The Official 'Trade Brady' Debate Thread - Do Not Start Another One

[scout]

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/186703-official-trade-brady-debate-thread-do-not-start-another-one-page3.html#post1179363

It didn't take long to find one.

I didn't see it, what page and who wrote it.

 

[Lifer]

Tom who???

 

[Synovia]

10 posts? Unless other threads I have posted in have rolled into this thread, I have only posted 3-4 times in this thread.

Besides, this thread is getting dangerously close to 1,000 threads. So assuming that there are 250 posts pointing out how stupid the other posts are, there are still about 650 posts of stupidity. That is a lot of stupidity.

Yeah, and thanks for continuing with the stupidity, instead of the topic.

 

[JSn]

I think as regards entertainment value, sales, and marketing, Brady needs to come back to the Pats.

As regards football, if trading him would drastically alter the defense for the better and we maintain a solid QB with years in the system, low wear-and-tear, and 5 years younger... I don't see how it's crazy to consider it.

The stupidity of this thread is related to the numerous people who apply no logic to their thinking as to why you would or would not trade either one.

We could trade one or both, keep one or both. Hard to tell, though trade Cassel and keep Brady seems more likely, I think healthy discussion on what-if's is the PURPOSE of a message board. Otherwise we need not discuss any single event that has yet to unfold. Discussions on the future seem not to be safe here...

 

[BradyFTW!]

1000 or bust!

If that doesn't tank it, someone's going to have to invoke Godwin's law or something.

 

[PatriotsReign]

I myself would never contribute to a thread this bad....

 

[aluminum seats]

EXACTLY!!! Now you're getting it!

Of course, opinions are what this board is all about! We just don't need people attempting to pretend to be scouts and personnel directors.

But that's what the majority of a sports board is, typically--what would you do? kind of stuff.

 

[aluminum seats]

I think as regards entertainment value, sales, and marketing, Brady needs to come back to the Pats.

As regards football, if trading him would drastically alter the defense for the better and we maintain a solid QB with years in the system, low wear-and-tear, and 5 years younger... I don't see how it's crazy to consider it.

The stupidity of this thread is related to the numerous people who apply no logic to their thinking as to why you would or would not trade either one.

We could trade one or both, keep one or both. Hard to tell, though trade Cassel and keep Brady seems more likely, I think healthy discussion on what-if's is the PURPOSE of a message board. Otherwise we need not discuss any single event that has yet to unfold. Discussions on the future seem not to be safe here...

Good stuff. There has developed at least one aspect that would make me welcome a Brady trade.....the sound of the anti-discussion types' here heads simultaneously exploding.

 

[Synovia]

Good stuff. There has developed at least one aspect that would make me welcome a Brady trade.....the sound of the anti-discussion types' here heads simultaneously exploding.

Yeah, seriously.


If you don't want to discuss it, don't Stay out of the thread. Why do people always feel the need to decide what other people can and can't do?

 

[PatriotsReign]

Yeah, and thanks for continuing with the stupidity, instead of the topic.

Although Synovia is new here, he's not shy about trying to teach our members how to stick to subject matter.

Rookies these days!

 

[BradyManny]

I think as regards entertainment value, sales, and marketing, Brady needs to come back to the Pats.

As regards football, if trading him would drastically alter the defense for the better and we maintain a solid QB with years in the system, low wear-and-tear, and 5 years younger... I don't see how it's crazy to consider it.

It's absurd bordering on offensive that you think this is logical. I'm not trying to pick on you, I reiterate I think you are a good poster and a great contributor here. But your line of thinking here is tremendously flawed, and its annoying that you and others persist with it.

Please fill out this questionnaire so I can try and wrap my brain around your "logic":

1) If you were to trade Brady, when would you do it? [Understand that he is currently untradeable since he's in the midst of rehab.]
2a) Would you say you were "selling high" or "selling low" by trading Brady coming off an ACL injury?
2b) Would you say you were "selling high" or "selling low" by trading Cassel right now?
2c) Who gets you more in trade right now, Brady or Cassel? Once healthy, how much more does Brady get you in trade?

If somehow you've gotten by #1 & #2 and still think trading Brady is a possibility, please proceed to #3.


3) Assuming you somehow pull off a trade of Brady, and I still don't understand when this could possible unfold, what do you trade him for? How many draft picks do you get?
4) Hypothetically, take as many picks as you think you could trade him for, and tell me how you would use it in this year's 2009 draft, just for the sake of this argument. IE, find me 3 players in the 2009 draft that would dramatically upgrade this defense, fit into the Pats system, contribute sooner rather than later, and would be considered "stud" or "franchise" type players.
5) Tell me how many positions on this defense can be upgraded. [Remind yourself we may have as many as 6 picks in the top 100 come April WITHOUT trading Brady]
6) If you were to ship Brady for picks, how long would it take before these picks turned into studs that transformed your defense? How long will the defense rebuilding project take?

If you still have reached this point and think its good value to trade our best player, then persist...


7) Over the next two years, with a healthy Brady and the current defense, do the Patriots compete for a championship?
8) Over the next two years, with Matt Cassel and the current defense, do the Patriots compete for a championship?
9) Randy Moss is under contract for two more years. Without Randy Moss, does this offense, quarterback'd by Matt Cassel, even with an improved defense, compete for a championship?
10) If both are healthy, who would you rather have QB the team, Brady or Cassel?
11) Is not competing for championships the next two seasons worth potentially competing for championships in a few seasons?

 

[aluminum seats]

It's absurd bordering on offensive that you think this is logical. I'm not trying to pick on you, I reiterate I think you are a good poster and a great contributor here. But your line of thinking here is tremendously flawed, and its annoying that you and others persist with it.

Please fill out this questionnaire so I can try and wrap my brain around your "logic":

1) If you were to trade Brady, when would you do it? [Understand that he is currently untradeable since he's in the midst of rehab.]
2a) Would you say you were "selling high" or "selling low" by trading Brady coming off an ACL injury?
2b) Would you say you were "selling high" or "selling low" by trading Cassel right now?
2c) Who gets you more in trade right now, Brady or Cassel? Once healthy, how much more does Brady get you in trade?

If somehow you've gotten by #1 & #2 and still think trading Brady is a possibility, please proceed to #3.


3) Assuming you somehow pull off a trade of Brady, and I still don't understand when this could possible unfold, what do you trade him for? How many draft picks do you get?
4) Hypothetically, take as many picks as you think you could trade him for, and tell me how you would use it in this year's 2009 draft, just for the sake of this argument. IE, find me 3 players in the 2009 draft that would dramatically upgrade this defense, fit into the Pats system, contribute sooner rather than later, and would be considered "stud" or "franchise" type players.
5) Tell me how many positions on this defense can be upgraded. [Remind yourself we may have as many as 6 picks in the top 100 come April WITHOUT trading Brady]
6) If you were to ship Brady for picks, how long would it take before these picks turned into studs that transformed your defense? How long will the defense rebuilding project take?

If you still have reached this point and think its good value to trade our best player, then persist...


7) Over the next two years, with a healthy Brady and the current defense, do the Patriots compete for a championship?
8) Over the next two years, with Matt Cassel and the current defense, do the Patriots compete for a championship?
9) Randy Moss is under contract for two more years. Without Randy Moss, does this offense, quarterback'd by Matt Cassel, even with an improved defense, compete for a championship?
10) If both are healthy, who would you rather have QB the team, Brady or Cassel?
11) Is not competing for championships the next two seasons worth potentially competing for championships in a few seasons?

I think the pro-discussion posters here would agree that we appreciate the time you took to contribute. What's funny is that your long litany of questions gets to the actual DISCUSSION we've all been talking about the whole time anyway!

Obviously 11 questions would be too unruly, so you should unpack all of this a bit. I'll address 2a) and ask you--I assume you think the Pats would be selling low? Should they have shopped him before the start of this season?

 

[Lifer]

No No No No No No No No No No No No No

We arent trading Brady. We shouldnt trade Brady.

Put a sock in it already

 

[Joker]

heh...what a nutty thread

 

[ScottieC]

heh...what a nutty thread

936, 1000 and we end this crap.

 

[JSn]

If you still have reached this point and think its good value to trade our best player, then persist...

Here is the heart of the matter. Is he still going to be TFB? It would be easy for him, his agent, and other teams to think so, while Bill sees something otherwise. That is the scenario in which you get what you can before the dirty laundry gets hung out in public. And the upside is it would be invisible for a year and called an adjustment period.

I don't "want" the Pats to trade Brady. I don't even "expect" they will. But I think it's enjoyable (in places other than this forum) to talk about it. Most of you guys sound like my father-in-law. We always just let him rant and rave about whatever because he "is always right" and everyone else is stupid.

Luckily, when he's clearly proven wrong, we don't rub his nose in it (tempting as it is). And so, if the screamers end up being wrong, I won't gloat... much. Mainly because I'll be bummed about it.

The thing is, when we lost to the Jets, it was because the D failed. When we lost the SB it was because the D failed. Two season changing losses because of D play, not QB play. I've heard it hear a million times that 18-1 is worthless without a Lombardi. Well, since 2004, there hasn't been a Lombardi, (not that we haven't been dominant in the regular season) and most would agree that's on defense. However, Brady is probably going to show decline every year once he rediscovers his peak.

So while Trading Brady now could be considered selling low, it might be the highest it ever gets and the change has to happen eventually. I'm just saying I would be shocked if it hasn't been discussed at some length by Bill, Bob, Ernie and Nick.

The cold facts are that if you put Brady out there and he's awful for some reason, he becomes worthless to the team as a player and as trade fodder. I think this is unlikely, but still makes for interesting discussion. If there's a very good chance he's going to return from surgery and rehab as a QB that's solid with flashes of brilliance, we've already got one on the roster (so far) who's five years younger and more mobile.

If he's going to come out and be Brady '07, by all means, keep him instead. But I would guess we'll never see a season in the realm of those numbers again from Tom. Frankly a QB competition in camp/pre-season may be the only way to assess this.

 

[scout]

Re: The Official 'Trade Brady' thread - Do Not Start Another One

Thank you BradyManny for actually bringing up counterpoints to the Brady thread, better then, such a "nutty thread" responses.
About midway through this thread the keep-Brady forces found a plausible reason as to why the Patriots can not trade Brady, the injury factor.
Taking that into account, I replied in another post that all the Cassel posts (what can we get, where's he going, etc) in this forum should then be stopped, as its only logical that he goes no-where if Brady isn't fit to play. Subsequently, I was called in idiot or something of that nature (big surprise). The reasoning of course is that we could start O'Connell...........
So we may be one year away from this same discussion, only we'll have more game data on Cassel and hopefully, a healthy Brady.
Thus, we are going to have the same argument, the only difference will be the ability to franchise Cassel, the health knowledge of Brady, and the numbers Cassel puts up in his 'sophomore' year.
In conclusion, this thread is not going away.

 

[BradyManny]

Here is the heart of the matter. Is he still going to be TFB? It would be easy for him, his agent, and other teams to think so, while Bill sees something otherwise. That is the scenario in which you get what you can before the dirty laundry gets hung out in public. And the upside is it would be invisible for a year and called an adjustment period.

Stop right there. That never happens, and it never will, least of all with Tom Brady and the New England Patriots.

The mere fact that Belichick would be shopping Brady is Code Red to all other teams that he is not himself. All other teams would be able to run a physical w Brady, and furthermore, no team would trade for him without seeing him establish himself as his former self on the field. Because right now, Brady's trade value is "N/A" and he has to prove himself to bring it back to what you think it would be.

Think about Moss and how we acquired him - we got a HOFer, perhaps the greatest receiver in history, for a 4th round pick. Why? Because he had not established that he was the Randy Moss of old.

I'm sorry, but you are the one sounding like your father-in-law ranting and raving here, because the scenario you are positing makes no sense.

The reason no one answered my 11 Qs is because the answer to all of them clearly spells out why this thread is ridiculous fantasy. No one on your side of this argument has tried to lay out any specifics, and the only one who did, Synovia, got exposed for not knowing what he was talking about when it came to the cap and salaries.

Believe me, I wish we could keep Cassel, I think he's a good NFL quarterback, and if we had him under contract still, he'd be the best backup in the NFL. If he had two years left on a cheap deal, his rookie deal for instance, I probably wouldn't even trade him this offseason - I'd probably hang on to him, in spite of the draft picks we could get for him. Because sometimes, a player is more valuable than the picks he could get in return.

But the reality is that Cassel has priced himself out of playing here by performing well on the field. The only way Cassel is the QB of the "future" is if the team franchises him in 2009 and 2010 (he'll also be an RFA in '10 if its an uncapped year, though I believe Miguel has pointed out the tender would be 15% higher than his 09 salary, which would be the franchise tag). You'd have Brady start the next two years and re-evaluate things after that. That's a slightly less insane scenario than trying to trade Brady right now and handing the keys of the franchise over to Cassel, who, still has question marks that are far bigger than "will Brady's knee be OK?"

But here are two things I know: Brady is untradeable right now, and if Brady and Cassel are both on the roster, Brady starts.

Honestly, I would've left this thread long ago if some of the posters who were sanctioning this poorly conceived trade idea weren't good posters. There are a some posters in here who otherwise are logical and reasonable but are coming to absurd conclusions. And that to me, is worth pointing out and not letting go. If it were just a bunch of trolls in here, that'd be one thing.

 

[JSn]

Bro, you better check your blood pressure. There is no ranting and raving in my post. I'm thinking over possible scenarios, out loud. Are we playing a new game called validate my opinion? If so, are we having fun yet?

13. New England -- $21m under – This figure doesn’t count the (gulp) $14.8m one-year tender for Matt Cassel. If they tag Cassel they’ll have $28 million cap dollars tied up in 2 quarterbacks. However, they can make it work. DE Richard Seymour, OT Matt Light, WR Randy Moss, LB Adalius Thomas, and DE Jarvis Green have a combined $65m in cap charges – if 3 or 4 of those guys restructure it frees up $15m easily.

I'm firmly hopeful that we keep both until we know for sure. If that's Feb 27th, great. If it's September, fine. The position is too important to throw away a valuable asset.

I'm ok with all your maximize the trade talk, but if we stop being consistent winners and get a trillion draft picks for Cassel, it won't seem like we came out all that well, despite what guys like us say.

 

[scout]

Stop right there. That never happens, and it never will, least of all with Tom Brady and the New England Patriots.

The mere fact that Belichick would be shopping Brady is Code Red to all other teams that he is not himself. All other teams would be able to run a physical w Brady, and furthermore, no team would trade for him without seeing him establish himself as his former self on the field. Because right now, Brady's trade value is "N/A" and he has to prove himself to bring it back to what you think it would be.

Think about Moss and how we acquired him - we got a HOFer, perhaps the greatest receiver in history, for a 4th round pick. Why? Because he had not established that he was the Randy Moss of old.

I'm sorry, but you are the one sounding like your father-in-law ranting and raving here, because the scenario you are positing makes no sense.

The reason no one answered my 11 Qs is because the answer to all of them clearly spells out why this thread is ridiculous fantasy. No one on your side of this argument has tried to lay out any specifics, and the only one who did, Synovia, got exposed for not knowing what he was talking about when it came to the cap and salaries.

Believe me, I wish we could keep Cassel, I think he's a good NFL quarterback, and if we had him under contract still, he'd be the best backup in the NFL. If he had two years left on a cheap deal, his rookie deal for instance, I probably wouldn't even trade him this offseason - I'd probably hang on to him, in spite of the draft picks we could get for him. Because sometimes, a player is more valuable than the picks he could get in return.

But the reality is that Cassel has priced himself out of playing here by performing well on the field. The only way Cassel is the QB of the "future" is if the team franchises him in 2009 and 2010 (he'll also be an RFA in '10 if its an uncapped year, though I believe Miguel has pointed out the tender would be 15% higher than his 09 salary, which would be the franchise tag). You'd have Brady start the next two years and re-evaluate things after that. That's a slightly less insane scenario than trying to trade Brady right now and handing the keys of the franchise over to Cassel, who, still has question marks that are far bigger than "will Brady's knee be OK?"

But here are two things I know: Brady is untradeable right now, and if Brady and Cassel are both on the roster, Brady starts.

Honestly, I would've left this thread long ago if some of the posters who were sanctioning this poorly conceived trade idea weren't generally good posters. There are a some posters in here who otherwise are logical and reasonable but are coming to absurd conclusions. And that to me, is worth pointing out and not letting go. If it were just a bunch of trolls in here, that'd be one thing.

How does Brady start? The whole premise of not being able to trade him was that he can not pass a physical. Thus, Cassel is the starter until its determined that Brady is able to play, which nobody knows.
Are you saying that if Brady comes back before the trading deadline, Cassell will be traded?
Or are you saying we will only get compensation for him after the season?