Julius Peppers proponents...a Philadelphia story

[Rob0729]

The Colts pay THEIR OWN top dollar. That is the entire issue. Didnt you read the post? Goood players are getting upset when they produce for the team, and instead of getting a raise someone else is brought in from the outside and gets big money.

Whatever! **** off and ***!

 

[Deus Irae]

Yep...... it's been a long and testy offseason already.

 

[eom]

The National Football Post | Diner Morning News: Brown’s Trade DemandAsante is proving to be very expensive for Philly.

where was the peppers mention in that story?

if you wanted to prove to us that sheldon brown is a whiny d-bag, consider your point made.

shouldn't this be in the other forum, though, with all the other sheldon brown posts?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

where was the peppers mention in that story?

if you wanted to prove to us that sheldon brown is a whiny d-bag, consider your point made.

shouldn't this be in the other forum, though, with all the other sheldon brown posts?

Nice avatar.

 

[Mike the Brit]

The National Football Post | Diner Morning News: Brown’s Trade DemandAsante is proving to be very expensive for Philly.

Box, this is a very interesting story that raises a great point.

I'm sensitive to it because I actually think that the Eagles' way of managing the cap is a good strategy. The theory is: extend people early and pay them a really substantial amount of money (guaranteed) so that they are over the threshold of ever needing money again. Let's face it, for most of us, the difference between having $10 million in the bank and $20 million is unimaginable -- we could do anything we reasonably want to with either. But that makes a big difference to the team. So you trade security and certainty for headline cash. And, as the story says, the Eagles feel that they have set up Brown for life.

If that's the system and people know it, what's the objection? I guess that one factor is the agent. He is paid on commission so has a clear interest in maximising the salary/making his client feel dissatisfied. So the arrival of a free agent paid at full market rates is an excuse.

What should the Eagles do?

1. Abandon their sign-them-early policy and accept that they'll go through Deion Branch/Asante Samuel type losses.

2. Keep the sign-them-early policy, use the money to keep as many players as possible in the system, but don't go for high-priced free agents.

3. Keep the sign-them-early policy, sign high-priced free agents and play hard-ball with guys like Brown whose egos need a lot more money when someone plays alongside them for even more.

I'm still inclined towards either 2. or 3.

The Patriots clearly are taking option 1. I don't know if signing Peppers (or Jason Taylor, or whomever) at a high market price will make it more likely that we'll lose Vince or Richard. But it's a reasonable supposition and worth thinking about. (Sorry that this thread has become so abusive.)

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Box, this is a very interesting story that raises a great point.

I'm sensitive to it because I actually think that the Eagles' way of managing the cap is a good strategy. The theory is: extend people early and pay them a really substantial amount of money (guaranteed) so that they are over the threshold of ever needing money again. Let's face it, for most of us, the difference between having $10 million in the bank and $20 million is unimaginable -- we could do anything we reasonably want to with either. But that makes a big difference to the team. So you trade security and certainty for headline cash. And, as the story says, the Eagles feel that they have set up Brown for life.

If that's the system and people know it, what's the objection? I guess that one factor is the agent. He is paid on commission so has a clear interest in maximising the salary/making his client feel dissatisfied. So the arrival of a free agent paid at full market rates is an excuse.

What should the Eagles do?

1. Abandon their sign-them-early policy and accept that they'll go through Deion Branch/Asante Samuel type losses.

2. Keep the sign-them-early policy, use the money to keep as many players as possible in the system, but don't go for high-priced free agents.

3. Keep the sign-them-early policy, sign high-priced free agents and play hard-ball with guys like Brown whose egos need a lot more money when someone plays alongside them for even more.

I'm still inclined towards either 2. or 3.

The Patriots clearly are taking option 1. I don't know if signing Peppers (or Jason Taylor, or whomever) at a high market price will make it more likely that we'll lose Vince or Richard. But it's a reasonable supposition and worth thinking about. (Sorry that this thread has become so abusive.)

The "sign-them-early" approach seems to have an emotional flaw, easily converted to a fissure with the introduction of a high-priced Free Agent. The flaw derives from the market exceeding the extension's value, creating the not unreasonable perception of management taking advantage of a young player's naivete. Even without introducing a high-priced Free Agent, you leave an opening for external manipulation by agents, friends, family, sycophant hanger ons, someone will poke at the flaw and introduce a sour note into the relationship between team and player. Where it goes from there is anyone's guess.

 

[Mike the Brit]

The "sign-them-early" approach seems to have an emotional flaw, easily converted to a fissure with the introduction of a high-priced Free Agent. The flaw derives from the market exceeding the extension's value, creating the not unreasonable perception of management taking advantage of a young player's naivete. Even without introducing a high-priced Free Agent, you leave an opening for external manipulation by agents, friends, family, sycophant hanger ons, someone will poke at the flaw and introduce a sour note into the relationship between team and player. Where it goes from there is anyone's guess.

All true. But we need to compare alternatives.

Isn't there a fissure in a system which keeps a young player for five years on a rookie contract, knowing that, well paid as he is by most standards, if it all ended tomorrow (as it easily could) he would not have much to fall back on? Moreover, he will be playing alongside much less valuable players who are being paid a lot more (think Ed Reid going to the Pro Bowl on 250K while Kyle Boller was being paid ten times as much). That leads to hold-outs and resentment too.

 

[eom]

this whole thing is a ridiculous extrapolation of some individual ungrateful piece of ****.

sheldon brown does not represent the world.

I'm sure I've asked this before, but what happened when the pats signed other free agents in the past?

 

[Deus Irae]

this whole thing is a ridiculous extrapolation of some individual ungrateful piece of ****.

sheldon brown does not represent the world.

I'm sure I've asked this before, but what happened when the pats signed other free agents in the past?

The Patriots have had these problems in the past, albeit under different circumstances. Seymour and Branch come quickly to mind.

 

[eom]

what's the similarity w/branch?

 

[Deus Irae]

what's the similarity w/branch?

It's players going public with unhappiness, usually about the money. It happens pretty much no matter what teams you may talk about.

 

[eom]

yeah, that's not really a similarity.
or, I guess it may be a similarity, but not a relevant one.

he's trying to make the case that in his own imagination the entire team disintegrates because the pats sign an outsider and the players all get jealous.

like they all did when they signed adalius, or moss, I guess.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

yeah, that's not really a similarity.
or, I guess it may be a similarity, but not a relevant one.

he's trying to make the case that in his own imagination the entire team disintegrates because the pats sign an outsider and the players all get jealous.

like they all did when they signed adalius, or moss, I guess.

Miguel's UNOFFICIAL 2008 Patriots Salary Cap Footnotes and Documentation Page

Adalius Thomas - Peter King reported that "the breakdown, according to Management Council documents obtained Sunday night
Signing bonus: $12 million in 2007.
Option bonus: $8 million payable in 2008, applied for cap reasons in equal $2 million increments in 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011.
Salaries: $900,000 in '07, $900,000 in '08, $1.9 million in '09, $4.9 million in '10 and $5.9 million in '11.
Workout bonuses: $107,000 annually if he participates in the Patriots' offseason workout program in Foxboro.
Cap numbers: In succession, beginning this year, $3.4 million, $5.4 million, $6.4 million, $9.4 million, $10.4 million.

Adalious got a very nice signing bonus, but he was on a one year prove it contract with the option bonus and a backloaded contract. If Peppers wants to sign his franchise tender, get himself traded to NE and sign a similar contract, then we're good.

Miguel's UNOFFICIAL 2008 Patriots Salary Cap Footnotes and Documentation Page

Randy Moss - John Tomase reported in the Boston Herald's Point After blog - "Randy Moss put his money where his mouth is to come to New England. The wideout accepted a one-year deal worth $3 million, with $2 million in earned incentives. He had been due to make $9.75 million this year and $11.25 million next year, but tore up that deal."
May 3, 2007 update On 5/3/2007 the Boston Globe's Mike Reiss reported in his blog that "WR Randy Moss's base salary for 2007 is for $2.5 million. He has a $500,000 roster bonus as part of the deal. There are $1.5 million in escalators/incentives in the contract."
November 9, 2007 update NFL.Com reported that "Moss earned $350,000 once he reached 45 catches for the season and another $350,000 once he reached 55 catches, a mark he surpassed during Sunday’s 24-20 win over the Indianapolis Colts. Moss will earn another $350,000 once he reaches 65 catches, another $350,000 for 75 catches, and a final $350,000 for 85 catches.Additionally, should Moss be voted to the Pro Bowl -– and for a receiver who now leads the NFL in receiving yards and receiving touchdowns, that would seem a lock –- he will earn another $250,000."
December 1, 2007 update According to the USAToday NFL player salary database Moss earned $1,560 in offseason workout bonus money.
March, 2008 update Tim DiPiero, the agent for Randy Moss, emailed the following to some members of the media - "“I am pleased to confirm that Randy Moss has signed a three year contract with the New England Patriots. The contract calls for a total payout of $27 million with $15 million guaranteed, $12 million of which is in the form of a signing bonus. Randy is grateful to Mr. Kraft, Coach Belichick and Scott Pioli for agreeing to the terms of this contract. Randy was serious about wanting to stay. Because of Randy’s record-breaking year, the interest in him was very high. Randy took less than he could have to rejoin his teammates.”
March 4, 2008 update Mike Reiss blogged on 3/4 - "Here are some more details on Randy Moss's contract with the Patriots:"
Base salaries:
2008: $1.9 million
2009: $6.4 million
2010: $6.4 million

Salary cap charges:
2008: $6 million
2009: $10.5 million
2010: $10.5 million

March 2, 2009 update Mike Reiss blogged om March 2nd that the "Patriots took $1.5 million of what Moss was to earn in 2009 and guaranteed that figure by turning it into a bonus. That freed up about $750,000 on the 2009 salary cap, and will increase Moss's salary cap charge in 2010."

If Julius Peppers wants to sign his franchise tender, ask for a trade to NE, and will sign a new contract for 31% to 46% of what he was scheduled to make on his first year alone, I'm sure he'll be welcomed with open arms.

The reality of Free Agency is understood by most players, big names get big money, what happened in Philly is they gave their kids early contract renewals where the kids gave the team a discount for the early renewal - then the team throws a huge contract at Samuel. Brown had 51 TT, 1 sack, 1 FF, 1 int. Asante had 35 TT, 4 int. Brown makes one less big play and 16 more tackles, and that's not counting any other stat like PBU, QBH, etc. and he's getting considerably less. If he was coming up for another contract in a year or two he might not squawk, but he's locked up long term at a discount and it rankles.

BB has talked about the care you need to have with contracts and how they can disrupt a lockerroom if you're not careful. With Wilfork, Seymour, Mankins, Kaczur, Neal, Green, etc. coming up for a new contract, paying big money to Peppers is going to have a major impact on the team. There has already been remarks made about the Vrabel trade, and while they did not specifically address it, it's been bandyed about in the media about it being a cap move, so paying big money to someone from outside after dumping a team favorite over the cap...is very risky.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

All true. But we need to compare alternatives.

Isn't there a fissure in a system which keeps a young player for five years on a rookie contract, knowing that, well paid as he is by most standards, if it all ended tomorrow (as it easily could) he would not have much to fall back on? Moreover, he will be playing alongside much less valuable players who are being paid a lot more (think Ed Reid going to the Pro Bowl on 250K while Kyle Boller was being paid ten times as much). That leads to hold-outs and resentment too.

If the team is consistent in letting rookie contracts run their course, then most players aren't going to complain - Branch claimed the team had strong-armed him into his rookie deal, which I believe included a five year contract before the CBA put limits on the deals, so he was apparently harboring a resentment and was trying to use his elevated stock to force a new deal. NE is consistent, Wilfork is on his rookie deal and we know he is more critical to the team than Branch in his day. Seymour, with his multiple Pro Bowls and Super Bowls was able to pressure the team into an early contract extension, but he also gave them something they wanted with the way his final year was managed back then. Philly introduced a sour note with their Asante deal. :confused2:

 

[Rob0729]

If the team is consistent in letting rookie contracts run their course, then most players aren't going to complain - Branch claimed the team had strong-armed him into his rookie deal, which I believe included a five year contract before the CBA put limits on the deals, so he was apparently harboring a resentment and was trying to use his elevated stock to force a new deal. NE is consistent, Wilfork is on his rookie deal and we know he is more critical to the team than Branch in his day. Seymour, with his multiple Pro Bowls and Super Bowls was able to pressure the team into an early contract extension, but he also gave them something they wanted with the way his final year was managed back then. Philly introduced a sour note with their Asante deal. :confused2:

I don't think Seymour pressured to get a deal done early. The Pats standard operating proceedure is to try to get a deal done with players they want to retain the offseason before their final season of their current contract. That is what they did with Seymour. That is what they are trying to do with Wilfork. They did it with Warren. They even tried to do it with Branch and Samuel. In fact, the Pats successfully got Seymour to agree to play out the terms of his existing deal. That demand by the Patriots is the reason why the negotiations with Branch broke down.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't think Seymour pressured to get a deal done early. The Pats standard operating proceedure is to try to get a deal done with players they want to retain the offseason before their final season of their current contract. That is what they did with Seymour. That is what they are trying to do with Wilfork. They did it with Warren. They even tried to do it with Branch and Samuel. In fact, the Pats successfully got Seymour to agree to play out the terms of his existing deal. That demand by the Patriots is the reason why the negotiations with Branch broke down.

Seymour was a hold out.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I don't think Seymour pressured to get a deal done early. The Pats standard operating proceedure is to try to get a deal done with players they want to retain the offseason before their final season of their current contract. That is what they did with Seymour. That is what they are trying to do with Wilfork. They did it with Warren. They even tried to do it with Branch and Samuel. In fact, the Pats successfully got Seymour to agree to play out the terms of his existing deal. That demand by the Patriots is the reason why the negotiations with Branch broke down.

It was the year before the offseason before his final season that Seymour held out of camp. And he had been letting his system unhappiness be known, quietly as is his way, for some time prior to that. And the team had been engaged in an effort to get him to see the benefit of becoming a hallmark player in this market (coaxed him to accompany Tedy to Fenway for the first pitch in 2005). He got a chunk of money from his 6 year rookie deal pushed up into his 5th year in exchange for an agreement that he would report to camp in year 5 and they would get a deal done before the following year 6 season. That deal had to wait until mid camp the following season because of the 12 month rule, but it did so with nary a sound from Richard. When it did get done it was a compromise deal that gave him $10M per in bragging rights but just for 3 years while it allowed the team to spread that over 4 years because it was an extension that retained year 6 of that rookie deal and not a brand new deal.

Warren was signed through 2008 when he agreed to a very team friendly 5 year extension through 2013 after 2006. Brady had been similarly extended with 2 years remaining on his 2002 deal. They try to do that with guys who are both outperforming existing deals and willing (up front) to discount their extensions to be team friendly without having to be talked into it.

Some guys are born disguntled. Branch and Asante both fell into that I been dissed category. They didn't appreciate being drafted where they were, nor did they realisticly appreciate what the team provided them in the way of development and opportunity (we've already seen an injury prone Branch struggle to appear valuable absent a HOF presence like Brady on his roster, and Asante isn't exactly viewed by Eagles fans one year in as the crown jewel Andy Reid purported him to be). This team will attempt to work with anyone who is holding up his end on the field while remaining willing to work with them off it to find the manageable way to address the need of both entities craft a deal that works for the player while allowing the team to remain flexible and competitive.

Branch wanted his deal after his superbowl MVP, 2 years early, but he also wanted top dollar. Asante wanted top dollar coming off a lackluster 3rd season in what until then had been a solid if unspectactuar young career... BB fired a warning shot across the bow of each player to underscore his willingness to replace them over value. Almost snagged the productive and durable Derek Mason for 5 years and $20M total and made a play for the affordably competent DeShea Townsend at $2.5M to that end. Branch and Samuel took that as adding insult to injury and it just hardened their resolve to move on to some team who would pay them top dollar. Branch even took to shooing off potential replacements mid holdout with the admonishment you won't get your money there... Oddly, Randy and AD and Wes did, in what turned out to be easy signings because those players were willing to either prove it or cooperate on team friendly deals.

Wilfork was sounding a tad concerned back in February. Recently he sounds like a guy who has a (parameters) deal in place that accommodates both his and the teams needs. Which may include having to wait until next offseason to get it done (without becoming insulted) if the team is to be sufficiently competitive this season. Guys who play ball with the organization here and don't equate respect solely with $$$ also see the lions share of off the field opportunities, and Vince - with that big personality - is someone who can make the most of those. I'm sure Mr. Kraft, whom he clearly loves, has talked that aspect of his career up with Vince. Like Brady and Seymour he will likely make the bonding trek to Israel with the boss man soon... I'll bet the boss tried to talk to Branch and Asante about long term career goals but both were entirely focused on short term gain. Ty Law syndrome.

 

[Rob0729]

Seymour was a hold out.

The year before, not the year he got a deal. He got thrown a modest bonus to come back in. The year he got a deal, he didn't force the issue. Maybe I misunderstood what Box was saying, but it seemed like he/she said that Seymour forced the extension. He didn't do that at least the year he got it. he did pressure the Pats to get a bonus the year before though. But for the sake of argument, I will conceed I am wrong since you can definitely make the strong argument that the year before affected the year he got the deal and I may have misunderstood what Box was saying.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

BB has talked about the care you need to have with contracts and how they can disrupt a lockerroom if you're not careful. With Wilfork, Seymour, Mankins, Kaczur, Neal, Green, etc. coming up for a new contract, paying big money to Peppers is going to have a major impact on the team. There has already been remarks made about the Vrabel trade, and while they did not specifically address it, it's been bandyed about in the media about it being a cap move, so paying big money to someone from outside after dumping a team favorite over the cap...is very risky.

That's why Tedy is still here and Rodney got to see his entire deal (and after taking a paycut once due to injury was not asked to again) and Troy got to play until he knew he couldn't and Vrabel got traded to a team (who needs him and can't harm us in the forseeable future even with Pioli and Cassel) who would pay out his last contract year roster bonus and all... Generally speaking, guys who go along get along here. Even what they did with Rosie is instructive. I'm sure players weren't happy to see him go. But then he didn't catch on anywhere else. Bill knew Rosie still believed he could play, and Bill knew he still could play...a little. So he brought him back to prove while he could do that it was all he could do. Rosie is now happily working on getting into media. And the team knows once again BB was right. He worked at trading down for the ILB he wanted and needed because he wanted that guy coming in on a deal that would not cause ripples in an accomplished veteran locker room because he'd have to earn most of his money.

Pioli often tried to remind fans here too that teams simply cannot have a top 3 or even top 5 player at every position. They set unit budgets and adhere to them. Having two OLB at even $8M each would be very tough to maintain on a team that already has three first rounders anchoring the front 3 in a 3-4 and a DROY inside who may have makeable escalators galore in his deal.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

That's why Tedy is still here and Rodney got to see his entire deal (and after taking a paycut once due to injury was not asked to again) and Troy got to play until he knew he couldn't and Vrabel got traded to a team (who needs him and can't harm us in the forseeable future even with Pioli and Cassel) who would pay out his last contract year roster bonus and all... Generally speaking, guys who go along get along here. Even what they did with Rosie is instructive. I'm sure players weren't happy to see him go. But then he didn't catch on anywhere else. Bill knew Rosie still believed he could play, and Bill knew he still could play...a little. So he brought him back to prove while he could do that it was all he could do. Rosie is now happily working on getting into media. And the team knows once again BB was right. He worked at trading down for the ILB he wanted and needed because he wanted that guy coming in on a deal that would not cause ripples in an accomplished veteran locker room because he'd have to earn most of his money.

Pioli often tried to remind fans here too that teams simply cannot have a top 3 or even top 5 player at every position. They set unit budgets and adhere to them. Having two OLB at even $8M each would be very tough to maintain on a team that already has three first rounders anchoring the front 3 in a 3-4 and a DROY inside who may have makeable escalators galore in his deal.

We be jammin'. :singing: