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The defense is not that bad


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Um, they are bending and breaking. Patriots lost the Superbowl because they couldn't get off the field on defense, offense didn't have the ball enough times.


Turnovers are awesome, they are part of football. However, you cannot rely on them to consistently win games. Especially without a serious pass rush.
 
Whats your point?
There's alot more to defense than just turnovers as evident by the New England Patriots record this season against teams with winning records (1-2) despite collectively winning the turnover battle in those three games by a margin of 6-3.
 
Points my man points actually scoring is what wins and loses you games. and bottom line is the offense did not score its usual amount in either of the last two Super Bowls.

Minimizing points scored against it is the ultimate job of any defense, but it's not it's only job. Giving possession of the ball back to the offense and maintaining or improving field position are the other two.

One reason the Patriots' offense didn't "score it's usual amount" in either of the last 2 Super Bowls is because the defense failed miserably in getting the ball back for the offense and in not losing field position.

When you play against good defenses, it sure helps to not go 5-6 minutes at a time between possessions and a short field now and then doesn't hurt the cause either.

It's called complimentary football. The Patriots' offense sure overcomes many of the defenses' shortcomings. But, asking it to do so against the 3 or 4 good teams they must beat to win a Super Bowl, is asking a whole lot.
 
I agree with many of the posts in this thread.

However, I really think this emphasis on the schemes being wrong discounts what they have accomplished. This team is hampered in its pass defense by the lack of at least one real animal DE on the pass rush, a LB core that is not particularly adept at coverage and a painfully bad secondary that has to play soft for fear of being beaten deep. BB is making some sacrifices in pass defense particularly to keep from being run on extensively by opponents.

Sure we are producing ugly wins when we win. However, if you really want to see this team struggle, see what happens if BB puts guys on the field that allow teams to run all over them. Instead of talking about 6-3 and ugly wins you will be talking about 4-5 or worse and ugly losses. BB knows that this team is not great against the run but if he keeps his run stoppers out there he can at least control most teams in their running game. His run stoppers are also hard hitters capable of forcing fumbles during either running plays or pass plays. He can force teams to beat them with their QB's. While this is now a pass happy league there are actually very few QB's out there that will not eventually screw up, often without even being pressured to do so. Do most Pats interceptions look like a super athletic play by a DB or does it look more like the QB makes a poor throw with the DB at least close enough to make a play on the ball?

So BB forces turnovers and controls the opponents running game so that his real asset, his offense is not sitting on the sidelines stewing as much as it would be otherwise. Look at how many offensive plays teams are getting on the Pats even with the way BB is playing it, leaving his run stoppers on the field. What the heck do we think would happen if teams were really running wild on the Pats....a very real possibility. Look, it is not like the Pats are top 5 in the league against the run. They are 9th against the run while being 29th against the pass. They are 9th against the run with Vince taking 80% of the snaps on D, Love taking 60% and Spikes and Mayo taking closer to 90% of the snaps on D.

So that is the real genius in what BB is doing with the talent that he has. He realizes that while he can put a combination of players out there that will likely be better in pass coverage, the guys he has for that purpose are truly weak against the run and will end up being run over by even mediocre running games.

What we need especially in the post season where everything including generating turnovers becomes more difficult is more physically athletic, talented players. Schemes rarely win those games anymore. A key play or plays one way or the other, mainly plays that physically talented, athletic players make are the difference.

Do we really think the Giants dialed up a play that called for a receiver to pin a football against his helmut to win that SB? That was a play made by a talented physical, athletic specimen. Coming down the stretch of last year's SB did it look like we were being out-schemed or did it look like the Giants had more physically talented, athletic players making plays for them?

In my view what BB and his coaches are doing with this defense is pretty remarkable. But by the same token BB the GM is making it pretty tough on BB the coach to succeed. He needs more physically athletic players on his defense. He needs one more really hard rushing DE (completely agree with Parcells there). He needs a multifunctional LB to play with Spikes and Mayo, somebody that can actually cover somebody and he REALLY need more physically athletic players in his secondary. The modern NFL with its rules changes will simply not allow much success for the prototypical BB defensive back.

Maybe Talib will be enough. He is big for a CB. He is surely more athletic than the CB's that they have. Maybe he will be enough at least in the secondary. I would bet they will need one more physically athletic player back there plus the guys I talked about for the d-line and LB. That could be enough to get to and win the SB.
 
:)

The best offensive team in the history of the nfl cannot score 18 points and the fault is 100% on the defense.

One of the best offensive teams of all time, averaging over 30 points per game is held to 17 points and the fault is 100% on the defense.

Everyone is entitled to their perspective. IMHO, the defense could have bailed the offense out and won both games. However, if the offense had played at their best, neither game would have been a contest. Is it really too much to expect a top offense led by the one of the best quarterbacks in nfl history to have good, solid (maybe even great) Super Bowl games?
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As an aside, much of the lost last year can be put on the team not having backup TE's (Gronkowski being out was devastating) and not having any nil quality safeties on the squad (well, we had one OK safety on the 53).
 
Minimizing points scored against it is the ultimate job of any defense, but it's not it's only job. Giving possession of the ball back to the offense and maintaining or improving field position are the other two.

One reason the Patriots' offense didn't "score it's usual amount" in either of the last 2 Super Bowls is because the defense failed miserably in getting the ball back for the offense and in not losing field position.

When you play against good defenses, it sure helps to not go 5-6 minutes at a time between possessions and a short field now and then doesn't hurt the cause either.

It's called complimentary football. The Patriots' offense sure overcomes many of the defenses' shortcomings. But, asking it to do so against the 3 or 4 good teams they must beat to win a Super Bowl, is asking a whole lot.

That knife cuts both ways though. The offense in the past two SBs was pretty awful when it wasn't scoring, and when you're not scoring much you better do something else.

In '08:
9yd 1:49 drive result: Giants @ Giants' 36
-14yd 1:41 drive result: Giants @ Giants' 43
33yd 1:35 drive result: turnover Giants @ Pats' 49
20yd 1:29 drive result: Giants @ Giants' 29

In '12:
-6yd 0:08 drive result: safety Giants @ Giants' 22
9yd 1:27 drive result: Giants @ Giants' 23
-2yd 0:31 drive result: Giants @ Pats' 48
18yd 1:04 drive result: INT Giants @ Giants' 8

That's a whole lot of negative drives for games with limited touches. The truth is that last year both units had one of their worst games of the season and in '08 the offense had one of their worst games and the defense had a below average game.
 
I think you are completely missing my point.

This is basically what you are assesing.

Good teams will turn the ball over less so it is more important to be able to cause punts/3 and outs and the like.

End of story, so I don't know why you were arguing with my post.

but ignoring that the opposite could be said too.

Good teams show the ability to sustain long drives and punt less and go 3 and out less so it is more important to be able to turn the ball over.

No, it can't be said too. Again, turnovers, particularly fumble recoveries, are basically random.


I would like to add that in the last 2 Super Bowls which unit do you think preformed more like its regular season version the offense or the defense?
Thats right in the last 2 SuperBowls it has been the offense that has under preformed based on its regular season performances. So this idea that in order to get over the SuperBowl hunt we need to come up with some magic formula on defense that has us all the sudden being the 85 Bears is lame. As a whole this team needs to continue to improve but IMO there is more than enough talent on both sides to get it done and the formulas they have been using to get them to the superbowls can and will work in the Super Bowl if both sides of the ball would play up to their abilities as they were proven throughout the season.

This has nothing to do with my post, so I'll leave it at that.
 
The Patriots pass defense statistics, 2012:

Opp Comp %: 66.0% (26th)
Opp Yds/Att: 8.1 (29th)
Opp Pass TD: 19 (29th)
Opp Passer Rating: 97.3 (28th)
Opp Pass Yds/G: 285 (29th)

In other words, the Pats have one of the worst four pass defenses in the NFL, pretty much by every metric available. What they do have going for them is this:

(1) They force a lot of turnovers: 10 INT (6th) and 13 FUM (the 23 takeaways is #3 in the NFL).

(2) They are actually not bad at sacking the QB: 20 (16th). So those two things

(especially the turnovers) mask their pass defense deficiencies, believe it or not. If they were even an average team in getting turnovers, the pass defense numbers would look even worse.



You make the point I see other fail to make with this post. On those stats you mention they are on of the 4 worst past defenses in the league. What I'm waiting for is people to recognize that this is an IMPROVEMENT. Last season at this time they were absolutely the WORST. Now they aren't. It isn't good but its an improvement. Recognize it.

The other point you make well is where they stand in sacks (the middle) and TO's (#3) can't be separated from judging the defense as a whole.

So what do we know (all too well) about our defense. Its not good at this point, but its better than last season, and not as universally bad as the media would like use to believe.
 
Again, turnovers, particularly fumble recoveries, are basically random.

This I can't agree with. The percentage of forced fumbles that you recover, that's pretty random. But forcing fumbles and getting interceptions? You HAVE to give a defense credit for those. Baiting a QB into an INT is an art form for some CB's, and very few ball carriers simply fumble for no reason. Someone is usually punching the ball out (or laying the player out completely), which is what they're coached to do.
 
This I can't agree with. The percentage of forced fumbles that you recover, that's pretty random. But forcing fumbles and getting interceptions? You HAVE to give a defense credit for those. Baiting a QB into an INT is an art form for some CB's, and very few ball carriers simply fumble for no reason. Someone is usually punching the ball out (or laying the player out completely), which is what they're coached to do.

A forced fumble isn't a turnover.
 
It's a forced turnover. There's nothing wrong with that but it's the whole point. With the exception of one drive, the Bills either scored, got turned over, or stopped themselves with penalties. Even the one "clean" drive had a Bills penalty in it. I just didn't count it because it wasn't the type that takes a 3rd and 1 and makes it a 3rd and 11 (it took a 3rd and 16 and made it a 3rd and 19).

The Patriots have trouble making clean stops. If they don't turn an opponent over, they're in big trouble.
I'm pretty sure the strip sack was on 3rd down so its a stop without the fumble too.
 
A forced fumble isn't a turnover.

Right, but assuming an average recovery rate (we'll say 50% for statistical argument), the more you force, the more you recover. I don't think you should shortchange the defense on a play where they force a fumble and recover it, simply because it's possible they couldn't have recovered it.
 
If the defense cannot get a stop when it needs it, it's not a good defense. Why overanalyze it?
 
Right, but assuming an average recovery rate (we'll say 50% for statistical argument), the more you force, the more you recover. I don't think you should shortchange the defense on a play where they force a fumble and recover it, simply because it's possible they couldn't have recovered it.

How is pointing out the obvious shortchanging the defense? This defense struggles to get stops. If it can't turn the opponent over, it's in big trouble. It turned Buffalo over 6 times in the first meeting and still allowed 28 points. In 9 games, only 3 opponents have been held under their season scoring averages (Rams, Broncos, Titans). Yes, turnovers are important, but if you're counting on them, you're eventually going to lose, because there's going to come a time when you don't get them. As I pointed out, the Patriots haven't won the turnover battle in a playoff game since the Jaguars game in 2007.
 
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Point well taken about the lack of performance from the offense in the last two SB's. As for Gronk being half strength...maybe they should not have gone to this dependency on a TE offense when they did not have enough TE's to support it? Maybe a bigger target than Welker would have pulled down that slightly off target pass from TB?


Maybe in 08' a better offensive effort would have sealed the game away. My point is that in those minutes when the game was being won or lost, the Giants were making more athletic plays both on offense and defense than the Pats were making. Since it was the Pats defense on the field in both cases when those two games were lost, the inability to make physical, athletic plays in the defense is more telling to me. It is more important anyway because a good part about defense is reaction. If as a defender you are not as physically capable of making plays as another defender, the other defender is likely better than you are.

When the games where there to be won, in both cases, the Pats had the lead in the 4th quarter and needed the defense to make a stop but could not stop the opponent's offense. Further my point is that schemes is not what let them down just I like I don't think schemes are letting them down now. I think coach BB is doing one heck of a job with what he has. They need more athletic players...guys that can make plays. Heck if we could make plays in the secondary we would actually have more takeaways than we have now!
 
I must be watching different Patriots games this year. I wouldn't even think of arguing that this defense isn't that bad. It's horrible.

I agree that, if they didn't force turnovers, this defense would be even worse. Without the turnovers, the defense would stink to historical, if not biblical, levels of awful. :rocker:

I also agree that the run defense has been pretty good. Unfortunately, even badly coached opponents generally figure out by halftime that they should just throw the ball.

I cringe when the opponent gets a holding penalty because 3rd & 15 or 3rd & 20 are such favorable down and distance combos against the Pats defense. I'd almost rather see them in 3rd & 3, where they might consider actually trying to run the ball instead of throw it to a wide open receiver.
 
You make the point I see other fail to make with this post. On those stats you mention they are on of the 4 worst past defenses in the league. What I'm waiting for is people to recognize that this is an IMPROVEMENT. Last season at this time they were absolutely the WORST. Now they aren't. It isn't good but its an improvement. Recognize it.
The New England Patriots pass defense was ranked 31st last season not 32nd.

NFL Football Stats - NFL Team Opponent Passing Yards per Game on TeamRankings.com

2011 NFL Season - Opponent Passing Yards per Game

Green Bay - 301.2 yards/game; New England - 282.9 yards/game

2012 NFL Season - Opponent Passing Yards per Game

Green Bay - 243.6 yards/game; New England - 285.3 yards/game
 
I don't know what is a running down anymore. Heck we won't run to get two yards. Two yards?????gotta air it out!!!!:):)
 
I think you're in the 1% on that. Heh heh, see what I did there?
 
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