Double up on OLB early?

[14thDragon]

I expect our choices by draft day will be different than now. Perhaps the positions we want will not be.
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BOTTOM LINE
As I have said earlier, I would be quite happy choosing English AND Sintim, if Laurinitis and Maualuga were found wanting, or even if we pciked on of them. For example, English, Laurinitis, Chung, and Sintim would make a fine Day One for me. But, again, the key is that we get help at these positions, not the individual players who get chosen.

I disagree. ONe in the ranking of importance of holes needing some filling and in the need to look at individule talent. Now I would agree, our poor best, we are going to not have the trained eye to evaluate the guys so some things are just judgment calls and come draft day, I am sure we will all line up and sing the company song.

I also disagree on the level of need at the ILB spot, I think that thrid spot is somewhere around 5-6 on my needs list. So I would be disappointed in ILB taken high. I understand your point about not dismissing talent, but I figure you have to make some choices, not every spot can be manned by 1st day talent. Some spots are going to be manned by guys taken later, you draft them to play a role, a role that hides the weakness and plays to thier strengths. My personal opinion, 2-down linebackers are a day two job. Fullback, day-two job. Blocking Tight-End, day two job. You pass on superioir ranked talent to fill those roles.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

BOTTOM LINE
But, again, the key is that we get help at these positions, not the individual players who get chosen.

If that were the key, then all BB needs to do is grab Kiper's rankings and draft the highest rated ILB left on the list - Bob Kraft could save a ton of money on scouting.

 

[VJCPatriot]

We would have to package #58 with 23 to move up and get Maualuga, and hope that Barwin is still there at #34.

I would love to see that, and isn't that what draft currency (picks) is for !!

I'm not moving up for Mauluga. The guy has been overhyped. His senior season was worse than his junior season and he has shown very little leading up to the combine. There's a reason why his stock has dropped. He might be a very good fit for a 4-3 MLB, but the Pats run a 3-4 and Rey's ability to handle OL and get off blocks is questionable.

INSIDE LINEBACKER
For now, I am not ready to believe that all the scouts are all wrong about the only two ILB's rated in the top 50. Why should we totally disregard what almost all the analysts are indicating with regard to the ILB position? There are only two that have been thought of as top 50 picks: Maualuga and Laurinitis.

Bottom line, it doesn't matter where they are ranked. It matters how good of a fit they are for the Pats defense. Both of these players weaknesses is that they get eaten up by offensive linemen and struggle to get off blocks. How can they possibly be expected to step in as a 3-4 SILB? Additonally runstopping SILB is NOT a severe need. These guys would have to beat out Guyton for playing time. Can they really do that their rookie season? Doubtful. We can draft a decent run stuffing ILB to develop on day 2. The need just isn't that great.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I note you are "drafting a position," and you are focusing on the two highest rated players "at that position" as ranked by the popular draftnik sites and pundit mocks.
-- What does Maualuga do well that fits within the NE defensive scheme?
-- Is that something worth first round consideration?
-- What does Laurinaitis do well that fits within the NE defefensive scheme?
-- Is that something worth first round consideration?

Seriously, these are two of the most prominent LBs in the nation for fans and pundits, but other than people telling me how famous they are or what a hitter Maualuga is I don't see how they fit or help the Patriots.
-- You want to shrug off Maualuga getting into off-field and alcohol related scrapes, as well as the maturity concerns - well show me where he and Meriweather are similar cases - Brandon was the last kid with character question marks to be drafted in round one, if there are parallels I'd like to know what they are.
-- When I pointed out how similar Laurinaitis was to Mayo and Guyton, you started telling me how BB could use that to be creative - well do it yourself, show us how the pair of Mayo and Laurinaitis inside closes the run lanes and gets the job done.

Why are the top two pundit/draftnik ranked ILBs good fits for NE when that is often the last place we'd be looking?

Box,

I'll take a stab at that question. Maverick, said a modern ILB pair like the Pats used to have in their SB days was Tedy and Phife. I agree wholeheartedly, as he explained. Both could drop into coverage but Phife was better at it than Tedy. But Tedy got his fair share of INTs and PDs too.

Both were a little undersized against the run.

But Tedy was an interior pass rushing terror. He held the NCAA all time record for sacks as a Defensive Tackle, yes... as a penetrating 3 technique DT.

Willie and Vrabes rushed from the outside but Tedy's interior rush guaranteed that the QB seldom stepped up into a non existent pocket, and let those guys harmlessly go by his back.

And oh yes, for the third-and-one, and fourth-and-one plays, they brought in specialist, TJ. If you remember TJ was highly miffed at being relegated to part time play. But that was what the GOAT coach, BB, did as a Coach.

Today the Pats run Defense was not poor at all. The best 3-4 Defensive line insures that. End of Story for stuffing the run.

The pass rush and pass coverage was poor. Even playing rookies at both ILB positions. They are not rookies anymore.

What appears to be missing is pass coverage and interior pocket collapsing pass rushing. As well as OLB pass rushing, but that is another subject.

Many have knocked Lauranitis for not standing up a Guard, but who has the most INTs of any ILB? Who has the most interior blitzing sacks? Who has very good instincts and smarts? Who is a solid citizen, coach's son, film room rat, and Belichick type player?

So draft Barwin and Lauranitis and oh yes, draft Brinkly for part time duty in the fourth or fifth round. If you really feel a need for a guy to stand up Guards, for a few plays a game. (I'd actually prefer Sintim if he slips to the end of the second or into the third, but on second thought Ron Brace instead.)

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Box,

I'll take a stab at that question. Maverick, said a modern ILB pair like the Pats used to have in their SB days was Tedy and Phife. I agree wholeheartedly, as he explained. Both could drop into coverage but Phife was better at it than Tedy. But Tedy got his fair share of INTs and PDs too.

Both were a little undersized against the run.

But Tedy was an interior pass rushing terror. He held the NCAA all time record for sacks as a Defensive Tackle, yes... as a penetrating 3 technique DT.

Willie and Vrabes rushed from the outside but Tedy's interior rush guaranteed that the QB seldom stepped up into a non existent pocket, and let those guys harmlessly go by his back.

And oh yes, for the third-and-one, and fourth-and-one plays, they brought in specialist, TJ. If you remember TJ was highly miffed at being relegated to part time play. But that was what the GOAT coach, BB, did as a Coach.

Today the Pats run Defense was not poor at all. The best 3-4 Defensive line insures that. End of Story for stuffing the run.

The pass rush and pass coverage was poor. Even playing rookies at both ILB positions. They are not rookies anymore.

What appears to be missing is pass coverage and interior pocket collapsing pass rushing. As well as OLB pass rushing, but that is another subject.

Many have knocked Lauranitis for not standing up a Guard, but who has the most INTs of any ILB? Who has the most interior blitzing sacks? Who has very good instincts and smarts? Who is a solid citizen, coach's son, film room rat, and Belichick type player?

So draft Barwin and Lauranitis and oh yes, draft Brinkly for part time duty in the fourth or fifth round. If you really feel a need for a guy to stand up Guards, for a few plays a game. (I'd actually prefer Sintim if he slips to the end of the second or into the third, but on second thought Ron Brace instead.)

Guyton was doing a pretty good job as a pass rusher. My own memories had Tedy and TJ getting the majority of the reps with Roman used on Passing downs. It could be that Mayo, Guyton, and Ruud are heading in that direction, but we won't get a better handle on this before Training Camp.

Your preference for Laurinaitis is at least more sane then the Maualuga lust, but I don't see what good he does for the team. NE already has similar Linebackers and using a pick that high on a player who is less athletic then those already on the roster makes little sense. There are similar players later in the draft who are better values then a first or early second for a Laurinaitis.

Taking a pass rusher for OLB high makes sense, taking a finesse ILB to pair inside with Mayo has fail written all over it.

 

[mgteich]

Aren't my posts long enough?

Obviously the important thing for the PATRIOTS is get the right player. And the patriots are one of the few teams that pays for its own evaluations instead using pooled information.

The important thing TO ME is trying to evaluate our draft is to evaluate what positions are important to draft. I do not not fee personally qualified to make the judgements you do. I do not feel qualified to look at all the information available and make the judgment which of the linebackers would help us most. That judgement is for Belichick.

For example, a recent poster indicated that ILB was 5th or so on his priority list of patriots needs. That kind of issue is more interesting TO ME than which ILB is most valuable.

I hope that I have made myslf more clear.

If that were the key, then all BB needs to do is grab Kiper's rankings and draft the highest rated ILB left on the list - Bob Kraft could save a ton of money on scouting.

 

[mgteich]

I congratulate you on being able to evaluate information better than all the thousands of organizations out there evaluating players.

It doesn't matter where a player is ranked? Be serious! Perhaps brinkly sshould be drafted at 23. After all, some here think he is the best fit at ILB, and we shouldn't care where a player is ranked.

And perhaps we should poll posters on how we think a player will fit into patriots schemes THAT WILL BE DEVELOPED ONCE WE HAVE OUR PLAYER IN TRAINING CAMP.

I believe that we posters are in a reasonable position to judge the needs of the team. I don't think we are in a great position to understand how valuable or not valuable a particular player would be to the team, at least I don't have that skill set to a degree better than Gosselin, Shechter, Reiss and the various scouting services.

And just BTW, I don't know and cannot judge how high Belichick might move for an ILB or for a particualr ILB. It depends on how highly Belichick values Guyton and his future. If Guyotn is valued highly enough, then it is unlikely that we will draft an ILB on Day One at all.

I'm not moving up for Mauluga. The guy has been overhyped. His senior season was worse than his junior season and he has shown very little leading up to the combine. There's a reason why his stock has dropped. He might be a very good fit for a 4-3 MLB, but the Pats run a 3-4 and Rey's ability to handle OL and get off blocks is questionable.



Bottom line, it doesn't matter where they are ranked. It matters how good of a fit they are for the Pats defense. Both of these players weaknesses is that they get eaten up by offensive linemen and struggle to get off blocks. How can they possibly be expected to step in as a 3-4 SILB? Additonally runstopping SILB is NOT a severe need. These guys would have to beat out Guyton for playing time. Can they really do that their rookie season? Doubtful. We can draft a decent run stuffing ILB to develop on day 2. The need just isn't that great.

 

[cstjohn17]

Guyton was doing a pretty good job as a pass rusher. My own memories had Tedy and TJ getting the majority of the reps with Roman used on Passing downs. It could be that Mayo, Guyton, and Ruud are heading in that direction, but we won't get a better handle on this before Training Camp.

All of the Patriot OLBs did a pretty good job last year, that is the problem.

When Bruschi, TJ and Phifer were in a rotation Bruschi was still a very accomplished inside blitzer, and on the outside they had Colvin/McGinest/Vrabel all in their prime.

Mayo can pick up the slack of an inside blitzer (as can Thomas when he shifts inside). OLB is the question mark. At OLB we have depth a mile long but 1 inch deep, lots of bodies but not much talent.

If Jason Taylor is signed or if somehow they get Peppers* then things change. As of right now, I expect OLB to be a priority and if the board drops nicely maybe take two early. Would anyone really be upset if Reed, TBC, Ruud, Alexander, Woods or Bruschi didn't make the team?

I see Thomas & Mayo as the only mortal locks with Guyton and Crable** the next tier behind. All other spots are up for grabs.

Even if they went OLB, OLB I don't see it as the end of the world. Better than TE, G or other positions that leave you stunned and in a daze for weeks after.

*Short of trading Seymour I don't see how that will happen.
** Only because he was a high draft pick last year.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

All of the Patriot OLBs did a pretty good job last year, that is the problem.

Incorrect IMHO, Adalius was getting to the QB, but Vrabes, for whatever reason, was struggling. Woods didn't seem to be rushing much when he was in. Guyton was an ILB who was forced into emergency OLB reps - from ILB he was getting pressure on the QB. Redd played emergency and garbage reps. We both agree pressure off the edge needs to improve this season, TBC may be part of BB's attempt to get some, we'll see what the kids can do in their sophomore seasons.

Would anyone really be upset if Reed, TBC, Ruud, Alexander, Woods or Bruschi didn't make the team?

Woods and one of either Redd or Ruud would disappoint me a great deal, development time means they need the time to develop - if none of them have made any progress from last season then yes, I'd be upset and wonder what's going on.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Aren't my posts long enough?

Obviously the important thing for the PATRIOTS is get the right player. And the patriots are one of the few teams that pays for its own evaluations instead using pooled information.

The important thing TO ME is trying to evaluate our draft is to evaluate what positions are important to draft. I do not not fee personally qualified to make the judgements you do. I do not feel qualified to look at all the information available and make the judgment which of the linebackers would help us most. That judgement is for Belichick.

For example, a recent poster indicated that ILB was 5th or so on his priority list of patriots needs. That kind of issue is more interesting TO ME than which ILB is most valuable.

I hope that I have made myslf more clear.

Come now, you spend as much time trying to figure out which player is best when you put together your "rosters."