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The defense is not that bad

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by 1%er, Nov 13, 2012.

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  1. 1%er

    1%er Banned

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    We run a fast pace no huddle offense which = lest rest time for are defense.
    We score a ton of points which = opponents need to throw the ball more.
    We force teams to play from behind which = opponents take more chances and attempt more big plays.

    Despite all of that are defense still goes out and stops the run and forces turnovers.

    We have Jones, Hightower, Dennard and Wilson as rookies playing key roles.

    Lets stop acting like the sky is falling. The NFL is competitive top to bottom and I don't know any team that completely shuts down passing games in this day and age.
  2. Major **********

    Major ********** Rookie

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    How bad is "not that bad'?
  3. Sicilian

    Sicilian Rookie

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    The defense isn't good, but as has been the norm the last few years, they're middle of the pack in allowing points despite being near the bottom in yards allowed. I'm willing to give them time to see how the rookies do in the second half, see how Talib fits in, and I'll them a pass on the poor tackling against the Bills because A) they've been solid tacklers most of this year and B) with the new rules and lack of padded practices, I feel like a bye week wreaks havoc on the fundamentals.

    The big key to the second half defense will be, do the rookies playing those key roles continue to get more comfortable? Or do they hit a rookie wall?
  4. brdmaverick

    brdmaverick Rookie

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    If making Russell Wilson, Mark Sanchez, Joe Flacco and Ryan Fitzpatrick look like Pro Bowlers (instead of Hall of Famers) is 'not that bad' then I would agree.
  5. Dfresh429

    Dfresh429 Rookie

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    Sorry man, but on at least 6 out of 10 completions, there isn't at Patriots defender within 3 yards...their pass coverage is pathetic.
  6. brdmaverick

    brdmaverick Rookie

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    Ok, apologies for the sly remark, now the serious one.......

    I get where you are going where there are positivies (Jones, Wilfork, Spikes, Mayo) but those positives do not outweigh the negatives.

    Case in point, if the defense wasn't that bad, we all wouldn't have had that gut wrenching feeling when the offense had to settle for the field goal late against the Bills. Despite there being only 2 minutes left and Buffalo needing a full 80 yards, there was NO CONFIDENCE of victory even a normal team would have that in this situation.

    I do by into the theory that the defense is only as good as it's weakest link (ok, or two links, since you can use double teams). The defense has a solid front seven, but it getting burnt because of the secondary. IF only one or two guys step up they CAN turn it around. Talib is expected to be one of those guys, we need another (hopefully McCourty, maybe a heatlhy Chung), to play better. If assessing this defense solely on what we've seen so far though, yes, they are THAT bad.
  7. FCB02062

    FCB02062 Rookie

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    Grape or Fruit Punch Kool-Aid? :rolleyes:
  8. ivanvamp

    ivanvamp Rookie

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    The Patriots pass defense statistics, 2012:

    Opp Comp %: 66.0% (26th)
    Opp Yds/Att: 8.1 (29th)
    Opp Pass TD: 19 (29th)
    Opp Passer Rating: 97.3 (28th)
    Opp Pass Yds/G: 285 (29th)

    In other words, the Pats have one of the worst four pass defenses in the NFL, pretty much by every metric available. What they do have going for them is this:

    (1) They force a lot of turnovers: 10 INT (6th) and 13 FUM (the 23 takeaways is #3 in the NFL).

    (2) They are actually not bad at sacking the QB: 20 (16th).

    So those two things (especially the turnovers) mask their pass defense deficiencies, believe it or not. If they were even an average team in getting turnovers, the pass defense numbers would look even worse.
  9. Marqui

    Marqui Rookie

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    Shoot, I would take pathetic at this point. Their pass defense right now is almost non-existent.
  10. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Rookie

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    The defense isn't that bad compared to what, exactly?
  11. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #51 Jersey

    Yes, the defense is that bad. The greatest strength of the D is the Patriots O.
  12. Finnishfan

    Finnishfan Rookie

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    I COMPLETELY agree with all the ideas here.

    My problem with our defense is simple:

    On offense, we play better than our talent level indicates. That is partly TB and partly scheme, which both elevate certain individuals to a higher level.

    On defense, we do exactly the opposite. I don't think our talent level sucks. When I watch individual players on replays and study their play, we have some really good players here. But our schemes suck and we lack passion.

    1) Schemes suck = BB and Patricia take the blame. Mostly BB.

    The philosophy of disguising coverages (which is what BB's HOF gameplan from SB XXV is strongly based upon) is so hard to execute in modern football, becouse it requires MASSIVE talent. Back in 1990, any scrub could play CB and do a decent job, becouse you could grab and pull jerseys all you wanted.

    These days good DBs are usually specialists, who excel in man or zone, press or off, inside or outside, but not in all of them. There are only few guys in this league that I can think of, who do a decent job on all coverage roles/schemes with these modern rules.

    We dont have any of them here.

    Also the "win by coverage" approach is an outdated concept, because thanks to all the rule changes, QBs can now fit the balls into tighter windows than ever and they don't have to worry about protecting the receiver. Goodell handles the protection duties these days. Back in 1990, QBs didnt throw into tight coverages becouse they were afraid that the DB or Safety would pop the receivers head off. Back then, the "defenseless receiver" didn't exist even as a joke.

    The pass rushing schemes have never interested BB, at least not in a way that would have shown up. But if you ask anyone about the current list of great defensive coordinators in the league, you will hear Dick Lebeau, Wade Phillips, Dom Capers, Steve Spagnuolo and even the Ryan Brothers. They all put as much emphasis on pass rushing schemes as they do on coverage schemes, perhaps even more.

    Now I don't know how long of a "leash" BB has on Patricia, but since this problem existed before Patricia, I'm not ready to put most of the blame on him. Especially since BB is known for his coverage emphasis.

    2) Lack of passions = the new Patriot way takes the blame.

    The big reason is the atmosphere of professionalism we have in the building. "Just do your job", like we have heard BB say so often. That works ok with the offense, becouse they dont need to make bang-bang plays to do well. Defense needs the angry bird -hormones and kamikaze mentality every now and then to install fear to the opponents.

    IMO, 1 dumb penalty every now and then is ok, if you also deliver lots of hard and clean hits. That was also the old Patriot way, when we have Rodney Harrison and Tedy Bruschi playing on the borderline of dirty and hard. But with the new Patriot way, 1 dumb penalty might be enough for a trip to the doghouse.

    The locker room and player interviews they dont show the true passion and aggression they used to, instead they always make it look like its offseason.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  13. Kenneth Sims

    Kenneth Sims Rookie

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    Thank you so much Finnishfan! You said everything I've wanted to say on the subject but lacked the coherency to do so.
  14. Marqui

    Marqui Rookie

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    Great post. Bill should hire Rex to be his D coordinator when he gets fired next year :D
  15. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm probably less despondent about the defense than most.

    My take:

    1. Against Buffalo the defense was indeed THAT bad ... but that was 1 game. I'm going to assume rust coming off a bye week, being flat, problems matching up with Buffalo's quick backs and unorthodox offense, and the coaching staff persisting in using a soft zone which gave huge holes.

    2. Our pass defense has indeed been THAT bad all season. But, as I've argued in detail elsewhere, the move of McCourty to FS plus having a guy in Talib who allows the Pats to play press-man with a cover-1 should allow for significant improvement - if the coaching staff will give up the soft zone nonsense.

    3. With 1 and 2 in mind, the overall defense has been average over the first 8 games, and only average because the terrible pass defense dragged it down. The run defense and turnover production have been excellent.

    It's clear to me that 2 things need to change for the defense to get better:

    1. Stop playing soft zone coverage and go to press-man with a deep cover-1 FS. To me that means Talib and Dennard outside (NO Arrington, please!) and McCourty as the deep FS.

    2. Get more pressure up front. In theory, #1 should facilitate #2, if the coaches are willing to stop being do conservative.
  16. brdmaverick

    brdmaverick Rookie

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    1%er, your username is extremely applicable because I would imagine only 1% of Pats fans agree with your assessment of the defense.
  17. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Am I the only one who sees the irony in your 'proof' that the defense stinks is that they stopped the final drive of the game but you were worried and had no confidence?
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  18. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I keep hearing this cry for aggressive man to man defense. I keep wondering how you solve the problem that we can't cover long enough for the pass rush to get there, by exposing those same defenders to man coverage across the entire field, when they are struggling in zone.
    Zone with no pressure is a completion, man with no pressure is a big play.
  19. Kenneth Sims

    Kenneth Sims Rookie

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    I'm optimistic that things will improve as well. I posted yesterday that I believe Belichick knows what he has to do to improve his pass defense. The question is whether he will allow himself to do it. The big test will be how the patriots defend spread formations with their nickel and dime schemes. They have a tendency to spook themselves and back off in these situations loosening the coverage and reducing the rush. They have to keep being aggressive having enough people around the LOS causing the confusion needed to boost the rush and tight enough coverage to not allow receivers to quickly become open.
  20. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Rookie

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    If the corners are jamming the receivers at the line wont that give the line more time to get to the QB?
  21. ThatllMoveTheChains!!!

    ThatllMoveTheChains!!! Rookie

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    I've agreed with your first point in prior seasons, but this season I don't think it's correct (overall). The revamped running game has allowed the offense to operate more efficiently when not scoring cutting down on TOs and 3 and outs, so despite the quick pace of the offense they're rarely hurting the defense.

    There's some basis to the rest of this though, but only in so much that it ensures teams attack the Pats' weaknesses aggressively. If the Pats were good in coverage these gambles by the other team would be just that. There's a reason teams opt not to play so aggressively most of the time. I think it's very fair to say that teams would let off a bit if the offense wasn't pushing them, which would result in a slight decrease in the lofty passing stats, but this would most likely cause the TOs to drop as well.

    All in all I think the defense is about as bad as they appear I'd say low teens, but that isn't the end of the world. There's also plenty of reason to be optimistic since there are better pieces in play this season and an upgrade to one of the major weaknesses on the way.
  22. Kenneth Sims

    Kenneth Sims Rookie

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    This is very true, but it is the risk you have to take. I'll throw a bone to those who say the problem is personnel - they are partially correct. The Patriots do not have the rushers to consistently pressure the QB with a straight 4 man rush nor do they have the talent or experience in the secondary needed to maintain coverage without an effective pass rush. But, they do have enough talent to have a better defense if they start taking away the easy passes and increase the degree of difficulty on the opponents offense.

    So, you have to take a little more risk knowing you have an offense that can answer any big play if it has the time to do so. Plus, it's not like they haven't been allowing more than their fair share of big plays playing cover-2.
  23. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Disable Jersey

    The defense had one "clean" stop against Buffalo (drive stopped and punt forced, not because of penalties on offense, scores by offense, or turnovers). This is probably not the week to be telling people that the defense isn't that bad, because it certainly was "that bad" on Sunday.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  24. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    Pats Hall Of Famers,Ty Law and Troy Brown publicly came out this week and called the defense pathetic and pitiful and we now have blind fans in here who think they are right that the defense is not that bad ....wake up dude,our defense flat out sucks and those 2 guys are right.

    If Brady has a bad game this team is done for that particular game,this defense is not capable of winning a game on their own by taking over when their franchise player is struggling.

    1 BAD Game from Brady = into 1 loss
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  25. sevengables_2207

    sevengables_2207 Rookie

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    The pass defense yardage is bad, yes, but the run defense has been pretty solid and the defense leads the league in turnover differential (+16). They have even recovered more fumbles forced than Da Bears hyped unit.

    Are there things that irk me about the defense? Sure, nothing is perfect. However, there are many teams struggling to defend the pass in the league, which happens to be pass-happy/quarterback-friendly thanks to certain points of emphasis manifest by the CC several years ago. That does not make it okay to struggle defending the pass, but I tend to view this as a growing pains type of scenario on defense. It takes time. It took time in the mid-to-late 1990s with players who became really good on defense.

    I feel that this defense is pretty similar to last year's unit statistically, albiet with better talent in the front seven. With the addition of Talib, hopefully they can steadily improve and play their best heading into the post-season.
  26. RodThePat

    RodThePat Rookie

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    Brady had a good game Sunday and it almost amounted to a loss. In 2003/2004, if Brady played poorly, we were hard pressed to win. Now, unless he plays completely lights out, we could still lose, even when he is by no means bad.
  27. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    IF you can play solid press-man with your corners and either bump receivers off their routes and/or cover your man effectively, it should buy a bit more time for the pass rush. A good deep safety should help reduce the collateral damage in case of misses. But you're entirely correct, trying to play press man with personnel who can't press and can't cover their man long enough to be effective, or without adequate help over the top, is probably not a good idea. Which is why I never advocated doing it was Arrington outside and Chung as a deep FS.
  28. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not disagreeing with your basic point, but the Wilfork strip sack should be counted as a clean stop.
  29. patsfaninpa

    patsfaninpa Rookie

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    Even dumber than the OP's hypothesis. We took 3 dumb personal fouls on Sunday.

    1. Spikes helmet hit on Fitzpatrick.

    2. Dennard tackling player 5 yards out of bounds.

    3. Mayo pile driving player 5 yards out of bounds.


    How did that work out for us? Think Buffalo was a scared??
  30. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    I saw it. Who cared what gut wrenching feeling you(original poster) got. The D caused the turnover and won the game. Oh and by the way if you have been paying attention the D has shown it can cause the turnover late in key moments several times this year off the top of my head another one that comes to mind is the fumble Spikes caused vs Zona that Ghost missed the kick to blow that one.

    who the hell cares about clean? penalties can often be caused by the de for instance a holding Jones that knocks them back could have prevented a sack to ignore that as being a dirty way to stop a drive is stupid. But even more foolish is to pretend a clean stop is somehow better then a turnover as a clean stop will end in a punt and shift in field position with a turnover you get the ball right there.

    ---

    I think people get way to indepth sometimes when trying to analyze things our defense is great against the run and average at pass rushing and below average to well below average in coverage. But our defense is also well above average in turnovers. Now pay attention because here is where the key comes in all of that adds up and combined with our ridiculous offense it creates wins at more than twice the rate of losses?

    Basically your D only needs to be as good as your offense needs it to be.

    are there problems? of course every team has their issues and the key is being able to overcome/mask them or just catch the right opponents in the playoffs.

    Can our problems be overcome/masked? We do have a talented DB coming in to help and McCourty playing safety can make a difference too.
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