Our Receivers Are Already Better Than In 2022

[PScottman]

Meanwhile, Gesicki adds another dimension they've been lacking, and just having him draw coverage will help make the other guys more productive.

Critical observation here. The discussion of the "true #1 WR at all costs is the only solution to the Patriots offense" focuses on one aspect: "scaring the defense into game planning for said asset". It assumes that no one else can ever get open because that's what happened to guys like Agholor and Smith (or they dropped critical passes).

Between J. Smith and N. Agholor, you had two targets that could be eliminated with minimal defensive attention. Improving just ONE of those two automatically increases not just one potential target, but all the others as well. Even if the defense doesn't have to double team one of the WRs/TEs, the assumed improvement of Gesicki over Smith also creates more opportunity for mismatch (which almost everyone agrees BOB will be able to see and adjust for exploitation much better than MP) elsewhere on the field as the defense now has to cover 4-5 options with quality defenders.

None of this accounts for the poor OL play, poor offensive design and adjustment, and rushed decision making of the QB from last year, but with that many holes to fill assuming just signing a #1 WR fixes all of them (especially as it then places a much higher premium on nailing ALL other draft picks in having to pay said #1) is a much bigger risk decision than improving the overall pass catcher stable which I believe Gesicki's signing does.

 

[captain stone]

Critical observation here. The discussion of the "true #1 WR at all costs is the only solution to the Patriots offense" focuses on one aspect: "scaring the defense into game planning for said asset". It assumes that no one else can ever get open because that's what happened to guys like Agholor and Smith (or they dropped critical passes).

Between J. Smith and N. Agholor, you had two targets that could be eliminated with minimal defensive attention. Improving just ONE of those two automatically increases not just one potential target, but all the others as well. Even if the defense doesn't have to double team one of the WRs/TEs, the assumed improvement of Gesicki over Smith also creates more opportunity for mismatch (which almost everyone agrees BOB will be able to see and adjust for exploitation much better than MP) elsewhere on the field as the defense now has to cover 4-5 options with quality defenders.

None of this accounts for the poor OL play, poor offensive design and adjustment, and rushed decision making of the QB from last year, but with that many holes to fill assuming just signing a #1 WR fixes all of them (especially as it then places a much higher premium on nailing ALL other draft picks in having to pay said #1) is a much bigger risk decision than improving the overall pass catcher stable which I believe Gesicki's signing does.

No reasonable poster is including this phrase in his support of up-grading the position.

 

[Boomer B]

Ask me after the draft.

The Raiders ranked 29th in passing yards last year with the same group, only Waller is gone now.

You "weapons" guys think everyone else is better... and execution, coordinator, QB, offensive line are just a by product of weapons.

It's a horrible football take.

The Raiders sucked last year with (Waller) better weapons. How are they better now?

Clueless.

Raiders WR last 3 years

D Adams - 338 rec / 4443 yds/ 43 TDs
J Meyers - 209 rec / 2399 yds / 8 TDs
H Renfrew - 195 rec / 2024 yds / 13 TDs
Totals - 742 rec / 8866 yds / 64 TDs

49ers WR last 3 years

D Samuel - 166 rec / 2428 yds / 20 TDs
B Aiyuk - 194 rec / 2589 yds / 18 TDs
J Jennings (2 years) - 59 rec / 698 yds / 6 TDs
Totals - 454 rec / 5715 yds / 44 TDs

Patriots WR last 3 years

JuJu - 190 rec / 1893 yds / 12 TDs
K Bourne - 139 rec / 1901 yds / 8 TDs
D Parker - 134 rec / 1847 yds / 9 TDs
Totals - 463 rec / 5641 yds / 29 TDs

Clear as day that the Raiders and 49ers have better WR cores than we do. Only reason we are even close to the 49ers in receptions and yards is that Jennings only played 2 years and Deebo was injured much of last year. Brandon Aiyuk who is the number 2 on the 49ers is better than anyone on our roster. 25 years old 78 rec/1015 yds/8 TDs last season

 

[State]

We’ve lacked an X receiver for a long time. Q Johnston fills the bill.

 

[Wozzy]

Clueless.

Raiders WR last 3 years

D Adams - 338 rec / 4443 yds/ 43 TDs
J Meyers - 209 rec / 2399 yds / 8 TDs
H Renfrew - 195 rec / 2024 yds / 13 TDs
Totals - 742 rec / 8866 yds / 64 TDs

49ers WR last 3 years

D Samuel - 166 rec / 2428 yds / 20 TDs
B Aiyuk - 194 rec / 2589 yds / 18 TDs
J Jennings (2 years) - 59 rec / 698 yds / 6 TDs
Totals - 454 rec / 5715 yds / 44 TDs

Patriots WR last 3 years

JuJu - 190 rec / 1893 yds / 12 TDs
K Bourne - 139 rec / 1901 yds / 8 TDs
D Parker - 134 rec / 1847 yds / 9 TDs
Totals - 463 rec / 5641 yds / 29 TDs

Clear as day that the Raiders and 49ers have better WR cores than we do. Only reason we are even close to the 49ers in receptions and yards is that Jennings only played 2 years and Deebo was injured much of last year. Brandon Aiyuk who is the number 2 on the 49ers is better than anyone on our roster. 25 years old 78 rec/1015 yds/8 TDs last season

Lol... the only thing gleaned from these stats is Devante Adams is far and away one of the best WR's in the entire league, but we knew that.

Beyond that the last three years we had Cam with a bum shoulder and the worst starting QB in the league as a bridge guy, a rookie QB in 2021 where they threw the 25th fewest times in the NFL and Patricia in 2022 which was an unmitigated disaster. Go look at the individual best seasons of each WR and you'll find the Pats WR's in an optimal situation are often better than the 2's and 3's elsewhere.

 

[Boomer B]

Lol... the only thing gleaned from these stats is Devante Adams is far and away one of the best WR's in the entire league, but we knew that.

Beyond that the last three years we had Cam with a bum shoulder and the worst starting QB in the league as a bridge guy, a rookie QB in 2021 where they threw the 25th fewest times in the NFL and Patricia in 2022 which was an unmitigated disaster. Go look at the individual best seasons of each WR and you'll find the Pats WR's in an optimal situation are often better than the 2's and 3's elsewhere.

********. Juju played with Mahomes and Meyers played in the Patricia led offense and with Cam. He still put up comparable numbers. One of those years Bourne was with the 49ers and for 2 years Parker was with the Dolphins. Neither lit it up those years.

 

[Wozzy]

********. Juju played with Mahomes and Meyers played in the Patricia led offense and with Cam. He still put up comparable numbers. One of those years Bourne was with the 49ers and for 2 years Parker was with the Dolphins. Neither lit it up those years.

Juju played one season with Mahomes, missed a couple starts with injury and his stats were better than Meyers.

His career stats are better than Meyers, better on a game by game average, better in totality.

What you failed to mention was Juju only played 5 games in 2021 due to injury and his QB was a broken down Ben who could barely lift his arm. So the last 3 years is a garbage comparison, do it on a game by game basis or don’t do it at all.

 

[Boomer B]

Juju played one season with Mahomes, missed a couple starts with injury and his stats were better than Meyers.

His career stats are better than Meyers, better on a game by game average, better in totality.

What you failed to mention was Juju only played 5 games in 2021 due to injury and his QB was a broken down Ben who could barely lift his arm. So the last 3 years is a garbage comparison, do it on a game by game basis or don’t do it at all.

sure, let's play the injury game. Deebo on the 49ers and Renfrow on the Raiders were both injured much of last year. I used 3 years to give an overall viewpoint. If you can't admit the Raiders and 49ers have a better WR core then the Pats then you're a blind homer.

 

[Triumph]

sure, let's play the injury game. Deebo on the 49ers and Renfrow on the Raiders were both injured much of last year. I used 3 years to give an overall viewpoint. If you can't admit the Raiders and 49ers have a better WR core then the Pats then you're a blind homer.

Deaf too

 

[PScottman]

I've done a 180 and think BB surprises and goes playmaker in the 1st round. I'm hoping for Zay Flowers.
I know OT or CB is the safer bet, but the pressure is on this team (and BB the GM) in a major way.

They’ve improved enough to still be a bottom third receiving corp easily

I think they need an impact receiver added to this roster,

Yeah but, is better good enough? Remember the line about no defensive coach’s losing sleep over our receiving corps - do you think any of them have gone to pick up some Melatonin at their local drugstore yet??

A #1 option would make a difference & the team knows that.

we still need a WR defenses need to game plan against.

You can harp on the hyperbole of "at all costs" as much as you want, but the refrain remains the same..."must have a true #1" is heard early and often...and a true #1, unless it's an unexpected late draft pick win (which many of those same posters have definitively said the Patriots have not and cannot do with WRs especially) will take a significant amount of capitol to acquire meaning less for all the other holes the Patriots have.

 

[Ivan]

You can harp on the hyperbole of "at all costs" as much as you want, but the refrain remains the same..."must have a true #1" is heard early and often...and a true #1, unless it's an unexpected late draft pick win (which many of those same posters have definitively said the Patriots have not and cannot do with WRs especially) will take a significant amount of capitol to acquire meaning less for all the other holes the Patriots have.

I never said #1 receiver, I said an impact receiver, there’s a difference. I want them to draft Zay Flowers, and that’s not a traditional #1 receiver, it’s more of a Jalen Waddle type receiver that forces defenses to pay attention to them to open up other receivers. Same goes for Jeudy and Hopkins. I don’t know if Hopkins is still a true #1, but he is certainly a WR you have to pay a great deal of attention to.

Their offense has been a grind it put offense since Brady left, and they have shown no explosiveness at all. They have what could be called a solid offense, but not one that can put up points quickly, and with the AFC being what it is they are going to have to create one if they want to compete this season,

 

[Wozzy]

sure, let's play the injury game. Deebo on the 49ers and Renfrow on the Raiders were both injured much of last year. I used 3 years to give an overall viewpoint. If you can't admit the Raiders and 49ers have a better WR core then the Pats then you're a blind homer.

That's easy enough to parse, PFR gives stats on a per game basis. Juju has been better regardless of who the QB was and on a per game basis. He is faster, that's also a fact based upon measurables and yards after catch. I like Jakobi, Juju is simply better and cheaper. Parker has been better than Jakobi or Renfrow, different type of weapon, different position almost... but better. Bourne is closer to Jakobi, the Raiders #2, than any receiver on our roster. If Renfrow was the slot WR they wanted they never would have signed Meyers.

The Raiders have 11 WR's under contract, signed Phillip Dorsett, Deandre Carter, Cam Sims, DJ Turner and a bunch of stiff this offseason. They are not investing more at the WR position and shouldn't... they're already paying one of the highest paid WR's in the league and their defense is horrible. They need all the resources they have left there.

The X factor for the Patriots is Thornton, Marcus Jones and the open roster spots and 11 draft picks they have. We're not leaving the draft and remainder of offseason without adding some WR's. Besides... the original poster said we were bottom ten, Crawdaddy was missing six teams with receiver rooms better than ours and the ones he did list weren't better if O'Brien does his job.

 

[Boomer B]

That's easy enough to parse, PFR gives stats on a per game basis. Juju has been better regardless of who the QB was and on a per game basis. He is faster, that's also a fact based upon measurables and yards after catch. I like Jakobi, Juju is simply better and cheaper. Parker has been better than Jakobi or Renfrow, different type of weapon, different position almost... but better. Bourne is closer to Jakobi, the Raiders #2, than any receiver on our roster. If Renfrow was the slot WR they wanted they never would have signed Meyers.

The Raiders have 11 WR's under contract, signed Phillip Dorsett, Deandre Carter, Cam Sims, DJ Turner and a bunch of stiff this offseason. They are not investing more at the WR position and shouldn't... they're already paying one of the highest paid WR's in the league and their defense is horrible. They need all the resources they have left there.

The X factor for the Patriots is Thornton, Marcus Jones and the open roster spots and 11 draft picks they have. We're not leaving the draft and remainder of offseason without adding some WR's. Besides... the original poster said we were bottom ten, Crawdaddy was missing six teams with receiver rooms better than ours and the ones he did list weren't better if O'Brien does his job.

Parker is better right now than Meyers? You must really be drinking the Kool-aid.

And you certainly can go on a per game basis, but actually being available for the game means something. Ask Bill Belichick or Tom Brady what it means to have a player you can count on to be out there.

Even if you want to say Juju is better then Meyers (I don't think there's much difference between them, they are both #2's), that's still not taking Devante Adams into the equation who is not only a #1 but one of the best in the league and makes the Raiders WR core as a whole much. much better than ours.

 

[Wozzy]

Parker is better right now than Meyers? You must really be drinking the Kool-aid.

And you certainly can go on a per game basis, but actually being available for the game means something. Ask Bill Belichick or Tom Brady what it means to have a player you can count on to be out there.

Even if you want to say Juju is better then Meyers (I don't think there's much difference between them, they are both #2's), that's still not taking Devante Adams into the equation who is not only a #1 but one of the best in the league and makes the Raiders WR core as a whole much. much better than ours.

We'll see what the Patriots unit looks like after the draft and free agency ends.

In the meantime they're a hundred times better already with O'Brien calling the offense.

 

[patsinthesnow]

You can harp on the hyperbole of "at all costs" as much as you want, but the refrain remains the same..."must have a true #1" is heard early and often...and a true #1, unless it's an unexpected late draft pick win (which many of those same posters have definitively said the Patriots have not and cannot do with WRs especially) will take a significant amount of capitol to acquire meaning less for all the other holes the Patriots have.

WR is the 2nd highest paid position in the NFL & WR1 or #1 option is the 2nd most important position. The pats haven’t had one since arguably 2017 in Gronk. Their offensive production hasn’t been the same since then. They had a #1 option in the passing game every year from 2007-2017 (Moss, Welker, Gronk).

The pats have nobody that requires extra attention. Coaches, draft analysts, etc. have said similar. The pats will need a #1 option if they want to become a SB contender.

The last team in the conference championship round to not have a #1 option was the 2018 pats. They had an elite OL, the goat & a pretty good defense (Edelman was also the SB MVP).

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

It was cool to say WR isn't that important or you don't need a WR1 to go far years ago but times have changed. And for a few different reasons.

You'll probably never see a bad WR again bc of all the athletes out there. So there's a constant supply. A lot more than years ago and needless to say guys are bigger, stronger, quicker. This has led to a yac explosion of the last 20-30 years. Much more "get your best athletes in space" and let them create. They have more freedom to adjust at the line, in route.

The position has changed and I believe we know how important it is. Or we wouldn't have taken a chance on Harry, Gordon, Brown, Sanu, Thornton and still be in the market, looking at Jeudy, Hop etc.

And again you'll never see Mac's true ceiling without a top tier squad around him.

 

[mgteich]

It was cool to say WR isn't that important or you don't need a WR1 to go far years ago but times have changed. And for a few different reasons.

You'll probably never see a bad WR again bc of all the athletes out there. So there's a constant supply. A lot more than years ago and needless to say guys are bigger, stronger, quicker. This has led to a yac explosion of the last 20-30 years. Much more "get your best athletes in space" and let them create. They have more freedom to adjust at the line, in route.

The position has changed and I believe we know how important it is. Or we wouldn't have taken a chance on Harry, Gordon, Brown, Sanu, Thornton and still be in the market, looking at Jeudy, Hop etc.

And again you'll never see Mac's true ceiling without a top tier squad around him.

I agree with all of this.

The open question for me is the relative value of WR's at various rounds of the draft. Yes, a top WR is a need for every team. Are the first round WR's that much better prospects than 2nd rounders or third rounders? Should teams draft a couple every year and carry 6 WR's?

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I agree with all of this.

The open question for me is the relative value of WR's at various rounds of the draft. Yes, a top WR is a need for every team. Are the first round WR's that much better prospects than 2nd rounders or third rounders? Should teams draft a couple every year and carry 6 WR's?

In no order ...

Hill - 5th TD
Waddle - top 10
Jefferson - 1st RD
Chase - top 10
Adams - 2nd RD
Lamb - 1st RD
Diggs - 5th RD
Smith - 1st RD
Brown - 2nd RD
DK - 2nd RD
Cooper - top 10
Jeudy - 1st RD
St Brown - 4th
Kupp - 3rd
Allen - 3rd
Wilson - 1st RD
Olave - 1st RD
Deebo - 2nd RD
Williams - top 10
Hop - 1st RD
Moore - 1st RD
Watkins - top 10
Evans - top 10
Beckham - top 12
Cooks - 1st RD
Julio - 1st RD
Green - 1st RD

Seems pretty evident draft capital matters, a lot. And you have to be prepared to spend if you want real returns. Can't live life by the "exception." Especially when your 3rd year QB is coming off a disaster of a year.

 

[captain stone]

I agree with all of this.

The open question for me is the relative value of WR's at various rounds of the draft. Yes, a top WR is a need for every team. Are the first round WR's that much better prospects than 2nd rounders or third rounders? Should teams draft a couple every year and carry 6 WR's?

I believe that as long as you have a full complement of draft picks and there aren't multiple sudden/unexpected holes that need filling at multiple positions, then you should draft at least one WR, LT, CB & ED every...single...year.

 

[mgteich]

I believe that as long as you have a full complement of draft picks and there aren't multiple sudden/unexpected holes that need filling at multiple positions, then you should draft at least one WR, LT, CB & ED every...single...year.

not LT

Sometimes, you have LT's that play for many, many years. If you have a solid backup, there is no reason to draft one.