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The defense is not that bad

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by 1%er, Nov 13, 2012.

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  1. 1%er

    1%er Banned

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    We run a fast pace no huddle offense which = lest rest time for are defense.
    We score a ton of points which = opponents need to throw the ball more.
    We force teams to play from behind which = opponents take more chances and attempt more big plays.

    Despite all of that are defense still goes out and stops the run and forces turnovers.

    We have Jones, Hightower, Dennard and Wilson as rookies playing key roles.

    Lets stop acting like the sky is falling. The NFL is competitive top to bottom and I don't know any team that completely shuts down passing games in this day and age.
     
  2. Major **********

    Major ********** Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    How bad is "not that bad'?
     
  3. Sicilian

    Sicilian Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    The defense isn't good, but as has been the norm the last few years, they're middle of the pack in allowing points despite being near the bottom in yards allowed. I'm willing to give them time to see how the rookies do in the second half, see how Talib fits in, and I'll them a pass on the poor tackling against the Bills because A) they've been solid tacklers most of this year and B) with the new rules and lack of padded practices, I feel like a bye week wreaks havoc on the fundamentals.

    The big key to the second half defense will be, do the rookies playing those key roles continue to get more comfortable? Or do they hit a rookie wall?
     
  4. brdmaverick

    brdmaverick In the Starting Line-Up

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    If making Russell Wilson, Mark Sanchez, Joe Flacco and Ryan Fitzpatrick look like Pro Bowlers (instead of Hall of Famers) is 'not that bad' then I would agree.
     
  5. Dfresh429

    Dfresh429 Practice Squad Player

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    Sorry man, but on at least 6 out of 10 completions, there isn't at Patriots defender within 3 yards...their pass coverage is pathetic.
     
  6. brdmaverick

    brdmaverick In the Starting Line-Up

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    Ok, apologies for the sly remark, now the serious one.......

    I get where you are going where there are positivies (Jones, Wilfork, Spikes, Mayo) but those positives do not outweigh the negatives.

    Case in point, if the defense wasn't that bad, we all wouldn't have had that gut wrenching feeling when the offense had to settle for the field goal late against the Bills. Despite there being only 2 minutes left and Buffalo needing a full 80 yards, there was NO CONFIDENCE of victory even a normal team would have that in this situation.

    I do by into the theory that the defense is only as good as it's weakest link (ok, or two links, since you can use double teams). The defense has a solid front seven, but it getting burnt because of the secondary. IF only one or two guys step up they CAN turn it around. Talib is expected to be one of those guys, we need another (hopefully McCourty, maybe a heatlhy Chung), to play better. If assessing this defense solely on what we've seen so far though, yes, they are THAT bad.
     
  7. FCB02062

    FCB02062 Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Grape or Fruit Punch Kool-Aid? :rolleyes:
     
  8. ivanvamp

    ivanvamp In the Starting Line-Up

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    The Patriots pass defense statistics, 2012:

    Opp Comp %: 66.0% (26th)
    Opp Yds/Att: 8.1 (29th)
    Opp Pass TD: 19 (29th)
    Opp Passer Rating: 97.3 (28th)
    Opp Pass Yds/G: 285 (29th)

    In other words, the Pats have one of the worst four pass defenses in the NFL, pretty much by every metric available. What they do have going for them is this:

    (1) They force a lot of turnovers: 10 INT (6th) and 13 FUM (the 23 takeaways is #3 in the NFL).

    (2) They are actually not bad at sacking the QB: 20 (16th).

    So those two things (especially the turnovers) mask their pass defense deficiencies, believe it or not. If they were even an average team in getting turnovers, the pass defense numbers would look even worse.
     
  9. Marqui

    Marqui In the Starting Line-Up

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    Shoot, I would take pathetic at this point. Their pass defense right now is almost non-existent.
     
  10. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    The defense isn't that bad compared to what, exactly?
     
  11. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, the defense is that bad. The greatest strength of the D is the Patriots O.
     
  12. Finnishfan

    Finnishfan Practice Squad Player

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    I COMPLETELY agree with all the ideas here.

    My problem with our defense is simple:

    On offense, we play better than our talent level indicates. That is partly TB and partly scheme, which both elevate certain individuals to a higher level.

    On defense, we do exactly the opposite. I don't think our talent level sucks. When I watch individual players on replays and study their play, we have some really good players here. But our schemes suck and we lack passion.

    1) Schemes suck = BB and Patricia take the blame. Mostly BB.

    The philosophy of disguising coverages (which is what BB's HOF gameplan from SB XXV is strongly based upon) is so hard to execute in modern football, becouse it requires MASSIVE talent. Back in 1990, any scrub could play CB and do a decent job, becouse you could grab and pull jerseys all you wanted.

    These days good DBs are usually specialists, who excel in man or zone, press or off, inside or outside, but not in all of them. There are only few guys in this league that I can think of, who do a decent job on all coverage roles/schemes with these modern rules.

    We dont have any of them here.

    Also the "win by coverage" approach is an outdated concept, because thanks to all the rule changes, QBs can now fit the balls into tighter windows than ever and they don't have to worry about protecting the receiver. Goodell handles the protection duties these days. Back in 1990, QBs didnt throw into tight coverages becouse they were afraid that the DB or Safety would pop the receivers head off. Back then, the "defenseless receiver" didn't exist even as a joke.

    The pass rushing schemes have never interested BB, at least not in a way that would have shown up. But if you ask anyone about the current list of great defensive coordinators in the league, you will hear Dick Lebeau, Wade Phillips, Dom Capers, Steve Spagnuolo and even the Ryan Brothers. They all put as much emphasis on pass rushing schemes as they do on coverage schemes, perhaps even more.

    Now I don't know how long of a "leash" BB has on Patricia, but since this problem existed before Patricia, I'm not ready to put most of the blame on him. Especially since BB is known for his coverage emphasis.

    2) Lack of passions = the new Patriot way takes the blame.

    The big reason is the atmosphere of professionalism we have in the building. "Just do your job", like we have heard BB say so often. That works ok with the offense, becouse they dont need to make bang-bang plays to do well. Defense needs the angry bird -hormones and kamikaze mentality every now and then to install fear to the opponents.

    IMO, 1 dumb penalty every now and then is ok, if you also deliver lots of hard and clean hits. That was also the old Patriot way, when we have Rodney Harrison and Tedy Bruschi playing on the borderline of dirty and hard. But with the new Patriot way, 1 dumb penalty might be enough for a trip to the doghouse.

    The locker room and player interviews they dont show the true passion and aggression they used to, instead they always make it look like its offseason.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  13. Kenneth Sims

    Kenneth Sims On the Game Day Roster

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    Thank you so much Finnishfan! You said everything I've wanted to say on the subject but lacked the coherency to do so.
     
  14. Marqui

    Marqui In the Starting Line-Up

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    Great post. Bill should hire Rex to be his D coordinator when he gets fired next year :D
     
  15. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm probably less despondent about the defense than most.

    My take:

    1. Against Buffalo the defense was indeed THAT bad ... but that was 1 game. I'm going to assume rust coming off a bye week, being flat, problems matching up with Buffalo's quick backs and unorthodox offense, and the coaching staff persisting in using a soft zone which gave huge holes.

    2. Our pass defense has indeed been THAT bad all season. But, as I've argued in detail elsewhere, the move of McCourty to FS plus having a guy in Talib who allows the Pats to play press-man with a cover-1 should allow for significant improvement - if the coaching staff will give up the soft zone nonsense.

    3. With 1 and 2 in mind, the overall defense has been average over the first 8 games, and only average because the terrible pass defense dragged it down. The run defense and turnover production have been excellent.

    It's clear to me that 2 things need to change for the defense to get better:

    1. Stop playing soft zone coverage and go to press-man with a deep cover-1 FS. To me that means Talib and Dennard outside (NO Arrington, please!) and McCourty as the deep FS.

    2. Get more pressure up front. In theory, #1 should facilitate #2, if the coaches are willing to stop being do conservative.
     
  16. brdmaverick

    brdmaverick In the Starting Line-Up

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    #32 Jersey

    1%er, your username is extremely applicable because I would imagine only 1% of Pats fans agree with your assessment of the defense.
     
  17. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Am I the only one who sees the irony in your 'proof' that the defense stinks is that they stopped the final drive of the game but you were worried and had no confidence?
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  18. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I keep hearing this cry for aggressive man to man defense. I keep wondering how you solve the problem that we can't cover long enough for the pass rush to get there, by exposing those same defenders to man coverage across the entire field, when they are struggling in zone.
    Zone with no pressure is a completion, man with no pressure is a big play.
     
  19. Kenneth Sims

    Kenneth Sims On the Game Day Roster

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    I'm optimistic that things will improve as well. I posted yesterday that I believe Belichick knows what he has to do to improve his pass defense. The question is whether he will allow himself to do it. The big test will be how the patriots defend spread formations with their nickel and dime schemes. They have a tendency to spook themselves and back off in these situations loosening the coverage and reducing the rush. They have to keep being aggressive having enough people around the LOS causing the confusion needed to boost the rush and tight enough coverage to not allow receivers to quickly become open.
     
  20. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    If the corners are jamming the receivers at the line wont that give the line more time to get to the QB?
     
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