Does Wilfork at DE change your thinking?

[MaineMan]

Just took my first closer look at JJ Watt after picking up on his (pretty decent) stats. The guy is so well-proportioned (IOW, not fat) at 6'6"/292 that he looks like a normal human being who's simply in good shape. Until, of course, you see him pictured standing next to an actual normal human being.

How's the tape on this guy look? As athletic in motion as he looks standing still? Good moves?

EDIT: Right. The original question. No, Wilfork at DE doesn't really alter my perception that we need at least one more solid, young 3-4 DE. Deaderick may (or may not) develop into a fine one. Brace may become a decent swing DE/NT, but I'm not at all confident that either Warren will be around much longer, and who knows about Love or Weston I'm not, of course, even close the saying that Watt (or anyone else) is THE guy, but I still think we need a guy who can become THE guy.

 

[Off The Grid]

Just took my first closer look at JJ Watt after picking up on his (pretty decent) stats. The guy is so well-proportioned (IOW, not fat) at 6'6"/292 that he looks like a normal human being who's simply in good shape. Until, of course, you see him pictured standing next to an actual normal human being.

How's the tape on this guy look? As athletic in motion as he looks standing still? Good moves?

EDIT: Right. The original question. No, Wilfork at DE doesn't really alter my perception that we need at least one more solid, young 3-4 DE. Deaderick may (or may not) develop into a fine one. Brace may become a decent swing DE/NT, but I'm not at all confident that either Warren will be around much longer, and who knows about Love or Weston I'm not, of course, even close to saying that Watt (or anyone else) is THE guy, but I still think we need a guy who can become THE guy.

Yes!! Watt looks dynamic on the field.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I've seen a few posters say that 3-4 DE is the team's #1 draft need. After 2 games of watching the Patriots stifle the run with a Wilfork-G. Warren-Deaderick line, it seems worth asking...

Could it be that the team is stacked with Wilfork, T. Warren, Deaderick & Wright at DE, but in need of a nose tackle?

Let's give this more time. Two games is a nice baptism under fire.

 

[D-Money]

Looking at the giants ans cowboys with their d-line maded me wonder how unathletic our d-line can be at times.I hope we get an athletic 3-4 DE with that first pick.

 

[mgteich]

I still want a DE in the first round. That's where the value is at DL.

I'm not sure which Warren will be on the team in 2011; I suspect that it will be Gerard.

 

[patsfaninpa]

I still want a DE in the first round. That's where the value is at DL.

I'm not sure which Warren will be on the team in 2011; I suspect that it will be Gerard.

Is Ty going to be working on his MBA?

 

[captain stone]

The Patriots may be ready to move on from Warren next year. He seems to be on the downward trend. The draft seems to be stacked at 3-4 DEs, I expect (and hope) that they focus on the trenches. A single pass rushing OLB is not going to solve the lack of pressure, the entire front seven must improve.

I remember Jimmy Johnson describing how to build a team, his approach was "Be domninant on the offensive and defensive lines and then get a franchise QB". It is easy to remember Aikman, Smith, Irvin, etc. but those Cowboys teams had one of the best offensive lines in history and a great defensive line.

3-4 DE candidates
Cameron Heyward, DE, Ohio State, 6-5 285
Adrian Clayborn, DE, Iowa, 6-3 286 <-- a little smallish (funny 286 pounds is small)
Allen Bailey, DE, Miami (Fla.) 6-4 288
Cameron Jordan, DE , California 6-4 285
Christian Ballard, DE, Iowa 6-4 298

Juniors
J.J. Watt, DE, Wisconsin, 6-6 290
Marcell Dareus, DT, Alabama, 6-3 309
Nick Fairley, DT, Auburn, 6-4 298
Jared Crick, DT, Nebraska , 6-6 285

I just saw Reiss' latest blog entry, in which he provided a link to a McShay piece:
McShay eyes 2 defenders for Pats - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

I don't have Insider, so I didn't read the story, but I'm wondering if Jordan's status has risen
over the past 2 weeks, and if he's still a viability as a 4-3 DT to 3-4 DE conversion.

 

[Off The Grid]

I just saw Reiss' latest blog entry, in which he provided a link to a McShay piece:
McShay eyes 2 defenders for Pats - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

I don't have Insider, so I didn't read the story, but I'm wondering if Jordan's status has risen over the past 2 weeks, and if he's still a viability as a 4-3 DT to 3-4 DE conversion.

Good eye!!

I want Nick Fairley, by God...But if he isn't available, Cam Jordan may very well be MY next choice....except, maybe, JJ Watt.

 

[mgteich]

What we are all hoping for is a player who was getting physically worse for a couple of years will improve after surgery and after a year away from the game.

I don't think there is much question that many suspected that Warren might be one that Belichick dumps in 2011, and that was before the injury. His performance seemed to decline each year. Of course, this was due to his playing injured.

Yes, it is possible that Warren will be better after a year away, or maybe he won't.

Obviously, a rejuvenated Ty Warren and an improving Deaderick will lessen the NEED for a top DE. However, this is still an opportunity to upgrade at a position where value is often available in the mid first round.
=========================

The fact that we're playing Wilfork at DE only shows that we need a DE MORE rather than less. We have taken one of the best NT's in the nfl and are playing him at DE where the need is so, so great.

Is Ty going to be working on his MBA?

 

[rookBoston]

Put me down as a guy who thinks we need to draft more NTs onto the roster.

BB's defense does not emphasize speed rush. It tries to collapse the pocket while controlling the gaps. It's about control and sheer power. Big bodies, big thighs, long arms. Pats DL are not going to be spinning and shooting gaps. They are going to push their OG straight back into the QB, chuck him aside and land on the football. That's BB's idea of defensive line play.

I've posted before, I think if BB could run a defensive front with 3 NTs, he would. It's just that it's hard to find that many big bodies with athleticism. The fact that Brace and Warren and Wilfork are all rotating at DE is not a mistake. It's not a sign that we're weak at DE that we're using Wilfork at DE. It's exactly the kind of matchup that BB is shooting for.

If you want a speed rushing defensive front, unfortunately not going to happen under this regime. Even Seymour was trained to manhandle his blocker, not squeeze or slip past him.

Slow + fat = power. Athleticism will have to come at OLB for us, not DE.

 

[Off The Grid]

Put me down as a guy who thinks we need to draft more NTs onto the roster.

BB's defense does not emphasize speed rush. It tries to collapse the pocket while controlling the gaps. It's about control and sheer power. Big bodies, big thighs, long arms. Pats DL are not going to be spinning and shooting gaps. They are going to push their OG straight back into the QB, chuck him aside and land on the football. That's BB's idea of defensive line play.

I've posted before, I think if BB could run a defensive front with 3 NTs, he would. It's just that it's hard to find that many big bodies with athleticism. The fact that Brace and Warren and Wilfork are all rotating at DE is not a mistake. It's not a sign that we're weak at DE that we're using Wilfork at DE. It's exactly the kind of matchup that BB is shooting for.

If you want a speed rushing defensive front, unfortunately not going to happen under this regime. Even Seymour was trained to manhandle his blocker, not squeeze or slip past him.

Slow + fat = power. Athleticism will have to come at OLB for us, not DE.

These are very intriguing points, so I'm particularly glad you revisited them.

I'll shamelessly pig pile onto your point by reprising one'f my own early statements, as well: For my money, Nose Tackle is ~ except on a team that happens to include General Tom Brady, who is a once in a generation QuarterBack ~ THE most critical position on the ENTIRE roster, and we should make it a policy to always have at least TWO Starting Caliber Nose Tackles on the roster.

I believe that, by the end of the year, we'll be able to say that we have that, with Ron Brace being the second...But I wouldn't mind scooping up a couple of High Hope ~ Low Risk 7th Round ~ Free Agent types, either, like Ibrahim Abdulai, Harold Ayodele or Alemeda TaAmu.

And you won't find me crying if we spend an earlier pick on a Phil Taylor or ~ preferably ~ Kenrick Ellis.

Most fans seem oblivious to what IMMENSE things can be accomplished with enough...IMMENSE things...lining up at the Line of Scrimmage.

~ Provided they're athletic enough, of course.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

These are very intriguing points, so I'm particularly glad you revisited them.

I'll shamelessly pig pile onto your point by reprising one'f my own early statements, as well: For my money, Nose Tackle is ~ except on a team that happens to include General Tom Brady, who is a once in a generation QuarterBack ~ THE most critical position on the ENTIRE roster, and we should make it a policy to always have at least TWO Starting Caliber Nose Tackles on the roster.

I believe that, by the end of the year, we'll be able to say that we have that, with Ron Brace being the second...But I wouldn't mind scooping up a couple of High Hope ~ Low Risk 7th Round ~ Free Agent types, either, like Ibrahim Abdulai, Harold Ayodele or Alemeda TaAmu.

And you won't find me crying if we spend an earlier pick on a Phil Taylor or ~ preferably ~ Kenrick Ellis.

Most fans seem oblivious to what IMMENSE things can be accomplished with enough...IMMENSE things...lining up at the Line of Scrimmage.

~ Provided they're athletic enough, of course.

I like Kendrick Ellis, but at this point can anyone say he is or projects to be a better player than Love? No, so I am inclined to keep Love and pass on Ellis.

 

[captain stone]

Put me down as a guy who thinks we need to draft more NTs onto the roster.

BB's defense does not emphasize speed rush. It tries to collapse the pocket while controlling the gaps. It's about control and sheer power. Big bodies, big thighs, long arms. Pats DL are not going to be spinning and shooting gaps. They are going to push their OG straight back into the QB, chuck him aside and land on the football. That's BB's idea of defensive line play.

I've posted before, I think if BB could run a defensive front with 3 NTs, he would. It's just that it's hard to find that many big bodies with athleticism. The fact that Brace and Warren and Wilfork are all rotating at DE is not a mistake. It's not a sign that we're weak at DE that we're using Wilfork at DE. It's exactly the kind of matchup that BB is shooting for.

If you want a speed rushing defensive front, unfortunately not going to happen under this regime. Even Seymour was trained to manhandle his blocker, not squeeze or slip past him.

Slow + fat = power. Athleticism will have to come at OLB for us, not DE.

Slow + Fat does not nec. = Power,
just as Athleticism does not nec. = Lack of Power.

Bobby Hamilton, Richard Seymour, Jarvis Green & a young + healthy Ty Warren
would never be mistaken for Slow + Fat.

Would you really prefer a DL consisting of 3 Gerard Warrens or 3 Ron Braces, or even 3 Vince Wilforks?
I wouldn't, though having a DL of 3 Haloti Ngatas is an entirely different question.
Wilfork can only dream of being as athletic as Ngata, the best 3-4 Dlineman in football.

 

[MaineMan]

The more I think about it, and after reading the comments, the more I'm inclined to agree that playing Wilfork at DE underscores the need for an RDE who commands significant attention all on his own. It's always seemed to me that Gerard Warren was a temp, filling a spot at DE until a young guy already on the roster developed into a more viable player, or until we acquired that next great DE. But, as valiant as Warren's effort may have been, that BB has felt the tactical need to play Wilfork at RDE is an indication that the results have not been as hoped. Wilfork is at his best taking on double-teams in the middle, IMO. He needs a guy to his right who has the ability to use that as more or less a free pass to disrupting the backfield. And we don't have a guy like that (it certainly isn't Gerard Warren).

So, I also disagree with the notion that BB's preference is for all beef and low-gear power up front. I think he actually wants disruption in the backfield from the front three by any and all means available. A big, athletic, commanding presence with moves as well as power on the RDE helps to free up another rusher from the outside or the inside. THAT, probably more than their own "elite rushing skills", is what allows those OLBs and ILBs (and the LDE) to get home.

 

[Kontradiction]

Good eye!!

I want Nick Fairley, by God...But if he isn't available, Cam Jordan may very well be MY next choice....except, maybe, JJ Watt.

Fairley is in beast mode today vs. Georgia. I'll take him. 6'5" 300+ lbs. with a good motor and loves to hit. Stout against the run and a presence against the pass. Yessir.

 

[Off The Grid]

I want Nick Fairley, by God...But if he isn't available, Cam Jordan may very well be MY next choice....except, maybe, JJ Watt.

Fairley is in beast mode today vs. Georgia. I'll take him. 6'5" 300+ lbs. with a good motor and loves to hit. Stout against the run and a presence against the pass. Yessir.

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.