line doesn't bother me, that gunner wasn't supposed to be out of bounds.

The Gunner didn't go out of bounds intentionally. He was shoved out of bounds by the Jets Defenders. And shoved far enough out that he had no choice but to run where he did..

The knee is bothersome, but I doubt that came from the top down. Just a stupid move he probably wished he could take back.

I think that Rex told them to interfere in whatever way possible. And that is what Alosi did.

We're bigger than this, guys. We're just starting to sound like all the other haters. I even had a spurt earlier. Really not worth the energy. Let's just watch the Jets implode from their teams problems. Much more entertaining, imo.

No. We're not starting to sound like haters. Most people are watching the Jets implode. However, when our team is attacked by BS, we have the right to shoot it down. And that is what Westhoff did. He bold-faced lied.

 

[DaBruinz]

Ok, but it was the player who was breaking rules by running out of bounds. The dudes were being dinks for standing that close to the line, but they weren't breaking any rules, as far as I can tell. Sal broke a rule (I assume) by kneeing the guy and he's been SEVERELY punished. I think it's over.

You are 100% wrong. Those players (who were not dressed) and the S&C Coach (who is considered a bench coach) are not allowed in that 6' area according to league rules. The onlypeople allowed in that area are ones who are getting ready to sub and coaches.