OT: LeBron James

[Kontradiction]

I really haven't followed b-ball in a long time --- is it moving to a hard cap?
and if it did, wouldn't current deals be grandfathered in somehow?

pretty much every team in the league is over the cap, except maybe a couple.

didn't pierce, garnett, and allen make 50m+ last year?

You're supposed to ignore the fact that the Celtics were in pretty much the same spot a couple of years back that the Heat are in now.

Anyway, looks like Mike Miller to Miami is pretty much a done deal. He should get a lot of open looks along with Chalmers at the three point line. That's a really good thing for Miami. Also, rumors are floating around down here on sports talk 560 about Zydrunas Ilgauskas garnering some interest from Riley and company.

 

[jmt57]

Yer gonna eat that tomorrow night. You wanna climb to the TOP of the success mountain, you go to NEW YAWK frickin' CITY, 'cause that's where the pinnacle is. And coming from someone who ran an indie record label there for 17 years, I know a thing or two about what that means. It's not like I coulda reached those sociological heights tryin' that where YOU live.
The Lebron scale is tipping towards Gotham with each passing hour and I'm loving every minute of it. I mean, when you REALLY break it down to its essence, playing ANYWHERE outside of New York is always gonna be a "what if I was able to do all this good stuff in New York? Oh man, that woulda been even better."

There ain't no place that touches New York City as far as personal accolade experiences go. And that's coming from someone who's had a LOT of them.

.... you just wait 'till tomorrow night. You just effing wait. You're gonna be reminded of what you're NOT once again. Yeah, a NON New Yorker. As if you count for anything. lol. You're just a lesser version of who you COULD be to all of us looking down from the summit of the place they call Capitol Of Earth.

Now Lebron is gonna join our ranks. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Yeah, afraid of your inferiority complex rearing it's head once again when Lebron tells yer ass how much it rules here.

And that's from a Pats fan since 1979 who's originally from Connecticut (New England, anybody?).

 

[Kontradiction]

First of all, I'd be stoked if the Celtics had this younger "Big Three" as much as I appreciate Banner 17 and the potential for Banner 18.

For those who think that with all that salary tied up in James, Wade and Bosh prevents them from gaining the other role players that they'll need, they need look no further than the Celtics, as you note.

That being said, you've got to factor in Ainge's talent in finding and signing those role players (helped by recruiting by our own Big Three) as well as a degree of luck (drafting Rondo was a bit of both) and the desire of some quality role players to come to Boston for less than full market value.

Whether the Heat can duplicate the Celts' championship comes down to a number of questions:

1. GM - will Pat Riley have the ability and luck needed to sign the additional role players needed to win a championship? That remains to be seen. He's had some hits and misses in player selection - but then again who hasn't? Much here depends on whether the right role players will buy into the need to accept below market value to make more in a future contract as well.

2. Coach - can Pat Riley manage the huge egos he's now dealing with? The short answer is a clear "Yes" - he's done so in the past but much depends on the players themselves. (See #3)

3. The Players - Can the new Big Three coexist, share the ball and excel? I'd say "yes" but it will be interesting to see how they do when they hit a rough patch - losing some games, as they certainly will - and seeing if the pressure and blame game undermines their relationship.

Doc Rivers did a tremendous job getting everyone on the same page with his "Ubuntu" schtick - and the players deserve credit for pulling together as well. That's not easy to replicate - the fact that the Celts Big Three was older was actually a big PLUS for the Celtics as they had spent 10 plus years in the league and knew the clock was ticking.

The Younger Big Three in Miami will have to be considerably more mature than their ages or egos suggest they can be if they want this to work.

4. Health - Players get injured. Dominating the regular season means nothing if one isn't healthy and playing well in the playoffs. Younger players are not immune to injury and a Big Two, without enough role players around (particularly a rough rebounder in the middle), will not be enough to win a Championship.

5. Pressure - There's a ton of attention and pressure on Miami and all these player now (I know I'll be watching) and any faltering, anything short of sheer dominance, anything short of a championship will be looked at as failure. Things are set up nicely for a Banner - but they are set up just as nicely for immense disappointment amid immense pressure.

So there's still a lot of factors at play here that will keep it interesting for the Heat and for the rest of the NBA, which still has many teams that can dethrone a Heat team that's yet to even have one practice.

But overall, congrats to KontradictioN and all Heat fans for this major coup of team assembly. I'd be pretty stoked if I were you.

Good break down. I actually feel like I did prior to the 2007 season with the Pats. Immense talent, immense expectations, and immense pressure. Like I said, they're already bringing in Mike Miller and supposedly there are quite a few guys that want to come aboard to play with this team. Once the roster is filled out, anything less than a championship will be a disappointment. Two more things: Erik Spoelstra will be the Heat coach next year. Not Pat Riley. And the second thing is congratulations to the REAL Heat fans. Those fans that had the old school Tim Hardaway, Dan Majerle, and Zo jerseys back in the day. Not the new Heat fans who just jumped off the Magic's bandwagon last night and guys like that idiot in the Miami bar with the Cleveland jersey on jumping up and down like an idiot.

 

[scout]

You're comparing apples and oranges...

Depending on your age, imagine a 6' 4" Doug Flutie - having grown up in Natick, demonstrated himself as a football phenom and gone on to be the uber star star of hometown Boston College

... then the Patriots, having never won a Lombardi, draft him, giving the region huge hopes for a strong team to root for at a time when the owner of the fabled Boston Red Sox franchise had secretly moved the organization out of town in a midnight run of moving trucks

The region is hurting both in the economy and in general low sports morale yet our local "Super Doug Flutie" gives real hope of sheer sports dominance for years to come, even saying that his one main goal is to bring a championship to the area that he loves and grew up in!

Then, he reaches free agency... he teases the region by flirting with other teams but keeps things cute and coy purposefully keeping his intentions a secret and then securing an egotistical nationally televised over-hyped sports special to announce....

... that he's stabbing his hometown and hometown fans who have supported and cheered for him since he was a little boy, right in the middle of the heart on national TV.

People are hurt and angry and Kraft knows it - and vows to do what our anti-Doug Flutie did - and bring a Championship to a region that he believes deserves it now more than ever before - using that anger and bold prediction to buck up morale and more importantly ticket sales.

The classy but meek response of saying "oh well, we tried and we wish him luck" might have been welcome by some who will always love LeBron even though he never fufilled his pledge to bring a championship, but I think the meek approach had more risks than the angry response.

If Flute gave 7 years of his career to win a championship and decided to move on, I'm sure I would be disapointed, but would never hold the contempt that the Cleveland owner is displaying.

 

[scout]

Comparing it to Brady doesn't make a lot of sense.

For one, we know Brady wants to be here and would sign an extension - and we know Kraft wants him back, and would like to work something out.

More importantly, Brady has won us 3 championships. If he were to leave, the fans would probably find ample blame for both him and management, but it would probably be as amicable a parting as possible. Its hard to begrudge a player who rescued your franchise.

Lebron showed no real interest in staying in Cleveland, other than family ties to the area, which has nothing to do with the fans.

Furthermore, he hasn't won anything, he hasn't rescued the team from anything, and he hasn't made the sports in that area any better. In fact, he is leaving the team in about as awful a situation as one can.

Lastly, he turned the whole thing into a charade, and went on national TV to break the entire Ohio area's collective hearts. That's unprecedented and likely will never be topped.

The guy is a complete d-bag. There really is no way around it.

Glad your not showing any bias. The Brady example was "if" the situation were the same, thus, all your points are moot.
LeBron showed no interest in staying in Cleveland? Sounds like conjecture on your part and differs from all accounts in the media since the start of this (about a year ago).
He hasn't won anything................that is the reason he is leaving. An athlete gives 7 years of his career to a franchise and becomes a free agent, has no obligation to resign with them.
Funny thing is, whenever fans talk about the millions of dollars athletes make, and then compare it to their own salary and speak of the selfishness of the athlete. Here's a situation, where the athlete takes less money in order to try to win a championship (the ultimate worth of an athlete) and is called a coward. So the average Joe, reaches the end of his contract with his company, has an offer to improve himself (not monetarily) and doesn't accept.......because of............loyalty. Ask Keven Garnett how that works.

 

[eom]

Yer gonna eat that tomorrow night. You wanna climb to the TOP of the success mountain, you go to NEW YAWK frickin' CITY, 'cause that's where the pinnacle is. And coming from someone who ran an indie record label there for 17 years, I know a thing or two about what that means. It's not like I coulda reached those sociological heights tryin' that where YOU live.
The Lebron scale is tipping towards Gotham with each passing hour and I'm loving every minute of it. I mean, when you REALLY break it down to its essence, playing ANYWHERE outside of New York is always gonna be a "what if I was able to do all this good stuff in New York? Oh man, that woulda been even better."

There ain't no place that touches New York City as far as personal accolade experiences go. And that's coming from someone who's had a LOT of them.

.... you just wait 'till tomorrow night. You just effing wait. You're gonna be reminded of what you're NOT once again. Yeah, a NON New Yorker. As if you count for anything. lol. You're just a lesser version of who you COULD be to all of us looking down from the summit of the place they call Capitol Of Earth.

Now Lebron is gonna join our ranks. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Yeah, afraid of your inferiority complex rearing it's head once again when Lebron tells yer ass how much it rules here.

And that's from a Pats fan since 1979 who's originally from Connecticut (New England, anybody?).

lol I guess that's one thing cavs fans can still be thankful for --- they aren't knicks fans.

 

[BradyManny]

Mike Miller is a great fit for Miami.

Not the move I wanted to see them make.

Wade, Bosh and Lebron must really be taking paycuts if they can afford Miller and still fill out a roster. Its not like they have an MLE to work with.

 

[BradyManny]

Glad your not showing any bias. The Brady example was "if" the situation were the same, thus, all your points are moot.
LeBron showed no interest in staying in Cleveland? Sounds like conjecture on your part and differs from all accounts in the media since the start of this (about a year ago).
He hasn't won anything................that is the reason he is leaving. An athlete gives 7 years of his career to a franchise and becomes a free agent, has no obligation to resign with them.
Funny thing is, whenever fans talk about the millions of dollars athletes make, and then compare it to their own salary and speak of the selfishness of the athlete. Here's a situation, where the athlete takes less money in order to try to win a championship (the ultimate worth of an athlete) and is called a coward. So the average Joe, reaches the end of his contract with his company, has an offer to improve himself (not monetarily) and doesn't accept.......because of............loyalty. Ask Keven Garnett how that works.

Kevin Garnett is not "The King", nor will he ever go down amongst the game's elite. Lebron James invites Jordan comparisons and wants to be considered in that class - Jordan didn't have to run to another team packed with 2 other top 15 players to win a title. He made Scottie Pippen into a star.

As for Lebron and obligation to Cleveland - no, he has none. Of course he can leave them, and of course it does not reflect poorly upon him. But the way in which he left them was pretty disrespectful, carrying out that reality TV crap. It was a joke.

Furthermore, Lebron had the talent around him to win a championship. It's the reason they won 61 games in the regular season. They were the best team in the NBA. Then they got in the playoffs, and Lebron revealed his lack of mental toughness, again.

Now he's running away for help. Does that make him a bad guy? No, of course not. Again, its not that he left Cleveland, its the way he left them.

As for Lebron taking less $$ - that's a ridiculous point. The guy is a brand. His salary is just a part of his income. His income will be greater if he succeeds and wins a championship. A championship equals money.

If he really wanted to win a title imminently, Chicago was his quickest route. The team in place there was more ready to win than what Miami could do, though I am impressed they added Miller to the mix. Who knows what Lebron wants? Based on everything we know about him, all he cares about is attention and his ego. I see no evidence to the contrary. From day one the guy has craved it and has put winning and playing the right way second. He could learn a thing or two from Kobe and Jordan when it comes to on-court mentality if he weren't too busy with the showtime crap.

 

[scout]

Kevin Garnett is not "The King", nor will he ever go down amongst the game's elite. Lebron James invites Jordan comparisons and wants to be considered in that class - Jordan didn't have to run to another team packed with 2 other top 15 players to win a title. He made Scottie Pippen into a star.

As for Lebron and obligation to Cleveland - no, he has none. Of course he can leave them, and of course it does not reflect poorly upon him. But the way in which he left them was pretty disrespectful, carrying out that reality TV crap. It was a joke.

Furthermore, Lebron had the talent around him to win a championship. It's the reason they won 61 games in the regular season. They were the best team in the NBA. Then they got in the playoffs, and Lebron revealed his lack of mental toughness, again.

Now he's running away for help. Does that make him a bad guy? No, of course not. Again, its not that he left Cleveland, its the way he left them.

As for Lebron taking less $$ - that's a ridiculous point. The guy is a brand. His salary is just a part of his income. His income will be greater if he succeeds and wins a championship. A championship equals money.

If he really wanted to win a title imminently, Chicago was his quickest route. The team in place there was more ready to win than what Miami could do, though I am impressed they added Miller to the mix. Who knows what Lebron wants? Based on everything we know about him, all he cares about is attention and his ego. I see no evidence to the contrary. From day one the guy has craved it and has put winning and playing the right way second. He could learn a thing or two from Kobe and Jordan when it comes to on-court mentality if he weren't too busy with the showtime crap.

You seem to be agreeing with my original post.

 

[eagle eye]

very much dislike the way Lebron and his team of marketing wonks went about all this with "The Decision" nonsense. But I have no problem with him joining the Heat to play with Wade and Bosh.

People bizarrely seem intent on bashing him for sacrificing a shot at individual excellence and glory in order to win with other great players. Nobody does it alone. Not Kobe. Not Larry. Not MJ. Had the Cavs won the NBA championship no star player would have won with a more mediocre supporting cast than Lebron in the modern era. MJ would not have won with that team. So in that respect I can understand how it would have been great to see him accomplish that. But I became convinced watching the playoffs the last couple years that the team may be a 60 win club but they weren't championship material. Too many holes and deficiencies were exposed in the physical and intense games of the playoffs. The organisation had a poor front office and a terrible owner the entire time. What competent move did they ever make during the Lebron era? He basically fell in their laps as the obvious first pick and they demonstrated very little wisdom moulding the roster around him through seven years. People can bleat on about how it diminishes his "legacy" or how it dilutes their own definition of "greatness." But that is their problem not his. He may not end up being the GOAT or fall a few pegs down the list. But so what? If he gets a ring he is still a winner. It's his damn life. Some of the ranting and gnashing out there in the media and on the net really is over the top. If you're not a Cleveland fan then put down the pitchfork, snuff out those torches, and wipe the foam from the side of your mouths!

Another anti LJ-to-Miami sentiment making the rounds is that Lebron needs Dwayne more than Dwayne needs Lebron. That this will be Wade's team. Nobody worked harder to get LJ to the Heat than DW. His close friendship with Wade was a big draw for him. I believe he was likely headed to the Heat whether or not Bosh joined them. It will be fascinating to watch whether or not it works.

 

[dhamz]

Furthermore, Lebron had the talent around him to win a championship. It's the reason they won 61 games in the regular season. They were the best team in the NBA. Then they got in the playoffs, and Lebron revealed his lack of mental toughness, again.

45% from the floor, 26.8 ppg, 9 reb, 7 ast, 2 stl, 1 blk
40% from the floor, 28.6 ppg, 8 reb, 3.9 ast, 2 stl, 1 blk

Those are playoff stats against the Celtics this year. The first guy was Lebron who is getting all blame for Cleveland losing, the 2nd guy was Kobe who was the Finals MVP, declared by some as the best Laker ever, on the cover of SI, etc. One got way too much blame, the other way too much credit.

Lebron struggled because that is what happens when a great defensive team like the Celtics won't let you beat them. They were going to make his teammates beat them and his teammates couldn't come through. Kobe struggled too, for the same reason, but his team won because his teammates came through. Kobe's 2008 Finals stats really weren't much different (40%, 26/5/5 with 3 stls per) but this time Fisher won a game by dominating a 4th quarter and Gasol outplayed Garnett badly in several games and LA squeaked by in 7 games.

The way Lebron left with the reality TV crap was beyond embarassing but there wasn't talent around him in Cleveland. There isn't a single guy on that team you would want as a starter on the Celtics. The closest you'd get is Varejo as a guy off the bench. They probably win 20-25 without Lebron next year.

 

[patsfan13]

I don't think the Heat have the $$$$ to put together a team with any sort of depth at all. If the Celtics are healthy at playoff time they will beat this team.

at the 4-5 spots the Celtics have Davis-O'Neal-Garnett-Perk, the heat have Bosh & TBD, Celtics clearly better

2-3 Celts Pierce- Allen- TBD (T Allen?), Heat have Wade James & TBD, Heat Better

1 Celts Rondo and Bradley, Heat Chambers, Clets clearly better

 

[TrueBeliever]

I think it's entirely possible the Cavs will win a title before the Heat, because from what I hear these signings leave Miami with $10 million in cap space to spend on the remaining 8 roster spots. Apparently they went to the Daniel Snyder School of Pro Sports Management.

 

[scout]

I think it's entirely possible the Cavs will win a title before the Heat, because from what I hear these signings leave Miami with $10 million in cap space to spend on the remaining 8 roster spots. Apparently they went to the Daniel Snyder School of Pro Sports Management.

Yea, they just signed Brad Miller.
The Atlanta Hawks gave the Celts trouble because the Hawks were young and athletic.........................HELLO.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

My thoughts on the whole ordeal:

- I can't be mad at Miami or LeBron like so many seem to be. I thought it'd be best for him and his legacy to go to Chicago where he'd still have a championship caliber team, but not an 'ultra' team where you can basically X out any chance of anymore Jordan comparisons. Regardless, all the outrage... burning jerseys, some of the words being thrown around at him, is ridiculous. Miami lucked out pretty good here and they're in a great situation now, good for them.

- If I were a Cavs fan I'd be embarrassed about my owner. The same guy you accuse of quitting you were ready to offer a max deal to, right. And talk about delusional... we'll be lucky if any of us are still alive whenever the Cavs win a title, let alone them doing it before the Heat.

- Depth or no depth, I really don't see how the Heat don't win it all next year barring injury. That team is a matchup nightmare, especially with the Miller addition. That's someone you absolutely have to guard, while trying to handle the big 3 at the same time. Don't see how any team is going to accomplish that. They just need some rebounders right now and maybe an Eddie House.

 

[scout]

Just saw the live performance of the Heat introducing their big 3. What makes me want to vomit more then watching that introduction was seeing James wearing #6.
The statement James made concerning those basketball numbers is maybe the most moronic statements ever made by a professional basketball player.

Just so we are clear on this. In 50 years, and maybe even 100, Micheal Jordan will be a remembered as a great basketball player. Bill Russell will be remembered as a legend.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Are there any odds yet on which Heat player Lebron's mom is going to bang?

 

[Kontradiction]

I don't think the Heat have the $$$$ to put together a team with any sort of depth at all. If the Celtics are healthy at playoff time they will beat this team.

at the 4-5 spots the Celtics have Davis-O'Neal-Garnett-Perk, the heat have Bosh & TBD, Celtics clearly better

2-3 Celts Pierce- Allen- TBD (T Allen?), Heat have Wade James & TBD, Heat Better

1 Celts Rondo and Bradley, Heat Chambers, Clets clearly better

Your big men are better than what the Heat have right now. But the main match-up there would be Garnett and Bosh. Davis, because of his size, shouldn't be expected to match up well with Bosh 1 on 1. O'Neal is soft and shouldn't be counted on as a starting center. Perkins shouldn't be considered since he IS a starting center and would be matching up with whomever the Heat put at center (either the rookie or someone like Ilgauskas, as has been mentioned). But Garnett vs. Bosh is a match-up that Garnett can win. On that token, I'd take Wade and James ANY day of the week over Pierce and Allen at this point. Rondo over Chalmers is definitely a match-up in favor of the Celts. Despite my criticisms of Rondo during the playoffs (free throw shooting and the mid-range jumpshot), he's still an extremely solid player in every other aspect of his game. Now, on that note...

Los Angeles Lakers free agent Derek Fisher to meet with Miami Heat president Pat Riley - ESPN Los Angeles

EDIT: I guess I should make a prediction of sorts. As of right now, I think Boston matches up with Miami better than anybody else in the East (this includes Orlando and Chicago). Wade and James would cause match-up nightmares for Orlando's defense and would chase their three point shooters off of the three point line almost at will (similar to what the Celtics did in the Eastern Conference Finals). Boston is also more able than the other two to contain, not shut down, but contain Wade and James. They would win due to Garnett, Rondo, and their bench. However, give Riley and this team some time to assemble a complete team around these three. After the roster is complete, we'll talk.

 

[dhamz]

The hype of the Heat not being able to add anyone around their 3 stars seems to have been more hype than anything.

Chalmers, Wade, Lebron, Bosh along with Mike Miller and Haslim who have both reportedly agreed in principle to go to Miami make about 75% of a complete NBA rotation. And it is a great 75%.

They could use a true back-up PG which is why they are meeting with Fisher but could always make due with Lebron and Wade playing minutes there.

Where they find 48 minutes worth of defense and rebounding and fouls to give at center in this market is really their big question. The Celtics who actually some $ had to go with Jermaine O'neal whose body is about 150 years old in basketball years. The Heat will probably settle for less in the post this year.

Certainly that has potential to be a fatal flaw come playoff time when everyone turns up the intensity and game plans are much more focused to exploit their opponents weaknesses than in the regular season.

I think a healthy Boston team would still be the best in the East. I'm just not sure I'd bet very much on them getting to the playoffs healthy again given the age and the miles on the key guys.

 

[BradyManny]

45% from the floor, 26.8 ppg, 9 reb, 7 ast, 2 stl, 1 blk
40% from the floor, 28.6 ppg, 8 reb, 3.9 ast, 2 stl, 1 blk

Those are playoff stats against the Celtics this year. The first guy was Lebron who is getting all blame for Cleveland losing, the 2nd guy was Kobe who was the Finals MVP, declared by some as the best Laker ever, on the cover of SI, etc. One got way too much blame, the other way too much credit.

Lebron struggled because that is what happens when a great defensive team like the Celtics won't let you beat them. They were going to make his teammates beat them and his teammates couldn't come through. Kobe struggled too, for the same reason, but his team won because his teammates came through. Kobe's 2008 Finals stats really weren't much different (40%, 26/5/5 with 3 stls per) but this time Fisher won a game by dominating a 4th quarter and Gasol outplayed Garnett badly in several games and LA squeaked by in 7 games.

The way Lebron left with the reality TV crap was beyond embarassing but there wasn't talent around him in Cleveland. There isn't a single guy on that team you would want as a starter on the Celtics. The closest you'd get is Varejo as a guy off the bench. They probably win 20-25 without Lebron next year.

The numbers are rather irrelevant. For starters, Lebron played well in the two wins, and rather well - boosting his stats. In the four losses, he was awful (37% fg), padding his stats with free throws.

But, like I said, the #s are irrelevant either way. If you watched the two series, you would've come to the conclusion that Lebron - as he has in the past several seasons - didn't do what was necessary to win. Aside from the big game 7 he had against Pierce in 08, he's choked and or given up.

Kobe, on the other hand, certainly didn't have his A game against the Celts, but he did do what was necessary to win, and did play well in the clutch.

Lebron is the Manning of the NBA. Until he wins a title, there's no way around it.

Again, if you are going to argue his supporting cast isn't good enough, you have to explain how they were far and away the best team in the regular season and how they steamrolled through teams up until they hit the Celts.

And looking at the four losses vs the C's, we know Lebron didn't play well in any of them, and essentially threw in the towel in the end. The series loss against the Celts is 100% on Lebron, and not his supporting cast.