Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by mgteich, Apr 22, 2013.
Who is satisfied with our secondary?
IMHO, the answer is "delusional homers or optimists".
Not completely, yet. I'm quite satisfied with the progress from 2011 to 2012, even though we made the SB 2 years ago that secondary was in shambles. 2012 saw us upgrades at all 5 crucial spots, solidifying (IMO) 4 of 5 with the additions of Dennard/Talib and allowance of Arrington to nickel/DMC to FS. Gregory is not the answer but still was an upgrade, great progress for us but you won't get it all done in one offseason given how bad it was. This year I think if we add a significant safety prospect in the draft or if one of the Wilsons proves to be the answer over Gregory I'll be satisfied.
Without a reasonable upgrade over Gregory, I would not be happy with this the secondary or this offseason given it's one of the bigger, important needs.
I know this is a pipe dream, but I kinda hope that Ebner shows enough at safety to render Gregory unnecessary.
If they solidify the safety position next to McCourty and the front seven improves, I am satisfied with the secondary. It isn't a top 5 secondary by any stretch of the imagination, but it can get the job done.
This defense need more of a pass rush more than it needs to improve the secondary. I would much rather see the Pats draft a pass rushing DE or DT over another DB.
Hard to say when they haven't played even a single snap of preseason yet.
It depends on how well Wilson integrates with our new D. He is a veteran presence that was sorely needed.
It also depends on how our young guys step up -
Dennard will be hitting his second year in the system. Wilson and Ebner will be more experienced.
McCourty needs to continue to improve.
Also depends on how motivated Talib is in a contract year to prove he deserves top CB pay, and also to prove that he can keep his nose clean.
Way too EARLY to say whether we should be satisfied or not.
Not completely satisfied. Marquice Cole still needs to be replaced with a superior prospect who's an adept special teamer for the rights to backup Kyle Arrington as a slot corner. Also, an outside corner to backup Talib/Dowling in the event of injury is necessary.
Its possible the Patriots can fill both these spots with one prospect but its unlikely to happen unless they spend another high draft pick on a CB that can play in the slot and on the perimeter consistently.
Also adding, the safety group looks fine paper for now, unless another prospect is added to move Gregory off the roster completely.
I don't know that it's possible to ever be satisfied with a secondary, considering that there are 160 players that are either starters to nickel backs in the NFL, and not nearly 160 good players. Seattle's about the only team to have five players without at least one big question mark.
So I wouldn't say I'm satisfied with what they have right now, but I don't think they're at all in a bad position. I don't see them adding many players to the DB competition. I think we'll see a second or third round pick with some size in case the Pats need to replace Talib in 2014, but I can't see them adding serious competition for Arrington or a starting SS through the draft.
I think Arrington's troubles last season are extremely exaggerated, and he'll be just fine as a slot CB and occasionally as a starter on the outside. My biggest worry right now is Cole, but as long as the Pats have Talib, Dennard, Arrington, Dowling, and one other draft pick or free agent ahead of him, them I won't worry too much.
I'd add another corner through the draft/FA and call it a day.
Depending on what the team's plans are for Adrian and Tavon Wilson, we need another CB and probably a safety. Both, to me, can take a backseat to WR and DE.
I agree with jack, add a CB through draft or FA and that's pretty much it other than camp fodder. DJ Hayden and Jamar Taylor are worth a great deal of consideration in the first, and i would be happy with either but that's it for me as Milliner isn't going to be there and I don't want Trufant or any of the safeties with their first. safety may or may not be a need again next offseason but they are set there for this season and they should wait and see how A. Wilson plays and how T. Wilson and N. Ebner develop, as well as a long term decision on I-Dowling before investing more resources at the position. As an example if they did end up drafting a guy like DJ Hayden with their first pick and I-Dowling actually has a healthy season then they could look at moving him to safety and releasing Gregory next offseason. On the other hand T. Wilson and N. Ebner could show real signs of improvement and be their long term future, either way they don't need a safety at this point in time.
Personally, I think the best thing that could happen to the secondary is if Bjoern Werner falls to 29 or low enough for the Pats to trade up for him. I still say the biggest issue with the coverage on this team is the lack of pressure on opposing QBs.
Unless Tavon Wilson has made one hell of an improvement since the end of the season, this team still needs a starting safety. It also needs a CB4 and CB5.
if Tavon Wilson makes the jump to be a good starting Safety next to McCourty and the inside pass rush gets a lot better they will be ok but they still need more dept at CB
The secondary is fine when compared to the situations at other position groups...the only two questions are safety next to Devin and CB1 issue after 2013 season
Focus on DL, OL, WR more
Only groups better off than secondary is LB, RB
The secondary looked fine once Talib was out there. All the complaining is much ado about nothing....
Upgrade for Gregory? I can see that. He's a weak link.
But more CBs? Why? We have Talib; he's a pro bowl calibur guy. We have Dennard; who was rock solid for a rook CB (no small feat). Oh, and then we have Arrington. Now a nickel back, who lead CBs in INTs a couple of years back. Not terribly impressive? Fine. But how many nickelbacks can make this claim? He's still way above most other #3 CBs, guys....
Oh, and we still have Dowling. Remember him? He looked pretty good when he actually played. He doesn't need to be a starter now, so hopefully that'll keep him healthy.
It depends upon how you define "starting safety," as I expect Adrian Wilson to be in there on first down and situationally on 2nd and 3rd, and see Tavon Wilson as rotating in situationally. So does he need to show significant improvement, yes, but will he be the "starter," probably not. He is still an important piece for their secondary and unless Belichick plans on releasing either he or gregory then there really isn't any room for a high pick at safety, and even then i don't see the talent high in this draft to go safety and release either T. Wilson or Gregory. I can see going CB in this draft but not safety.
Just note along with Dee Milliner, DJ Hayden will be long gone by the Patriots are too select in the draft unless they trade up to the top half of the draft. He's had a rapid Stephon Gilmore-esque rise up draft boards among teams in the top 16 after more tape study and less red flag concerns since he was cleared medically. Reports are that some teams, and not mock draft gurus, already peg him as a superior prospect to Milliner and may end up leapfrogging him in the process. That's entirely not surprising given his overall skillset.
The main reason he wasn't rated as highly before among the mock draft community was because of his health concerns, which as stated above are now nonexistent. Don't be shocked to see him picked in the top 16, like many were when Gilmore got picked by the Bills last year. Anyone who paid close attention the Bills last season, could see that Gilmore was a vastly superior player during the latter part of the season than he was at the beginning of it as he was often times tasked with coverage on teams' #1 WR. He's a star in the making. Hayden and Gilmore are very similar to one another.
The only CB in that range in the first round that the Patriots could select is Taylor, but he too may be gone by then. It should be interesting to see how it all shapes up.
It could be Kyle Love for all I care, as long as we finally have 2 starting caliber safeties on the roster again.
If your safety can't cover well enough to stay on the field, he's not a starting safety. Right now, NE has one starting safety, and that's McCourty. The signing of Wilson has led to a (probably) false sense of security about the position.
As for CB, there are positions which have less need for a first or second round draft pick being used on them by the Patriots, but not many.
Belichick obviously believes he can still play or he wouldn't have brought him in. Whether he is right or not remains to be seen but having addressed the position by moving a first round pick there, using a second for T. Wilson and then signing A. Wilson I seriously doubt he is going to go S again high in this draft. I agree on corner and can see them taking one high if the right guy is still on the board.
While i agree that Hayden is moving up rapidly that in no way guarantees him a high first selection, as you are suggesting. he may go high or he could still be on the board when they are picking, I'll wait until the draft shakes out, this one is too volatile to make many such "lock" claims
Belichick brings in numbers of aging FAs pretty much every year. Most of them go by the wayside. Wilson was being sat on passing downs in Arizona. As for the CB stuff, I suspect you and I will simply never agree on this topic. I don't see any justificiation for taking one before round 3.
While I prioritize WR and DL, I have no trouble drafting a CB and a S. Teams have to have draft success because it is simply too expensive to build entirely through free agency. Even if Talib overcomes personal and injury baggage, he is a free agent with no assurance of being re-signed next year. Drafting a CB now might put him in position to step in next year (and give insurance and leverage with Talib). As for safety, McCourty looks like he ought to be a solid safety, but he has never done it for a full season so we cannot say he is a sure thing. After that, there is nothing but question marks (Wilsons) or holes (Gregory). We need another safety with enough speed to cover the deep field and also be solid in run support. Remember when BB drafted Solder when we already had Vollmer and Light so there was no "need" at T?
The way I see it free agency is more of a short term solution, and the draft is more of a long term solution. So although the Pats may be okay at cornerback and safety for the 2013 season, that does not mean that they won't or should not consider using an early draft pick on those positions.
Aqib Talib will be gone next year; if he has a good season then he will find a bigger payday than the Pats will give him as a free agent, and if the does not play well then the Pats won't re-sign him. That leaves a void at the position (unless you really want to count on Dowling), which means it would make sense to use a draft pick on a CB.
At safety there is McCourty, an older player (Wilson Sr.), an unproven player (Wilson Jr.), and a player with a limited ceiling (Gregory). Again, using a pick on a player for this position would not be a bad idea.
Obviously WR and DL are higher priorities, but just because that is so, it does not mean that the Pats should not use a day two pick (or two) on CB and S; depending on possible trade downs it may make even more sense.
Some play well and others fail, we'll see. As for justifying a high pick at CB it depends entirely upon their evaluations of the prospects who are available. I have no idea how the Patriots have these guys rated but if they believe that Hayden or Taylor will be perennial pro bowlers while their other options won't be as good then they will not only take them but have made the right move in doing so. If I can have an all pro quality CB or a #2 WR then i will take the CB every time, even if I have a greater need at WR, which they clearly do. Same goes for DE/OLB, if Werner is still there then I would take him and go for the WR in the 2nd and 3rd and forego CB if the ratings are equal.
The problem being that they were unable to meet their big need at WR in free agency and are left with needing the draft to be utilized for immediate need over long term. That doesn't mean they should ignore it as a factor and take a prospect purely for positional need but it certainly means that if the ratings are close then the need trumps. However if they have Jesse Williams, Tyler Eifert, DJ Hayden, or even Alec Ogletree rated significantly higher than a justin Hunter or R. Woods then they will take the higher rated prospect and address the need another way.
I'm very satisfied, totally expecting Ras-I Dowling to be a stud next year! Gotta get one more good corner to mitigate the disaster that is Arrington outside if Talib gets hurt.
Neither I nor BB agree with you on this one, since he factors need into his 'value' equation.
Thanks Bill, appreciate the clarification.
It's fine. No need to even draft anyone this year. Trade all picks to next year.
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