The Jets suck (merged)

[Kontradiction]

3 TDs in the 3 playoff games from Keller is all the consistency you need. Not to mention he murdered the Bengals in the wild card game.

Crumpler was good...4 years ago, and while the rookie TEs might be good there is no way you can call them better than Keller when they haven't even played an NFL snap yet.

He had a good stretch in the playoffs. I can't deny that. However, aside from the Colts game, Sanchez seemed to be extremely reined in. He was only really allowed to go for short, high percentage stuff which meant that Keller was the number one target a lot of times. However, he has disappeared for chunks of time the last two seasons. Playoffs or not as of right now he is inconsistent. That could change this season, or it might not. We'll see.

 

[Joker]

The Rats have HARTSOCK...RUN FOR THE HILLS!

Fans of the team with 41 straight years of absolute nothing should probably just keep their drooling mouths shut until the Rodents actually win something.

 

[averywhitehall]

First off, I'm not sure where you got your numbers from, but it wasn't from NFL.com. If it had been, you'd have had Ellis with 4 forced fumbles and Warren with 1.

Next, you fail to take into consideration that Ellis, in each of the years mentioned, was on a defense that played more snaps than the Pats defense. During that time the Jets had a total of 2887 defensive snaps to the Pats 2695. You also fail to consider that Ty Warren missed 6 games during that time.

Also, you fail to take into consideration that the Jets play a single gap 3-4 defense in comparison to the Jets, more aggressive, single gap defense.



Only the ignorant think that the Pro-Bowl is anything more than a popularity contest.

Jenkins isn't the better NT.




I love when people try and sound smart by making such blanket statements like you did. I have news for you, the Jets have NOT "always been one of the top 7 kick off return avg. teams" since 2000. In 2000, the Jets were 22nd on kick return avg and 27th on punt return avg. In 2001, The Jets were 15th in kick return avg. and 15th on punt return avg. It wasn't until 2002 that the Jets, FINALLY, broke into the top 5 on both Kick and Punt return avg. In 2003, the Jets were 2nd and 7th respectively. In 2004, The Jets fell to 10th in kick return avg. and 23rd in punt return avg. In 2005, the Jets were 3rd and 25 respectively. In 2006, the Jets were 4th and 19th. In 2007, the Jets fell to 14th and 13th respectively. In 2008, the jets were 14th and 7th. And last year, with the changes in the rules, the Jets were back to 4th. So, it's clear to me that you tried to just pull something out of your arse and hoped that we were stupid enough not to check your facts. Guess what. We check facts. And you've been found wanting..

As for your belief that the Jets will be fine on their returns..Where they won't be fine is on kick-offs.. Where Folk is a huge downgrade over Feely. There is a reason that Dallas stopped using Folk on kick-offs.. Cause he was down to 60.6 YPK in 2008..






He didn't contradict himself. This is just your poor comprehension. In fact, anyone with have a brain can see how him saying that you were a mediocre team because of your running game and defense can see that it's a slam against the QB..



Do you really want us to go through all the flash-in-the-pans QBs who had decent stinks only to sputter the following year??? The Jets have had plenty of them..



I differ from many people here because I see Edwards and Cotchery as a potentially lethal combination. Especially with Keller underneath. But that's where it ends right now. Holmes may or may not be with the time by the time the regular season comes around. He can't seem to stay out of trouble.



You are correct. The Jets make-up is much different. You got right of leaders such as Faneca and Jones and brought in stooges like "I can't keep my pecker in my pants" Cromartie and Holmes. Two major malcontents.. Not to mention LaDanian "I'm Mr. Class (less)" Tomlinson.




The Jets O-line hasn't proven it can run block without Faneca there to cover for Mangold and Ferguson. You're bringing in a guy who was getting schooled at OT against D1 players that he asked to move inside.. You really think that Mangold and Ferguson can cover for him? I don't..




What I saw was a guy scrambling for his life who was bailed out by his receivers.. Again, 3 games does not guarantee true improvement. If Sanchez played better when the games counted most, the Jets choked games away to Jacksonville and Atlanta.. I mean, in the last game of the season, Sanchez was only 8 for 16 for 63 yards.. And the game before that, Indy gift-wrapped the game for you guys..


Different Era.. Not even close to being an intelligent comparison.




Do the Jets have talent? Yes. But, the reality is that it's more likely that Sanchez turns into a mediocre QB who shows only slight improvement with the Play-off performance being an over-achievement with tons of help from his receivers than it is that Sanchez had "IT". Because, he didn't show he had "IT" during the season. And that counts just as much as the play-offs.

I appreciate your insight...however this is a civil discussion about differing NFL opinions and there is no need to insult me since I have not insulted anyone. Acting like a typical Jets fan I see.

With regards to the KR: The Jets have had 2 different pro-bowl kickers since 2005: Justin Miller, Leon Washington. I didn't look up the KR stats like you did so I can admit I was a bit hasty with the Jets boasting. But 2 different Pro-bowl kickers since 2005 means that the scheme is outstanding and not just the returners. Also I was referring to kick returns only and not punt returns. Jets have been top ten in KR average for 6 of the past 10 years, showing the value of scheme over returner.

With regards to Jenkins vs Wilfork: Jenkins was 1st team All-pro in 2008 as well as a pro-bowler. Not just popularity I'd say. But maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

With regards to Ellis vs Warren: I was not aware of the number of snaps by either defense. However, playing more defensive snaps doesn't mean Warren would produce Ellis' numbers. Ellis is better that Ty Warren. Ty Warren's mother would even co-sign that statement.

With regards to Sanchez's rookie season vs Bradshaw's: Explain to me why the era means anything. Bad QB play is bad QB play. But you're right it's not even an intelligent comparison. Bradshaw didn't have a season of throwing more touchdown than interceptions until his 6th year. Maybe I should have used a different example.

With regards to the O-Line: You're saying Mangold and Ferguson needed to be covered for? Mangold is the best center in the NFL and Ferguson in a top 5 RT. You're assuming that Faneca will be replaced by the rookie. But like I said it could be him or a veteran they bring in. Why won't that sink in? The pass blocking will be better. 6.0 sacks allowed by Faneca last year, most in the NFL by a GUARD! He had to go if the Jets were going to be a passing team.

About Mark Sanchez: GETTING BAILED OUT BY HIS RECEIVERS!?!? C'MON MAN! ENOUGH WITH THAT!

(Takes a breath) *Whew* Sorry about that. I had an overly emotional (what was the name of the coach who always cried?) reaction.

Mark Sanchez has the highest QB rating of any rookie QB in NFL history since the Merger in 1970 (92.7). He also has the highest single game rating of any rookie QB in playoff history (139.4). No way he was getting bailed out in the playoffs! No way. See now...me being a Jets homer I taped the playoff games (whole season actually) and re-watched them. Maaaaaan Sanchez made some OUTSTANDING passes in tight coverage in the AFC Championship game. I'll tell you something else...he left people very impressed.

Just check out some of the quotes from indystar.com regarding the AFC Championship Game.

IndyStar.com | Bounce It Off Phil B. | The Indianapolis Star

"Mathis almost gets QB Mark Sanchez, tugs at him, but the rookie passer throws a perfect pass to Jerricho Cotchery for the first down. Nice toe drag by the receiver to get both feet in bounds. Even the Jets weren't sure, and fearing a replay, they quick-snapped the next play."

"Pretty obvious mistake next as Lacey bites on the Sanchez pump fake and Edwards beats him deep for the 80-yard TD. Sanchez smartly pumps it once to get DE Dwight Freeney in the air, too, then is on the mark to a wide-open Edwards. Jets, 7-3."

"Another great Sanchez pass, and he takes a shot from DL Raheem Brock, but the throw is on the money to TE Dustin Keller, who shrugs off Bullitt's tight coverage and turns at the perfect moment the ball is thrown for the TD. Jets, 14-6."

"Sanchez rolls right, another play that has caught the Colts in the past (remember those Mike Shanahan rollouts with Denver, and Gary Kubiak adding them in Houston's game plan). Cotchery catches the pass for a first down at the Colts' 37."

"Third-and-10 and Sanchez makes yet another great throw. The kid shows some real skill in this game. Cotchery catches the perfect pass, just over the outstretched arm of Lacey, who has decent coverage. First down."

How can he see it, I can see it, But not Patriots fans?

 

[RodThePat]

I appreciate your insight...however this is a civil discussion about differing NFL opinions and there is no need to insult me since I have not insulted anyone. Acting like a typical Jets fan I see.

With regards to the KR: The Jets have had 2 different pro-bowl kickers since 2005: Justin Miller, Leon Washington. I didn't look up the KR stats like you did so I can admit I was a bit hasty with the Jets boasting. But 2 different Pro-bowl kickers since 2005 means that the scheme is outstanding and not just the returners. Also I was referring to kick returns only and not punt returns. Jets have been top ten in KR average for 6 of the past 10 years, showing the value of scheme over returner.

With regards to Jenkins vs Wilfork: Jenkins was 1st team All-pro in 2008 as well as a pro-bowler. Not just popularity I'd say. But maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

With regards to Ellis vs Warren: I was not aware of the number of snaps by either defense. However, playing more defensive snaps doesn't mean Warren would produce Ellis' numbers. Ellis is better that Ty Warren. Ty Warren's mother would even co-sign that statement.

With regards to Sanchez's rookie season vs Bradshaw's: Explain to me why the era means anything. Bad QB play is bad QB play. But you're right it's not even an intelligent comparison. Bradshaw didn't have a season of throwing more touchdown than interceptions until his 6th year. Maybe I should have used a different example.

With regards to the O-Line: You're saying Mangold and Ferguson needed to be covered for? Mangold is the best center in the NFL and Ferguson in a top 5 RT. You're assuming that Faneca will be replaced by the rookie. But like I said it could be him or a veteran they bring in. Why won't that sink in? The pass blocking will be better. 6.0 sacks allowed by Faneca last year, most in the NFL by a GUARD! He had to go if the Jets were going to be a passing team.

About Mark Sanchez: GETTING BAILED OUT BY HIS RECEIVERS!?!? C'MON MAN! ENOUGH WITH THAT!

(Takes a breath) *Whew* Sorry about that. I had an overly emotional (what was the name of the coach who always cried?) reaction.

Mark Sanchez has the highest QB rating of any rookie QB in NFL history since the Merger in 1970 (92.7). He also has the highest single game rating of any rookie QB in playoff history (139.4). No way he was getting bailed out in the playoffs! No way. See now...me being a Jets homer I taped the playoff games (whole season actually) and re-watched them. Maaaaaan Sanchez made some OUTSTANDING passes in tight coverage in the AFC Championship game. I'll tell you something else...he left people very impressed.

Just check out some of the quotes from indystar.com regarding the AFC Championship Game.

IndyStar.com | Bounce It Off Phil B. | The Indianapolis Star

"Mathis almost gets QB Mark Sanchez, tugs at him, but the rookie passer throws a perfect pass to Jerricho Cotchery for the first down. Nice toe drag by the receiver to get both feet in bounds. Even the Jets weren't sure, and fearing a replay, they quick-snapped the next play."

"Pretty obvious mistake next as Lacey bites on the Sanchez pump fake and Edwards beats him deep for the 80-yard TD. Sanchez smartly pumps it once to get DE Dwight Freeney in the air, too, then is on the mark to a wide-open Edwards. Jets, 7-3."

"Another great Sanchez pass, and he takes a shot from DL Raheem Brock, but the throw is on the money to TE Dustin Keller, who shrugs off Bullitt's tight coverage and turns at the perfect moment the ball is thrown for the TD. Jets, 14-6."

"Sanchez rolls right, another play that has caught the Colts in the past (remember those Mike Shanahan rollouts with Denver, and Gary Kubiak adding them in Houston's game plan). Cotchery catches the pass for a first down at the Colts' 37."

"Third-and-10 and Sanchez makes yet another great throw. The kid shows some real skill in this game. Cotchery catches the perfect pass, just over the outstretched arm of Lacey, who has decent coverage. First down."

How can he see it, I can see it, But not Patriots fans?

Sanchez had a great O-line and great running game, which enabled him to play off play-action passes and dump-offs to Dustin Keller all day long. You're going to tell me he made the plays he had to when the game was on his shoulders in Indy?

Take the whole season and tell me what his passer rating was. He may become a great quarterback, but 2009 certainly wasn't indicative of that. What I saw was a team that was capable of winning games as long as their quarterback did not get in the way. Matt Stafford, on a far worse team, playing fewer games and dealing with injuries, carried his team single-handedly to at least one victory. The same cannot be said of Mark Sanchez in arguably one of the top 3 best rosters on the league in 09.

 

[Ring 6]

You think Ty Warren is better than Sean Ellis? Really?!?!? Let's go to the stats:

Last 3 seasons... Ellis' 162 total tackles and 19.5 sacks with 1 Forced Fumble vs Warren's 140 tackles and 7 sacks and 0 forced fumbles.

Please tell me you dont seriously think that tackle statistics are the way to compare DLineman.
And yes, Warren is better than Ellis and it isnt really even close when Warren is healthy.

Wilfolk is better than Jenkins. I don't think so. Jenkins injury problems are the only thing that Patriots can harp on about him. Funny how Wilfolk was in the pro-bowl in 2007 and in 2009, but not in 2008. Why not in 2008? Because Kris Jenkins was playing in the AFC now as was a better player. IN 2007 there was no Kris Jenkins in the AFC therefore Wilfolk was a pro-bowler...in 2009 Jenkins got injured and opened the door for Wilfolk again. Not saying he's not a great DT because he is and gives teams fits. But Jenkins is the better player.

Jenkins can't stay healthy, and even when he is 'healthy' he is so out of shape he cant play the entire game. Only a blind Jet homer would think that Jenkins is better than Wilfork when you consider the whole story.

I'm not saying he's not good. I'm saying that although Leon Washington was a dynamic threat at kick returner because of his speed and elusiveness, it was also because of the outstanding special teams coach and blocking schemes. The Jets have always been one of the top 7 kick-off return average teams in the NFL since 2000. Just saying the Jets were fine before Leon Washington and will be fine now that he's gone.

I guess I'll start using that. The Patriots are good because of Belichick. Its all coaching and schemes. Since the Jets havent won more games than the Patriots in 10 years, I guess nothing else matters.

See now you contradict yourself. First we were average because of our defense and running game....then it was because of the rookie QB.

What? How is it a contradiction to say they were average because of their good plus their bad?

I ask you again...are you saying that Sanchez's playoff performances in those 3 games didn't impress you? Maybe it's because you get to watch Tom Brady for 16 games and you unconsciously compare the two (which is unfair by the way). For a 1 year college starter and a 1 year NFL starter he played pretty darn good.

Not really. He had one good game where he only threw 15 times, one typical Sanchez outing where the running game and D saved him, and 250 yards in a loss. Not exactly impressive. Better than the guy you were afraid to have drop back a month before, sure? But thats not saying a lot.
"Good" isn't defined by how much you played in college. Good is good, bad is bad and excuses are excuses.

Now as for the receivers being lethal I am going by the 'more-than-the-sum-of-its-parts' theorem. I already stated that the Jets had a bad passing offense, but that was because of the rookie QB. Are you of the opinion that the Jets' group of receivers aren't talented at all? I notice how you forgot to mention Keller in your retort. He's a lethal receiver who caught 3 touchdown passes in the three games in the playoffs.

You need to look up the word lethal.
Holmes is a bad #1 or good #2. Edwards doesnt impress me at all, and wouldn't be a starter on a lot of teams. Cotchery is a fine #3. Keller is a dime a dozen TE. Please don't give me the crap that you can judge a TE by how many catches he has, because 90% of that is the QB and how they feel about throwing to the TE.

It all rides on the QB. As bad as you claim last seasons Jets team to be, your team was only 1 game ahead. Not much difference I guess. The makeup of our team IS much different that last seasons...which is why people are asking about issues with chemistry.

As I said the names have changed the abilities, not so much. The character, a lot.

Lamont Jordan went from part-time with the Jets great O-line and rushing attack in 2005 to the Raiders. That's why he floundered.

I agree with the full season load carrying though about Greene. But Greene is 7 years younger so fresher legs compared to Thomas Jones is not a great argument to make. Tomlinson upgraded his O-line when he went to the Jets (even without Faneca...the Jets run blocking O-Line is better than the Chargers.)

You are choosing the rosy side of every single point, and still havent moved my opinion an inch.

Did you see Sanchez play in the playoffs? (Third time I ask by the way). His poise, his awareness, his pocket presence, his accuracy, his completion percentage, his TD-INT ratio, his QB rating all improved vs the regular season. Not only did he get better when the season when on...He played better when the games counted the most! I can't be the only one who sees this!

You can't tell me that the Bengal game is Earth shattering when he threw 15 passes. He had a poor game vs SD, and a blah game vs Indy.
I don't understand how mediocre is exciting.

There are very few rookies who come in the NFL and light it up. I can only think of Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, Dan Marino, Joe Namath, Big Ben, Jim Kelly. I know there are more QB's who did well as a rookie. But there are MUCH more who came in the NFL as a rookie and played terribly...then got better. How was Brady's rookie season...oh that's right he was an understudy.

But rookie QB's in the NFL are expected to stink:
Terry Bradshaw had 9 TD's and 24 Int's in his first season... worse stats than Sanchez. He turned out pretty good huh? Not comparing Bradshaw to Sanchez: I'm saying that many people didn't see anything close to Hall Of Fame after that year..doesn't mean it's not going to happen.

I'm going to tell you now that you will never convince me of anything with the argument "He sucked, others sucked before and became good, so he will become good" MANY more that sucked early sucked forever.

All those losses were because of terrible QB play. You cannot say the Jets are not a talented team and actually mean it. Again, it all resides on the QB plays on gameday. For all of Tom Brady's great accomplishments, in the playoff game against the Ravens he played like something I left in the toilet. But that doesn't mean the Ravens were a more talented or better team than the Pats. The QB played terrible and the team lost. Same as the Jets with most of the regular season. When the QB's plays well like Sanchez in the playoffs the team wins games.

No those losses were team losses. Teams win and teams lose.
You still have the same QB. I don't know how throwing him under the bus makes you think your team is better.

 

[Ring 6]

So you hate the Jets because of the fans and the head coach and not because of the fact that the team is formidable. Fair enough.


Well heres the thing though, where is the improvement?


While it is not proven as fact, there is no reason to say that he will be as bad or worse in the second season. The guy had a QB rating of 63.0 in the regular season and improved to 92.7 in the playoffs. When the pressure was on this guy performed: moved his feet well, throws were on the money, took hits to deliver strikes.

He had 1 good game when he threw 15 passes, one poor game where the running game and D saved him, and 250 yards in a loss. Whoopee.
Take away one throw to a wide open WR on a blown coverage and that rating is probably about 75. You are excited about 180 passing yards a game.?.

Unproven over a whole season, yes, very valid point. But unproven doesn't mean he's not the better running back. He has more speed, burst, and hitting power than Thomas Jones.
McKnight isn't Washington...but Washington only played 6 games last year and the Jets were fine without him. You're comparing player vs player. I'm comparing 09-10 vs 10-11. In this case it's McKnight vs a returning from injury question mark Washington. I can't argue Tomlinson though. But 25 year old Greene>>>>32 year old Thomas Jones.

Proven and ranked #1 to unproven with question marks usually doesnt equal improvement.

Are you going to tell me you weren't impressed with the way Sanchez played as a rookie in the playoffs? Why shouldn't the Jets expect that Sanchez back again.

I am looking at the player. That player also passed for 100 yards and less than 50% vs SD and lost 31-17 to Indy. One game against Cincy with 15 passes thrown doesnt overcome a season of issues in his ability and decision making that I saw.

If you read my post it may be the draft pick, a second year player, or a veteran free agent.

none of which is good

Jason Taylor had 7 sacks last season...I don't see how that is considered done. He'd be the second best sack artist on the Pats after Banta-Cain. He may not be the Jason Taylor of old, but he doesn't have to be in this defense.

Defensive players play between 600-1000 downs. You are going to conclude that 7 plays answers all?

Lito Sheppard has 17 passes defensed and 4 interceptions in the last THREE seasons.
vs.
Cromartie has 19 passes defensed and 5 interceptions in the last TWO seasons.

There are certain levels of disappointing good sir and if both are disappointments then I will take Cromartie's over Sheppards.

Again, 3 grains of sand doesnt tell me how big the beach is. Sheppard was a good player who fell out of favor in Philly. At his peak, he was an excellent corner. Cromartie fell out of favor in SD, and IMO, was overrated all along because he got a bunch of Ints (nothing wrong with that, but its only a small part of judging a corner) has always gambled to try to look good getting a pick, never been willing to tackle, and has been reported to just refuse to play the defense called. Sheppard is a solid guy who's skills are eroding. Cromartie was overrated to begin with and played himself out of a job, plus he has character issues. I will take Sheppard every day. But thats the difference between the Patriots and Jets.

 

[Rex Ryan's Gut]

According to Andy Johnson's logic regarding second year QBs, Peyton Manning should have been terrible again after his rookie season.

Fact is, Sanchez played his best ball of the year in the playoffs with a 90+ QB rating. He should be better this year with a full season of experience under his belt.

Andy, your thoughts?

 

[Bostonian1962]

My thoughts on 2010 jets football: through the roof potential, and through the roof expectations. No record or outcome would surprise me. I do feel we are an upper echelon team. The team leadewrs is a legit concern just please never mention rhodes and leader in the same swentence. He was a me player who didn't love football and was a crappy team guy. We still have high character leaders in mangold, jenkins, ellis, revis, cotchery etc. But there is a little bit of uncertainty on how the new faces play out. You guys crap on LT but show a negative word ever said about him by a teammate or anything resembling an off the field issue. Bart scott isn't a locker detriment he just talks a lot which ties into our style. Pace ped's means nada. Harrison was busted for hgh and that meant nothing. Edwards has said n acted the right way since he got here. You mention the pats draft picks but cunningham had law incidents and spikes gouged a players eye in a game. Sd wanted to get rid of lt bc of production not character big difference if locker room is what u argue

K-Ro, sorry I'm just getting back to you. Sometimes these threads with a million responses get burried, and it's hard for me to keep up. I give you credit for staying on here, and answering a somewhat hostile crowd. I still think this could be a bad mix, but I guess we are going to find out. I stand by everything I said, and your comparison of Pace and Rodney is a bad comparison. Rodney was a great team leader, and locker room force. The last I heard about Pace was his quote blasting the victim in the Ben Roethlisberger case, and supporting him. We had a great discussion on Pace at work, with all team fan's taking some nice shots at him. He's a moron, point blank, IMHO. That said, I I like reading your posts, even if I don't agree with all of them. Keep an eye on how this new mix of players turns out. My hunch may be wrong, but I don't think so.

 

[Ring 6]

Andy, your thoughts?

I posted it earlier.
It is one of the most ridiculous arguments that can be made to say:

He sucked
Another guy sucked then got better
Therefore he will be better.

To compare Sanchez rookie year to Mannings is to not even begin to understand QB play.
For every example you can give of a bad player getting better there are 10 of a bad player staying bad.

I put zero emphasis on QB Rating, its the worst stat there is.
Sanchez had 1 good game when he threw 15 times
One bad game where the D and runnning game saved him
And one blah game in a 14 point loss where he did some stat padding to get up to his 180 a game playoff average.

I don't know how those 3 games create excitement, unless you are trying to get excited and thats al you can find.

BTW, if you think rating is a valuable stat, tell me what the rating would be if you exclude the 80 yard pass to the wide open WR on a blown coverage. I mean, that isnt going to happen every 60 passes is it? It skews the numbers right and any college QB can make that throw. Take that one out, and what is your rating? Id guess about 75. So if you value QB rating thats quite a thin line, no?

 

[Deus Irae]

Andy, your thoughts?

He was the worst starting QB in the league last season, with the exception of Russell in Oakland (Yes, he was worse than Stafford and Freeman, who were playing on worse teams) and, arguably, Delhomme (a player who was benched, IR'd and released). You pointing to one game in the playoffs isn't going to change that.

 

[averywhitehall]

He was the worst starting QB in the league last season, with the exception of Russell in Oakland (Yes, he was worse than Stafford and Freeman, who were playing on worse teams) and, arguably, Delhomme (a player who was benched, IR'd and released). You pointing to one game in the playoffs isn't going to change that.

Was he terrible because he was a rookie and went through his rookie growing pains like the majority of rookies do? Or was he terrible because he is not a talented quarterback and as such has no potential?

We're forgetting the guy only started 1 year in college and 1 year in the NFL and his learning curve in his first NFL year was tremendous.

 

[Kontradiction]

I knew this thread would be epic.

 

[efin98]

I knew this thread would be epic.

Probably one of the few things that brought everyone together in agreement

 

[Ring 6]

Was he terrible because he was a rookie and went through his rookie growing pains like the majority of rookies do? Or was he terrible because he is not a talented quarterback and as such has no potential?

We're forgetting the guy only started 1 year in college and 1 year in the NFL and his learning curve in his first NFL year was tremendous.

He was terrible because he was terrible.

As far as guessing whether he will turn good or not, MANY MANY more terrible rookie QBs never get good than do get good.
I don't think the fact that his team had no one else to play at the position puts him any further ahead than a rookie who wasn't good enough to earn a starting job, either.

How much he played in college is just an excuse. You could easily make the argument that only playing in one year caused him to be overrated and misjudged in the draft, like Akili Smith, who seems so far to be a good analogy.

 

[Tunescribe]

Probably one of the few things that brought everyone together in agreement

But you've also got to agree that the Green Beans do, indeed, suck. I mean, overall. They've gotten a bit better on the field, but as people of highly questionable character -- including players, coach, the organization and the fan base -- there is no question they suck. Come on, admit it.

 

[averywhitehall]

Sanchez had a great O-line and great running game, which enabled him to play off play-action passes and dump-offs to Dustin Keller all day long. You're going to tell me he made the plays he had to when the game was on his shoulders in Indy?

Take the whole season and tell me what his passer rating was. He may become a great quarterback, but 2009 certainly wasn't indicative of that. What I saw was a team that was capable of winning games as long as their quarterback did not get in the way. Matt Stafford, on a far worse team, playing fewer games and dealing with injuries, carried his team single-handedly to at least one victory. The same cannot be said of Mark Sanchez in arguably one of the top 3 best rosters on the league in 09.

But aren't the Jets supposed to be a running/defense team? So why would Mark Sanchez have to single handedly carry the Jets to victory?

"arguably one of the top 3 best rosters on the league in 09" <---- But I thought the Jets sucked?

Yes Sanchez took advantage of play-fakes...Because that is what he is supposed to do. The pass to Dustin Keller for a TD in the AFC Championship Game wasn't off of a play fake. "Dump-offs to Dustin Keller all day long." So what you're saying is he can't throw the long ball? Can't throw to the outsides? Hasn't shown any pinpoint accuracy?

 

[Deus Irae]

Was he terrible because he was a rookie and went through his rookie growing pains like the majority of rookies do? Or was he terrible because he is not a talented quarterback and as such has no potential?

We're forgetting the guy only started 1 year in college and 1 year in the NFL and his learning curve in his first NFL year was tremendous.

No offense here, but the "why" is irrelevant to my post, because of what I was responding to. He didn't belong in the NFL last season, and Carroll was right about him.

Now, moving forward, the question will be his ability (or lack thereof) to improve. I've got my doubts about the kid, but time will tell.

 

[Rex Ryan's Gut]

He was the worst starting QB in the league last season, with the exception of Russell in Oakland (Yes, he was worse than Stafford and Freeman, who were playing on worse teams) and, arguably, Delhomme (a player who was benched, IR'd and released). You pointing to one game in the playoffs isn't going to change that.

Three, but who's counting?

 

[averywhitehall]

Please tell me you dont seriously think that tackle statistics are the way to compare DLineman.
And yes, Warren is better than Ellis and it isnt really even close when Warren is healthy.

So how shall I compare them then? So that we will satisfy this argument once and for all?

Jenkins can't stay healthy, and even when he is 'healthy' he is so out of shape he cant play the entire game. Only a blind Jet homer would think that Jenkins is better than Wilfork when you consider the whole story.

Again we go back to this...the only argument Patriots fans have in the Kris Jenkins vs Wilfork debate. The last time both played 16 games (2008) who had the better year? Just asking.

guess I'll start using that. The Patriots are good because of Belichick. Its all coaching and schemes. Since the Jets havent won more games than the Patriots in 10 years, I guess nothing else matters.

Of course talent matters. But my point is when you can plug in players and still be successful then the scheme is shown to be outstanding. We're just talking about kick-returners here, other areas of the NFL might not apply.

What? How is it a contradiction to say they were average because of their good plus their bad?



Not really. He had one good game where he only threw 15 times, one typical Sanchez outing where the running game and D saved him, and 250 yards in a loss. Not exactly impressive. Better than the guy you were afraid to have drop back a month before, sure? But thats not saying a lot.
"Good" isn't defined by how much you played in college. Good is good, bad is bad and excuses are excuses.

He was better than Brady was in the playoffs in 2009. I'll take that. 257 yards in a loss is not impressive for Manning or Brady or Warner. But it is impressive for a rookie. How impressive? Well I'm glad you asked. That is the NFL record for passing yards in a game by a rookie. That is impressive and I don't care how you slice it.

You need to look up the word lethal.
Holmes is a bad #1 or good #2. Edwards doesnt impress me at all, and wouldn't be a starter on a lot of teams. Cotchery is a fine #3. Keller is a dime a dozen TE. Please don't give me the crap that you can judge a TE by how many catches he has, because 90% of that is the QB and how they feel about throwing to the TE.

But you must ask yourself: Am I judging how much talent they have or am I judging how they played with a rookie QB who struggled during his first season (except the playoffs of course)?

Cause if you're going by talent then the Jets receivers have that. If you're going by the numbers they put up last season on a team whose strength was running and defense, and they played with a rookie QB who struggled during his first season (except the playoffs of course)then you might be missing the full picture here. Oh and that line about Edawards not starting on a lot of teams is ridiculous. In fact, it was his vertical threat that allowed the Jets to run the ball even better than they did in their earlier games.

As I said the names have changed the abilities, not so much. The character, a lot.

Oh brother! Lots of teams have character, but they still aren't good football teams.

Question: Are you counting on character issues to sink the Jets?
Another Question: Are the Jets more talented than the Patriots?

You are choosing the rosy side of every single point, and still havent moved my opinion an inch.

Very well...But might it be because you do not have the capacity to have your opinion changed in this manner? With all the years of Jets hate you have inside you, changing your opinion may be the equivalent of convincing Bill Belichick quit his job to coach the Jets.

You can't tell me that the Bengal game is Earth shattering when he threw 15 passes. He had a poor game vs SD, and a blah game vs Indy.
I don't understand how mediocre is exciting.

Not mediocre for a rookie. Name another rookie that played as well as Sanchez in the playoffs in NFL history? You've got to understand my mindset. If Sanchez stepped up and played well when the games matter most (in the playoffs), ESPECIALLY after playing horrid at stretches in the regular season, then why is it unreasonable to expect good things in the future?

I'm going to tell you now that you will never convince me of anything with the argument "He sucked, others sucked before and became good, so he will become good" MANY more that sucked early sucked forever.

If I can't use history against you, then you can't use history against me. He may flop or he may succeed. But he has all the tools to be very successful.

No those losses were team losses. Teams win and teams lose. You still have the same QB. I don't know how throwing him under the bus makes you think your team is better.

I have a few questions for you. In the 31-14 shellacking of the Jets in Gillette Stadium Sanchez threw 5 picks: Were those because of terrible Sanchez throws/decisions/reads or because the Pats defensive secondary is all world? Leigh Bodden had three of his 5 picks that game but is he really that good or did Sanchez just stink that game? Would the Pats even have won that game if not for those 5 picks?

I ask these questions to show this: I have come to the realization that you guys are SO praying for Sanchez to suck next season like he sucked at times last season. Because if he plays well you the Patriots are in trouble. We all know it.

 

[averywhitehall]

He was terrible because he was terrible.

As far as guessing whether he will turn good or not, MANY MANY more terrible rookie QBs never get good than do get good.
I don't think the fact that his team had no one else to play at the position puts him any further ahead than a rookie who wasn't good enough to earn a starting job, either.

How much he played in college is just an excuse. You could easily make the argument that only playing in one year caused him to be overrated and misjudged in the draft, like Akili Smith, who seems so far to be a good analogy.

Great way to avoid answering the question by the way. Can you posit a theory on why he was terrible? Thank you.