Who Is Satisfied With Our Secondary?

[goheels22002]

I love the Patriots secondary. And I'll love it even more if they stay healthy through training camp (Mr. I Dowling, you got that?).

I think the Patriots have a nice mixture of youth and experience, nastiness, and role players right now.

I was talking to a Division 1 college backfield coach and I asked him how important chemistry is with a secondary. He told me that assuming guys can physically play their position, communication and understanding your job trumps elite speed or strength every time. He said the worst defenses he's coached were the ones with extraordinary athletes who didn't have the smarts or put in the time to see what was going on in front of them, or who tried to do too much and got burned.

He said the big problem with the Patriots has been guys out of position, injuries (i.e. Talib in the AFCC) and the revolving door of DBs the last couple of years.

He said , "If they could just settle in and work as a unit, the secondary would be fine,...and a pass rush wouldn't hurt either."

 

[Ivan]

I didn't make that claim.



There's nothing asinine about it, because taking a CB in rounds 1 or 2 would be a waste of draft resources that are needed elsewhere. But thanks for your time. We're done here.

Actually you did make that claim:

Neither I nor BB agree with you on this one, since he factors need into his 'value' equation.

And as CB is a need using as high pick on one you believe will be a good player makes perfect sense.

 

[Ivan]

What you say is true in theory. If this were true in practice, Dez Bryant would be a patriot.

I have absolutely no idea where they had Bryant rated and I really don't know how anyone else does unless they have access to their draft boards. For all I know they may have taken him off entirely for being a meathead.

 

[Deus Irae]

Actually you did make that claim:



And as CB is a need using as high pick on one you believe will be a good player makes perfect sense.

Final post to you, since it's a clarification:

Read my post that you're quoting

Neither I nor BB agree with you on this one, since he factors need into his 'value' equation.

and read what you responded with

Not sure how you reach the conclusion that you and Belichick are using the same process

Now, just because I pointed out that BB uses need as part of his value rubric, you took the leap and claimed that I was concluding that he and I are using the same process. I never made that claim. However, since you can't seem to let this go, here you go

"It starts with value," Belichick said. "You value the players, however you put a grade on them. You value them, and then within that, there’s a draft strategy, maybe where you think that player is going to go in the draft, what the league thinks of him relative to what your individual team thinks of him, and need can sometimes factor into that, too, or maybe the compilation of your roster. I shouldn’t necessarily say need — a player that you see having a bigger impact on your team because of whatever the circumstances are on your team versus another one that may — for the same value for lack of a better word — duplicate something that you already have and maybe make it less valuable for your particular team at that particular point in time.

Bill Belichick Compares Value to Positional Need Heading Into Draft | New England Patriots | NESN.com

There it is. BB and I may, or may not, use the same process, but BB does take need into account, and says so, even while splitting that hair a bit.

 

[Joey007]

One more guy then I'm satisfied. Either Sign a vet like Sheldon Brown in FA, or draft a corner in round 2 or 3.

 

[Ivan]

Final post to you, since it's a clarification:

Read my post that you're quoting



and read what you responded with



Now, just because I pointed out that BB uses need as part of his value rubric, you took the leap and claimed that I was concluding that he and I are using the same process. I never made that claim. However, since you can't seem to let this go, here you go



Bill Belichick Compares Value to Positional Need Heading Into Draft | New England Patriots | NESN.com

There it is. BB and I may, or may not, use the same process, but BB does take need into account, and says so, even while splitting that hair a bit.

Lmao, your desire to try and direct any discussion so that you set the terms and boundaries is comical. If I feel like responding I will Deus, you don't determine when any "discussion" is over, only your part in it.


I have never suggested that Belichick doesn't take need into account, only your assertion that CB apparently isn't a "need," which is clear from your contention that using a high pick for one is a "waste," which is an idiotic statement.


Now we're done. At least until your next response and declaration that "we are done."

 

[Gumby]

I've always defaulted to 1st rounders going to hogs if you had any kind of need on either side (O/D). There is a need on D for a pass rush plus up. (assuming all our adds last year and CFL guys dont have sophmore super seasons).

I think the need for a CB in draft is overblown; Frankly what I think the Pats need in a CB is someone who is 6'2 or over and physical. And I dont see anybody like that falling to #29 (or wherever the bouncing ball lands after BB is done) . Between Talib/Dennard/Dowling/McCourty (if reqd to) and even Arrington we have enough quick mid-sized guys - we dont need to draft another. So, I would much rather see a S in the 2nd.

WR in the 3rd. And I agree that no one should expect much from this guy (or any rookie wr) in his first year. But I think BB likes to throw multiple categories at a problem and he already grabbed FAs so I think he'll throw some kind of rookie in the mix too; just not a #1. Using a #1 on a guy who gets the ball thrown in his direction 1/7th of your O possessions IF HE IS LUCKY just doesnt seem to fit the BB cost-efficiency model.

I could easily flip 2/3 if the right guy was falling. and I fully expect either the 1st or 2d picks to get traded down for some late round ammo.

 

[Coach42]

Maybe the title of the thread should be what position groups ARE you satisfied with. I'm personally thinking I'm satisfied wit RB,QB, and TE. That's probably it.

 

[mgteich]

We read and listen to all that out there and we speculate based on our histories of studying the patriots and their actions (many of us for several decades). So, it NOT true that we have ABSOLUTELY no idea where the patriots or others rated Bryant. If we must have absolute proof (a sneak peak at the draft board) before we state our informed opinions, then we might as well reduce the board to a centralized news service.

I don't question the choice to pass on the higher rated (and more needed) Dez Bryant. However, there was lots and lots and lots of discussion before and after the draft, and many times since then.

I have absolutely no idea where they had Bryant rated and I really don't know how anyone else does unless they have access to their draft boards. For all I know they may have taken him off entirely for being a meathead.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

Without a reasonable upgrade over Gregory, I would not be happy with this the secondary or this offseason given it's one of the bigger, important needs.

Adrian Wilson should be a significant upgrade over Gregory.

Our secondary still has to prove their worth but its slowly coming together. McCourty has found his new home at FS and hes a very good one, so that position is set. Adrian Wilson has been a perennial pro bowler his entire career, so even at his age I'm sure he'll bring some leadership and tough play to the SS position and help mentor Tavon Wilson and McCourty.

Talib and Dennard as your starting corners isn't too shabby, with Arrington at the nickle and Ras-IR as depth. Id like to see them add 1 more CB through the draft, preferably with a 1st or 2nd round pick to add some more depth and also as an insurance policy in case Talib decides to go elsewhere next year.

Is it the best secondary in the league? Not by any stretch of the imagination, but its still coming together with a lot of young talent. I really think this defense is on the verge of breaking out... they're all so young but now they've had quite a few years to develop chemistry. We just need Tavon Wilson, Hightower and Chandler Jones to mature into their roles and I think this D will start to cause some problems for offenses. There is a lot of talent on this defense, a lot of young talent.

 

[Ivan]

We read and listen to all that out there and we speculate based on our histories of studying the patriots and their actions (many of us for several decades). So, it NOT true that we have ABSOLUTELY no idea where the patriots or others rated Bryant. If we must have absolute proof (a sneak peak at the draft board) before we state our informed opinions, then we might as well reduce the board to a centralized news service.

I don't question the choice to pass on the higher rated (and more needed) Dez Bryant. However, there was lots and lots and lots of discussion before and after the draft, and many times since then.

I am not talking about "absolute proof" other than to say that looking at their draft board would be the only way to ascertain it, what i am sayying is that even after years and years of following the draft and the Patriots approach to it i still have no idea where they have most players ranked and how they come to those rankings. I am usually wrong about their picks and believe that goes for most if not all of us most of the time and as far as rating prospects thought that the Tavon Wilson pick last year, when Lavonte David and others we held in high regard were still on the board.

 

[mgteich]

fair enough

It is indeed difficult to predict where the patriots will rank someone. Tavon Wilson is certainly a good example. I would note that in this case, the need was so great that the team over-compensated for need. A 4th round talent got drafted in the 2nd because of the need and because another team or two might have been equally willing to reach.

I suspect that will see such reaching this year at quarterback. There is ONE quarterback generally accepted to have a first round ranking. However, almost everyone has quarterbacks way over-drafted.

I am not talking about "absolute proof" other than to say that looking at their draft board would be the only way to ascertain it, what i am sayying is that even after years and years of following the draft and the Patriots approach to it i still have no idea where they have most players ranked and how they come to those rankings. I am usually wrong about their picks and believe that goes for most if not all of us most of the time and as far as rating prospects thought that the Tavon Wilson pick last year, when Lavonte David and others we held in high regard were still on the board.

 

[Ivan]

fair enough

It is indeed difficult to predict where the patriots will rank someone. Tavon Wilson is certainly a good example. I would note that in this case, the need was so great that the team over-compensated for need.

Obviously i agree, i think that most year's, this year excepted, a pretty consistent picture emerges from the various mocks of the top 100 and about where they should go in the draft, it just seems like the Patriots have players rated pretty differently than that consensus, and choices like Vollmer and T. Wilson and others seem to confirm it. I do think that most years their top 25 is pretty close to the consensus but it breaks down after that.

I am really looking forward to this draft and how it shakes out as i have almost no idea of what is going to take place.

 

[mgteich]

I agree on the consensus.

However, Gosselin did have Vollmer very close to where we drafted him. I really think Wilson was a mighty reach. Vollmer was simply unknown to many analysts.

I would also note that mocks and rankings are quite different, as you certainly know. For example, most have only one QB in the top 50 players as far as rankings of best player. However, many mocks have more that one quarterback drafted in the top 50.

Obviously i agree, i think that most year's, this year excepted, a pretty consistent picture emerges from the various mocks of the top 100 and about where they should go in the draft, it just seems like the Patriots have players rated pretty differently than that consensus, and choices like Vollmer and T. Wilson and others seem to confirm it. I do think that most years their top 25 is pretty close to the consensus but it breaks down after that.

I am really looking forward to this draft and how it shakes out as i have almost no idea of what is going to take place.

 

[Ivan]

I agree on the consensus.

However, Gosselin did have Vollmer very close to where we drafted him. I really think Wilson was a mighty reach. Vollmer was simply unknown to many analysts.

I would also note that mocks and rankings are quite different, as you certainly know. For example, most have only one QB in the top 50 players as far as rankings of best player. However, many mocks have more that one quarterback drafted in the top 50.

Yep, i agree. i didn't know that Gosselin had Vollmer that high, i pay a good deal of attention to the draft and i missed on Vollmer entirely.

 

[Deus Irae]

Adrian Wilson should be a significant upgrade over Gregory...

Based on what, and in what aspects of the position?

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Adrian Wilson should be a significant upgrade over Gregory.



.

Based on his 2012 performance, I don't think we can say that right now with such confidence.

Based on his 2011 and previous performances, I think we can say he could be a significant upgrade. We will see how this plays out over the course of the season. Until then it's hard to answer this thread or evaluate this offseason.

 

[goheels22002]

Based on what, and in what aspects of the position?

Adrian Wilson is 30 pounds heavier and 3 inches taller than Gregory. A quite different player. Wilson is much more physical and will punish guys who catch balls up the seams. He also matches up better with tight ends.

Wilson is a perfect complement to McCourty in nickel and dime packages. Gregory was never a guy a who could step in at the LB position in blitz packages.

I look forward to seeing Flacco float one of his 50 yard passes out to Dennard's side with Wilson bearing down on the receiver while Dennard tussles for the ball. Not going to be a good day for the receiver if he decides to catch the ball.

 

[Deus Irae]

Adrian Wilson is 30 pounds heavier and 3 inches taller than Gregory. A quite different player. Wilson is much more physical and will punish guys who catch balls up the seams. He also matches up better with tight ends.

Wilson is a perfect complement to McCourty in nickel and dime packages. Gregory was never a guy a who could step in at the LB position in blitz packages.

I look forward to seeing Flacco float one of his 50 yard passes out to Dennard's side with Wilson bearing down on the receiver while Dennard tussles for the ball. Not going to be a good day for the receiver if he decides to catch the ball.

Wilson couldn't cover last year, and he's a lesser player against the run at this point than Landry is, yet many people here last year were screaming "NO!" to Landry at the top of the fingertips and are now arguing that the Wilson signing is a solution to the safety problems.

Gotta love fans....

 

[Claremonster]

Wilson couldn't cover last year, and he's a lesser player against the run at this point than Landry is, yet many people here last year were screaming "NO!" to Landry at the top of the fingertips and are now arguing that the Wilson signing is a solution to the safety problems.

Gotta love fans....

Gregory might be smart, but, overall he sucks. Ass. Not even remotely a starter. Only in a pinch.