OT: LeBron James

[dhamz]

The numbers are rather irrelevant. For starters, Lebron played well in the two wins, and rather well - boosting his stats. In the four losses, he was awful (37% fg), padding his stats with free throws.

But, like I said, the #s are irrelevant either way. If you watched the two series, you would've come to the conclusion that Lebron - as he has in the past several seasons - didn't do what was necessary to win. Aside from the big game 7 he had against Pierce in 08, he's choked and or given up.

Kobe, on the other hand, certainly didn't have his A game against the Celts, but he did do what was necessary to win, and did play well in the clutch.

Lebron is the Manning of the NBA. Until he wins a title, there's no way around it.

Again, if you are going to argue his supporting cast isn't good enough, you have to explain how they were far and away the best team in the regular season and how they steamrolled through teams up until they hit the Celts.

And looking at the four losses vs the C's, we know Lebron didn't play well in any of them, and essentially threw in the towel in the end. The series loss against the Celts is 100% on Lebron, and not his supporting cast.

Kobe didn't play well in the clutch. He submitted the worst game 7 performace of any great player in over 30 years. It was historically bad. If not for Artest, Gasol, and Fisher his 6-24 goes down alongside DJ's 0 for in Game 7.

We clearly don't agree on Lebron's supporting cast. I think they had 1 great player and a bunch of role players who played hard every single night which wins you a lot of regular season. That is especially true in the East where there was only 2 other legit teams. It gets exposed in the playoffs because everyone plays hard and talent wins out.


We'll find out this year. If there was championship supporting talent around him they should be a decent team (over 500 whihc in the East make the playoffs) since every other major piece is back but him. I doubt they win more than 20-30.

 

[Boston Boxer]

i have a question about tampering in the NBA...is there a rule against tampering? The reason i say this is because if there is, then why do the players get to hatch a plan to play together in a certain city. Letrader, Bosh, and Wade said that they hatched this plan back in 2006 and all signed contracts that would make them free agents the same year.

Does not seem right

 

[Kontradiction]

i have a question about tampering in the NBA...is there a rule against tampering? The reason i say this is because if there is, then why do the players get to hatch a plan to play together in a certain city. Letrader, Bosh, and Wade said that they hatched this plan back in 2006 and all signed contracts that would make them free agents the same year.

Does not seem right

There was no plan. They simply expressed a wish to play together. None of the three were even sure that they were going to end up with the Heat until two weeks ago when it became evident that the Heat could land all three of them if they traded away Beasley.

 

[scout]

Yea, they just signed Brad Miller.
The Atlanta Hawks gave the Celts trouble because the Hawks were young and athletic.........................HELLO.

Negotiating with Derick Fisher.

 

[IcyPatriot]

LeBron negotiated with the devil ... sold his soul ...

 

[NYCPatsFan]

NY is the greatest city in the world if you like garbage land fills and dirt and the smell of piss in the mourning while walking down the st. NY is a open land fill..

Yup, and south eastern MA is where the NYC landfill + 'mourning' piss smell wafts upwards to, but then is no match for the local south eastern MA stench.

 

[Boston Boxer]

There was no plan. They simply expressed a wish to play together. None of the three were even sure that they were going to end up with the Heat until two weeks ago when it became evident that the Heat could land all three of them if they traded away Beasley.

during an interview with Lebron and then in another one with Wade...they both mentioned the same thing...agreeing to contract that would have them all FA at the same time and that they were going to play with each other. Did not say Miami, but they said they would be on the same team. It was in an interview this week.

 

[Kontradiction]

during an interview with Lebron and then in another one with Wade...they both mentioned the same thing...agreeing to contract that would have them all FA at the same time and that they were going to play with each other. Did not say Miami, but they said they would be on the same team. It was in an interview this week.

Again, the problem here is that they didn't KNOW for a fact that they were all going to be on the same team. They were only interested in it. The possibility only became real very recently when it was discovered that the Heat could afford all three of them with dumping Beasley.

 

[BradyManny]

Again, the problem here is that they didn't KNOW for a fact that they were all going to be on the same team. They were only interested in it. The possibility only became real very recently when it was discovered that the Heat could afford all three of them with dumping Beasley.

I don't know about that - I think at least one, or all three, of them are on the record saying that they had this planned since Team USA.

Still, I don't see why that's collusion really. Its free agency in the NBA, I don't think players could collude. If they all want to play together, there's nothing stopping them.

 

[Kontradiction]

I don't know about that - I think at least one, or all three, of them are on the record saying that they had this planned since Team USA.

Still, I don't see why that's collusion really. Its free agency in the NBA, I don't think players could collude. If they all want to play together, there's nothing stopping them.

I didn't see anything that said they were PLANNING to play together. In order to have a plan, you would need a place where all of you can play. This more or less sounds like they just wanted to play together and talked about it at length (i.e. - "how could would it be if we were all on the same team?") during the Olympics. But like I said, in order for there to be a plan, there needs to be a place to execute the plan. Until a week ago, there didn't seem to be a place that could do that.

And you're right. I don't think you can charge players with tampering against themselves.

 

[scout]

I didn't see anything that said they were PLANNING to play together. In order to have a plan, you would need a place where all of you can play. This more or less sounds like they just wanted to play together and talked about it at length (i.e. - "how could would it be if we were all on the same team?") during the Olympics. But like I said, in order for there to be a plan, there needs to be a place to execute the plan. Until a week ago, there didn't seem to be a place that could do that.

And you're right. I don't think you can charge players with tampering against themselves.

Sounds like your being a little defensive.
There is no such thing as collusion when it concerns players talking. Collusion only concerns owners at this point in time. I also have heard that the players talked about joining each other. It didn't matter if there was a team with cap space. Many teams would clear the cap to make it happen. As a matter of fact, that is exactly what happened.
Not sure how the agents enter into the collusion discussion, but, a player might get financial cap information from one of thier agents if they couldn't figure it out. The reason I say that is this, 60% of NBA players end up broke after thier playing days.

 

[Kontradiction]

Sounds like your being a little defensive.
There is no such thing as collusion when it concerns players talking. Collusion only concerns owners at this point in time. I also have heard that the players talked about joining each other. It didn't matter if there was a team with cap space. Many teams would clear the cap to make it happen. As a matter of fact, that is exactly what happened.
Not sure how the agents enter into the collusion discussion, but, a player might get financial cap information from one of thier agents if they couldn't figure it out. The reason I say that is this, 60% of NBA players end up broke after thier playing days.

I'm not being defensive. It's just common sense. These players could have said that they wanted to play together at some point, but it's doubtful they made plans to go to the Heat. It didn't become apparent that they could handle all three salaries up until a few weeks ago. Certainly not in 2008 when the Olympics were happening. And even then, LBJ, Bosh, and Wade have had to take paycuts to join Miami.

 

[IcyPatriot]

 

[Boston Boxer]

I don't know about that - I think at least one, or all three, of them are on the record saying that they had this planned since Team USA.

Still, I don't see why that's collusion really. Its free agency in the NBA, I don't think players could collude. If they all want to play together, there's nothing stopping them.

that was my question...i know team cannot talk or contact players before the FA period, just didnt know if it was the same for players. There were several teams that would/could have fit them in the budget...Cleveland, Chicago, New York, and Miami all had the room for all three players.

In the end, the pressure is on them to win. If they dont, then they all look stupid.

 

[Boston Boxer]

I'm not being defensive. It's just common sense. These players could have said that they wanted to play together at some point, but it's doubtful they made plans to go to the Heat. It didn't become apparent that they could handle all three salaries up until a few weeks ago. Certainly not in 2008 when the Olympics were happening. And even then, LBJ, Bosh, and Wade have had to take paycuts to join Miami.

ya dude, you are being defensive. This was a shame from the get go. Good for them, now they have to win. I am sure they will now struggle to put food on the table with those pay cuts they all took.

 

[scout]

I'm not being defensive. It's just common sense. These players could have said that they wanted to play together at some point, but it's doubtful they made plans to go to the Heat. It didn't become apparent that they could handle all three salaries up until a few weeks ago. Certainly not in 2008 when the Olympics were happening. And even then, LBJ, Bosh, and Wade have had to take paycuts to join Miami.

My thoughts were that they discussed playing with each other, not for any particular team. I don't think its unrealistic to think that there would be a number of teams clearing cap space in anticipation of this free agent period.

Have you checked Vegas odds? I would think Miami is the favorite to win it all. That's who I'd pick.

 

[Kontradiction]

ya dude, you are being defensive. This was a shame from the get go. Good for them, now they have to win. I am sure they will now struggle to put food on the table with those pay cuts they all took.

They left $15M on the table each. And, again, I'm not being defensive. Common sense should tell you that if there was a plan then there would have to be a place to go to execute it. There wasn't in 2008. Hell, without paycuts, there wouldn't be one in 2010. While they may not struggle to put food on the table, the fact still stands that if each of them had taken the max amount, there wouldn't have been a place to play for all three to play. You'd be looking at what I thought we'd be looking at almost a week ago: Wade and Bosh with some solid role players around them. Not what we have today. There is no collusion, there is no tampering. It was just a lucky draw of one team preparing for a huge free agency period by clearing cap room. The Heat were smart and that's pretty much the bottom line.

Now, if I were being defensive about it, I would have gone off and said that your posts in this thread sound a lot like sour grapes. But I haven't gone that route, have I?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5371956

 

[Kontradiction]

My thoughts were that they discussed playing with each other, not for any particular team. I don't think its unrealistic to think that there would be a number of teams clearing cap space in anticipation of this free agent period.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you. But, IMO, clearing cap space in anticipation of a lot of high quality free agents being available does not signal a plan in place between the team and players to create a super team.

Have you checked Vegas odds? I would think Miami is the favorite to win it all. That's who I'd pick.

They're certainly one of the favorites. I need to see a complete team, though, before I label them the absolute favorites. Supposedly, the team put an enticing offer together for Fisher. If he comes aboard, I would go ahead and agree with Vegas odds about them being the front-runners. Fisher joining this team means the Heat have the luxery to do what the Celts did back in 2008, and that's to put a younger, inexperienced guy out there at center. Someone who can snag you a few rebounds and play defense, but won't be counted on to generate scoring.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

1. Dwayne Wade is going to end up being the biggest champion of his generation, to take the mantle from Kobe, who took it from Jordan. He isn't just an elite player; apparently his personality and leadership are strong enough to convince 2 studs to take massive pay cuts to pay for him.

2. The Cleveland Cavaliers owner is pathetic, unprofessional, and classless. When I read the full letter I immediately thought he sounded like a petulant little child, or a scorned girlfriend. Very immature. This letter actually validates LeBron's decision even more. Cleveland is never going to be a champion with this owner. What player would want to play for an owner like this.

3. I don't blame LeBron for leaving Cleveland. He went about his announcement in a very immature, self-absorbed way, which isn't surprising from a young 25 year old who never went to college and has been praised since he was 10. LeBron signed and fulfilled 2 contracts with Cleveland, spending 7 years there. The entire time, his best supporting players were Mo Williams, 37 year old Shaq, and a broken down Antawn Jamison, and they were only added very recently. The coach and GM were horrible. Yet LeBron single-handedly took them to an NBA finals once with no other good player. Jordan had Pippen within 5 years of being with the Bulls. Kobe had Shaq early in his career. LeBron was done waiting, it became clear his owner/GM/coach weren't up to par.

4. About the debate going on between Scout/JoeSixPat/etc... I would offer an analogy of Ray Bourque. Bourque was beloved by Boston fans, the owner/GM never made the big move to put the team over the top over several years, and Bourque eventually won in Colorado. Now, even if Bourque grew up near Boston, became a free agent and publicly chose Colorado for a ring, I think Boston fans would be devastated but wouldn't hate Bourque, nor would they act like bitter irrational little kids. For the Cleveland owner (and fans) to call LeBron a 'coward', is ridiculous and laughable. The guy left 15M on the table to go play with two of his best friends with a great chance to win rings, in one of the most fun cities in the world for a 25 year old. He chose championships, friendship, and fun. None of the other cities could have offered that, and it wasn't cowardly. He already played out the hometown loyalty card for 7 years, and it was clear the franchise was incompetent.

 

[ausbacker]

1. Dwayne Wade is going to end up being the biggest champion of his generation, to take the mantle from Kobe, who took it from Jordan. He isn't just an elite player; apparently his personality and leadership are strong enough to convince 2 studs to take massive pay cuts to pay for him.

2. The Cleveland Cavaliers owner is pathetic, unprofessional, and classless. When I read the full letter I immediately thought he sounded like a petulant little child, or a scorned girlfriend. Very immature. This letter actually validates LeBron's decision even more. Cleveland is never going to be a champion with this owner. What player would want to play for an owner like this.

3. I don't blame LeBron for leaving Cleveland. He went about his announcement in a very immature, self-absorbed way, which isn't surprising from a young 25 year old who never went to college and has been praised since he was 10. LeBron signed and fulfilled 2 contracts with Cleveland, spending 7 years there. The entire time, his best supporting players were Mo Williams, 37 year old Shaq, and a broken down Antawn Jamison, and they were only added very recently. The coach and GM were horrible. Yet LeBron single-handedly took them to an NBA finals once with no other good player. Jordan had Pippen within 5 years of being with the Bulls. Kobe had Shaq early in his career. LeBron was done waiting, it became clear his owner/GM/coach weren't up to par.

4. About the debate going on between Scout/JoeSixPat/etc... I would offer an analogy of Ray Bourque. Bourque was beloved by Boston fans, the owner/GM never made the big move to put the team over the top over several years, and Bourque eventually won in Colorado. Now, even if Bourque grew up near Boston, became a free agent and publicly chose Colorado for a ring, I think Boston fans would be devastated but wouldn't hate Bourque, nor would they act like bitter irrational little kids. For the Cleveland owner (and fans) to call LeBron a 'coward', is ridiculous and laughable. The guy left 15M on the table to go play with two of his best friends with a great chance to win rings, in one of the most fun cities in the world for a 25 year old. He chose championships, friendship, and fun. None of the other cities could have offered that, and it wasn't cowardly. He already played out the hometown loyalty card for 7 years, and it was clear the franchise was incompetent.

Another ESPN link I know but it's not as charitable as most people would appear to believe. The endorsements alone will cover these "sacrifices".

Heat stars sign six-year deals