Our Receivers Are Already Better Than In 2022

[UrbanCowboy]

He's better than all the guys we have.

I had a 2nd on him so a little high. Raw as hell needed to really learn the position but he's come a long long way. Dynamic threat inside and outside and blocks his butt off. Proven but still just entering his prime and scratching the surface.

I agree at times but id take this established player over what you'd get in the 2nd.

my question on the established guys over draft picks is the salary cap. Established guys cost more. You trade draft picks for established guys and you start throwing your salary cap off. I suppose there is some sort of idea roster construction balance between draft picks (1st contract), more expensive established guys, and cheap vets?

 

[Sicilian]

my question on the established guys over draft picks is the salary cap. Established guys cost more. You trade draft picks for established guys and you start throwing your salary cap off. I suppose there is some sort of idea roster construction balance between draft picks (1st contract), more expensive established guys, and cheap vets?

I mean there has to be a balance, because young players are only cheap for four years (5 for 1st rounders, but the fifth year option is still a significant leap usually). So even if you hit on half of your picks, which is a GREAT record, you're getting 4 cheap players every year. So on a rolling timeline, you're recycling 16 good, young, cheap players on rookie deals in any 4 year stretch. Taking out your specialists, that leaves 34 roster spots and at least 6 "starters" that need to be filled through other means, be it re-signing your own picks to now market (or close) deals, or outside free agents.

That's why the draft is important, but also a very volatile part of team building. You're always only a couple bad drafts away from having to overextend the cap through free agency, but you're also only a couple GOOD drafts away from resetting that. But either way, you also need smart veteran signings to make things work. Doesn't always have to be breaking the bank on the big names though.

 

[captain stone]

my question on the established guys over draft picks is the salary cap. Established guys cost more. You trade draft picks for established guys and you start throwing your salary cap off. I suppose there is some sort of idea roster construction balance between draft picks (1st contract), more expensive established guys, and cheap vets?

Yep, it all depends... How many draft picks you have, how close you are to being a Serious Contender, has a particular position group taken a sudden hit due to injury/retirement/defection etc... Gotta take it one situation at a time...

 

[jimnance]

40 times are not irrelevant, Deion Sanders, Barry Sanders, Randy Moss weren’t dangerous simply just because they were agile… they were stupid fast.

All our weapons and majority of our players have great agility, BB places a premium on it. Jakobi had it for his size, Juju has it… doesn’t change that when Meyers caught a ball and only had one direction to run, towards the end zone he was not fast.

I can’t believe this is an argument… it took him three years to score his first career TD and the entire team was rooting for him. By WR standards he was slow.

Geez,dude,give it up.
I responded to you originally saying there wasn't an  appreciable difference in meyers and jujus speed. 4.54 and 4.63.
Thats less than a tenth of a second.
Not an appreciable difference. You were overstating the case, which I pointed out.
Yes juju is a little faster not a  lot faster.
But speed is only one element.
Overall there's not much difference between the two. You're wrong. You can keep arguing with yourself but I'm done.

 

[patfanken]

Geez,dude,give it up.
I responded to you originally saying there wasn't an  appreciable difference in meyers and jujus speed. 4.54 and 4.63.
Thats less than a tenth of a second.
Not an appreciable difference. You were overstating the case, which I pointed out.
Yes juju is a little faster not a  lot faster.
But speed is only one element.
Overall there's not much difference between the two. You're wrong. You can keep arguing with yourself but I'm done.

No a tenth of a second isn't very long in relative time, but in football time it CAN be significant. It could mean the difference between one foot of separation vs 3.

But listen Jim, no one is saying that there is a huge difference between Jacobi and Juju. Both have been very productive receivers over the years, but you only have to watch the tape to see that Juju is quicker, twitchier, sudden, whatever adjectives you want to use, AND a lot stronger after the catch. He also offers more position flexibility. The only real negative I see here is that Jacobi was a model Patriot who was another great UDFA who bought into the program and made himself into a really good pro., while Juju can sometimes be a bit of an *******.

And just an aside that you can needle Wozzy with, Barry Sanders was a 4.6 forty guy. But a guy with unworldly acceleration. Now HE was 'sudden".

 

[crawhammer]

I know you're an instant results guy, so it is what it is. I don't know if you know this or not, but Edelman did essentially nothing from 2009 until 2013...so there is something to be said for having a little patience. Maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't. Doesn't hurt them to continue letting him compete.

Edelman wasn't wasting away on the practice squad and going unclaimed by 31 other teams (e.g. Tre Nixon). He also had 69 receptions and a dozen rushing attempts by 2013 when he took on an expanded role. And are we ignoring ST in this case? Edelman was actually filling an important ST role, getting his hands on the football regularly, returning punts and KO's. He had 8 TDs by 2013 (4 on ST's). Patience was warranted in Edelman's case, he showed flashes, and made significant contributions, from the start of his NFL career. We can't say the same for Nixon at all.

That was a hypothetical where if Meyers had the enhanced skillset of Moss's speed mixed with Meyers's ability to go up and make catches, fight for the ball, etc. Obviously, he doesn't, but it was just one of those "in a perfect world" where if you could cross a couple of players, etc. Not everything has to be black and white

Even hypotheticals need limitations. For instance, imagine if we combined Tre Nixon's zero baseline with the elite skillset of Jerry Rice's speed, route running, hands, and YAC?... well then we'd have Jerry Rice.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I haven't watched a lot on him, so I can't speak intelligently on this, but how do you feel about him vs Bourne? Because it sort of feels like that's how the team might look at things in terms of his role here when you watch him play:

Brandon Aiyuk's Top Plays from the 2022 season

Relive some of wide receiver Brandon Aiyuk's top highlights from the 2022 NFL season.

www.49ers.com

He catches a lot on crossers, quick throws, slants, etc. and he's great after the catch. Watching him in that regard, he looks similar to Bourne - or at least how Bourne looked in 2021. Although I would definitely say he's shifter, has quicker feet, etc.

I'm very familiar with him from college and the NFL. I had a 2nd on him and really thought he need to learn the position and to his credit he has and I was probably a little low on him.

He can play anywhere in a pinch bc of his physicality, burst and ability to beat you deep or turn a short gain into a big one. They made it a point to get him in the slot more recently bc hes so good after the catch. More Z than on the line but he can play anywhere. Versatile but effective. Blocks his butt off. You want some to crack? Take out emlos? Motion? Split Saf from slot/double slot with Bourne/JuJu? He can win horizontally or vertically. He's explosive, physical, very crafty rr that sets up his man on every different route. Whip, double move, slant, hes very makes it his own and is very hard to handle. Film guys like him, nerds like him.


Similar to Bourne but more Kupp play style while being able to win outside more. He's a big time player that likes the spotlight and stepped up many times when Deebo or Kittle or we was out.

Judging him solely on "these players had better years" is foolish with respect. That's just not how things work and lacks context. He's been in a run first offense that's had trouble passing at times during his stretch there. Not to mention he's behind some of the biggest target whores in football - Caff, Kittle, Deebo and outperformed all this year. Like Matt mentioned guys were hurt but he stepped up nonetheless and has produced before breaking out as a rookie.

We love versatile WR and he's that plus some. We have sheets full of double slot plays. Him, JuJu, Bourne would be quite the trio of big, quick, crafty slot runners.

I would offer 46 straight up. I would do 14 if they parted with 99 and 101 back. Use 46 + 99 to go up and get the best tackle available and let Mac cook.

 

[crawhammer]

Coaching matters. We saw that with the Jaguars and Giants.

You forgot the most obvious example from 2022... the Patriots

 

[Wozzy]

Not every but all of these...

Best WR corps in the NFL (top half roughly in order):

Cincinnati (Burrow) - Ja' Marr Chase, Tee Higgins, Tyler Boyd
Miami (Tua) - Tyreek Hill, Jaylen Waddle, Braxton Berrios
Philadelphia (Hurts) - A.J. Brown, DeVonta Smith, Quez Watkins
San Francisco - Deebo Samuel, Brandon Aiyuk, Jauan Jennings
Minnesota (Cousins) - Justin Jefferson, K.J. Osborn, Jalen Reagor
Buffalo (Allen) - Stefon Diggs, Gabe Davis, Khalil Shakir
LA Chargers (Herbert) - Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Joshua Palmer
Arizona (Murray) - DeAndre Hopkins, Marquise Brown, Rondale Moore
Seattle (Geno) - DK Metcalf, Tyler Lockett, Dee Eskridge
LV Raiders (Garoppolo) - Davante Adams, Jakobi Meyers, Hunter Renfrow
LA Rams (Stafford) - Cooper Kupp, Allen Robinson, Van Jefferson
Dallas (Dak) - CeeDee Lamb, Brandon Cooks, Michael Gallop
Tampa Bay (Mayfield) - Mike Evans, Chris Goodwin, Russell Gage
Denver (R. Wilson) - Jerry Jeudy, Courtland Sutton, Tim Patrick
NYJ (Rodgers) - Garrett Wilson, Corey Davis, Allen Lazard
Detroit (Goff) - Amon-Ra St. Brown, Josh Reynolds, Jameson Williams

Should the Patriots be wedged in there somewhere or are they in the bottom half?

NEP (Mac) - JuJu S-S, DeVante Parker, Kendrick Bourne

Here's NE WR group: Parker, Bourne, Juju, Thornton, Marcus Jones... convenient of you to leave these last two off. We also have 11 draft picks... do any of these ^ teams have that many.

The poster stated "bottom ten worst WR group".... you have 16 teams listed above, give us 6 more teams that have better WR groups that push the Patriots into the bottom ten.

Oh yeah, many of these teams above have one WR who is better than anyone single WR on our team... but our group as a whole is better than their group. The Raiders... lol, we just upgraded Jakobi to Juju, Hunter Renfrow disappeared last year. The 49ers have Deebo, nobody else they have is better than Juju or Parker. The Lions... has Jameson Williams proven more than Thornton or Marcus Jones has... not yet.

But I'll wait for 6 more teams that have better WR units than us... and for god sakes lets not include TE's or that will push us into the top ten receiver group.

 

[Wozzy]

You forgot the most obvious example from 2022... the Patriots

That was literally what we were talking about.

 

[Wozzy]

Geez,dude,give it up.
I responded to you originally saying there wasn't an  appreciable difference in meyers and jujus speed. 4.54 and 4.63.
Thats less than a tenth of a second.
Not an appreciable difference. You were overstating the case, which I pointed out.
Yes juju is a little faster not a  lot faster.
But speed is only one element.
Overall there's not much difference between the two. You're wrong. You can keep arguing with yourself but I'm done.

Yeah... if two cars are racing towards a finish line, and one car is faster than the other... who arrives first?

But I'm wrong... science isn't real, this is the current world we're living in. Facts are malleable.

 

[n6249c]

Yeah... if two cars are racing towards a finish line, and one car is faster than the other... who arrives first?

But I'm wrong... science isn't real, this is the current world we're living in. Facts are malleable.

Depends on whether the wheels fall off.

 

[Wozzy]

Depends on whether the wheels fall off.

Players need to stay healthy, that describes 100% of the players in the NFL.

 

[Triumph]

They went from 6th in the league in points per game and 10th in 3rd down efficiency in 2021 to 17th and 27th, respectively. That's a massive drop off with essentially the same personnel, so it's clearly a direct correlation to their issues with the offense. And it's also no coincidence that Mac Jones's two best quarters of the season were the 1st and 3rd quarter, (74.4% comp, 68.1%), which was obviously with the early game script and coming out of the locker room after halftime.

The 2021 season is flawed.

Not every win has the same value. The Jets, Jags and Browns games skewed the numbers to look better than they are in reality. Reality paid a visit in the playoffs vs the Bills. Macs big 3 pass victory could not help him. Eventually you get exposed.

Patricia couldn't adjust on the fly as the game evolved, which was an issue all season. So yes, an experienced guy like O'Brien will definitely improve that. Say what you want about his time in Houston, but like McDaniels, he was a solid coordinator here and likely will be again. How he performed on his own as a head coach is something we've already learned doesn't mean much as things seem to go better for them here with Belichick. And I'm not a massive fan on Watson and the verdict is still out on him. So that may end up being a bad example. And you say his teams sucked with Jones types of QBs, but those are the types of guys he reached the postseason with ... so ... I don't know about that.

Its true, Hoyer, Mallet, Fitzpatrick only brought losing.

Watson and Hopkins delivered offensive numbers and wins. But the great BOB still got fired.

It's not a "homer" thing, it's simply the fact that last year was last year and rather than just say "they stink" and focus on being miserable for the next four months, it certainly makes for better discussion if we look at it analytically. I also would have preferred Meyers, but at least they replaced him and brought in Smith-Schuster, who does give them a couple of dynamics that Meyers didn't have. And I'm assuming they're going to put more on Bourne, who I would say is probably one of my biggest question marks depending on whether or not he can get back to 2021 levels.

It is homersim.

Every FA is going to be a Star. Go back and look at when Jonnu and Henry came on board. Check out when Thornton was drafted.

Meanwhile, Gesicki adds another dimension they've been lacking, and just having him draw coverage will help make the other guys more productive. They need to get guys into more one-on-one match-ups, which will allow them to make plays in space and hopefully create some bigger opportunities. They've got both Stevenson, Robinson and Strong, who are all terrific catching the ball out of the backfield and we already saw what Strong can do when they get him out there with room to run after the catch. The guy is crazy fast.

We will see.

There were stretches last season where Jonnu and Henry were ignored.

Obviously, Thornton is the other question, but I think they'll use him better and it seems like they feel somewhat confident coming out of last year's draft to potentially target another wideout. So that option also appears to be there after there just wasn't anyone else to target given how the trade market evolved. At the same time, that could still change as teams made moves during the draft last year, so who knows?

Maybe this will be the year when the Pats get the WR pick right.

At best its a 50 - 50 shot and those odds are generous because the Pats have shown that they have no clue who to draft when it comes to WR.

But I thought @mgteich made some great points in his OP, and again, it's basically trying to look at things through a better lens. Addressing the offensive line is really the biggest key to the whole thing, as it was one of their biggest issues last season. I feel like they've already added some good depth, and I won't be disappointed if they grab another tackle in round one next month.

Needless to say, things like this are reasons why most of us are trying to look at things a little differently. I get you sort of hate everything at this point, Mac included, but it's basically a case of "we have who we have." They'll continue drafting guys behind him and exploring their options, so that will play itself out regardless. Still, they had a terrific defense last year and could have gone farther if the offense didn't fall to near the bottom of the league due to the issues I already mentioned. Even if they had been average, as bad as it was, they still might have won 10 games. So knowing that, there's reason to believe they'll be better, and that's not a "homer" thing - it's a numbers thing. You obviously don't have to agree, but at the same time, being a little less negative wouldn't be a bad thing, either.

The bottom line is that you must have a good QB to win.

You cant blame BOB when he is the guy that you clamored for.

 

[Wozzy]

The 2021 season is flawed.

Not every win has the same value. The Jets, Jags and Browns games skewed the numbers to look better than they are in reality. Reality paid a visit in the playoffs vs the Bills. Macs big 3 pass victory could not help him. Eventually you get exposed.

What a load of made up nonsense. They came within a missed field goal of beating the Super Bowl champions that season. They lost a game because Damien Harris fumbled on the goal line. 2021 wasn’t flawed, your foolish argument is.

Watson and Hopkins delivered offensive numbers and wins. But the great BOB still got fired.

Young coaches get fired all the time. Great coordinators often don’t make good head coaches or need to grow and learn how to be one…. like developing players. Obie won his division four times, he’s a good coach. It’s hard to win in the NFL.

It is homersim.

Not being a troll isn’t the same as homerism.

Every FA is going to be a Star. Go back and look at when Jonnu and Henry came on board. Check out when Thornton was drafted.

Gilmore, Rodney Harrison and Marty Bennett were free agents also. Thornton was drafted.

The bottom line is that you must have a good QB to win.

Nick Foles, Joe Flacco, Brad Johnson all have rings on their fingers, Eli has two… we need a good QB. QB hasn’t been why we lost the last two years, the team simply wasn’t good enough.

 

[Triumph]

What a load of made up nonsense. They came within a missed field goal of beating the Super Bowl champions that season. They lost a game because Damien Harris fumbled on the goal line. 2021 wasn’t flawed, your foolish argument is.

Young coaches get fired all the time. Great coordinators often don’t make good head coaches or need to grow and learn how to be one…. like developing players. Obie won his division four times, he’s a good coach. It’s hard to win in the NFL.

Not being a troll isn’t the same as homerism.

Gilmore, Rodney Harrison and Marty Bennett were free agents also. Thornton was drafted.

Nick Foles, Joe Flacco, Brad Johnson all have rings on their fingers, Eli has two… we need a good QB. QB hasn’t been why we lost the last two years, the team simply wasn’t good enough.

The Homer's in their Mac Jones authentics will never see Corky Mac deliver a Super Bowl.

You wasted your money on that jersey.

 

[Keyser Söze]

we still need a WR defenses need to game plan against. Hoping BB gets Mac one of them at some point.

 

[Wozzy]

The Homer's in their Mac Jones authentics will never see Corky Mac deliver a Super Bowl.

You wasted your money on that jersey.

I don't buy jerseys.

And your ability to see the future is about as useful as a knuckle in my johnson.

 

[Boomer B]

Here's NE WR group: Parker, Bourne, Juju, Thornton, Marcus Jones... convenient of you to leave these last two off. We also have 11 draft picks... do any of these ^ teams have that many.

The poster stated "bottom ten worst WR group".... you have 16 teams listed above, give us 6 more teams that have better WR groups that push the Patriots into the bottom ten.

Oh yeah, many of these teams above have one WR who is better than anyone single WR on our team... but our group as a whole is better than their group. The Raiders... lol, we just upgraded Jakobi to Juju, Hunter Renfrow disappeared last year. The 49ers have Deebo, nobody else they have is better than Juju or Parker. The Lions... has Jameson Williams proven more than Thornton or Marcus Jones has... not yet.

But I'll wait for 6 more teams that have better WR units than us... and for god sakes lets not include TE's or that will push us into the top ten receiver group.

Are you serious? You really think our WR corp is better than the Raiders and the 49ers?

 

[Wozzy]

Are you serious? You really think our WR corp is better than the Raiders and the 49ers?

Ask me after the draft.

The Raiders ranked 29th in passing yards last year with the same group, only Waller is gone now.

You "weapons" guys think everyone else is better... and execution, coordinator, QB, offensive line are just a by product of weapons.

It's a horrible football take.

The Raiders sucked last year with (Waller) better weapons. How are they better now?